Cheap guns/home defense

[MrAtom]

My town has really gone to crap. I never thought I'd need to actually buy a home defense weapon. I've got about a hundred bucks to spend now, but I can save up and buy something a little pricier next paycheck. I'm under 21, so it has to either be a shotgun or a rifle. I have experience shooting and handling firearms, but it's been a while.

I've been thinking of a Mosin, it's the ideal cheap gun for a lot of people, but if I can spend just a little more and get something that doesn't have such a heavy trigger pull, that'd be neat. Also, being a largeish caliber rifle with a lot of stopping power, I'd rather not. I want to disable someone in the event that I'd actually have to use it for defense, not kill them. A shotgun would be ideal for stopping a home intruder, but again, I'm really not into killing people.

Another thing I've considered is a crossbow, or a compound bow, but it's less efficient/can't cycle through rounds as quickly as a gun.

I've also considered bear mace or a stun gun, but a lot of the criminals around here are drug addicts, so there's a lot of variables there.

Anyone here have any recommendations on cheap home defense? If not I'll probably go with the mosin.

[Dozer]

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/

[Ghostt]

Any old 12 gauge shotgun, load some 00 or 000 bucks, 3" loads will do you just fine or if that's too much 410 with same loads 00 or 000 buck, Mossberg used to make a 410 especially for home defense.

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shot...00-hs410/50359

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shot...00-hs410/50359

http://www.mossberg.com/products/sho...g-500-tactical

http://www.mossberg.com/products/sho...pecial-purpose

http://www.mossberg.com/products/sho...pecial-purpose

[adouglas]

You can also get "less than lethal" rounds for shotguns.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index....uge-lesslethal

They're controversial. There are advantages. You're less likely to put others in your home, and your neighbors, at risk. You're also less likely to kill someone... an action that has very serious consequences even if you're in the right.

When (not if) the incident goes to court, what do you think the view of a homeowner who put less-than-lethal rounds in his gun would be? If you were sitting on a jury, how would you view that information?

The disadvantage is that 00 buck or a deer slug will end things RIGHT NOW, while a less-than-lethal round won't.

Will these things stop someone? Well, that's the question. Ask yourself this: if you got shot with one, would you carry on or run away?

This guy did a test with rock salt and bean bag rounds. Despite the bean bag punching a hole in the meat and shattering a rib of his test target, he felt it wouldn't be enough to deter someone. Not sure I agree with that... you decide. What would you do if this happened to you?

Link to original page on YouTube.

[snot]

I agree with ghosts, just the noise of it clambering a round will make someone run. I may regret this but... I firmly believe 2 things: dead men tell no tale and if you come into my home I can only assume you mean harm to my family and myself. I will shoot to kill.

[Ghostt]

I'm sorry I missed the non-lethal part, I live in a small country town, so the rules is a bit different here. The bean bag round work extremely well, at as deterrent, but just in case I'd have a 00 buck somewhere in the tube, as the third or forth round in the the tube, incase the bad guy is hopped up on something, these days you never know, trust me been there, done that.

[tmds3]

Something else to think about as well, there have been cases where a thief that was wounded by the homeowner later sued the homeowner for the injuries and although I believe all the cases were eventually thrown out you still have to fight them.

Just my .02

[jkv45]

Skip any type of high power rifle like a Mosin for home defense. It can easily penetrate walls and send a round into the next room or even the neighboring house.

Shotgun would be your best choice if you can't have a handgun. I agree the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round is a very good deterrent. As far as non-lethal rounds go - no way. If the intruder has a gun, and you have non-lethal rounds you might as well have a big stick. You are only going to use deadly force if you need to, and you need to have it available if you plan to actually defend yourself.

One disadvantage of a shotgun, or any long-gun, is its awkwardness in close-quarters. It's also easy for the bad guy to grab the barrel if you find yourself too close.

Know the laws in your state, and know when you can and cannot use deadly force.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Skip any type of high power rifle like a Mosin for home defense. It can easily penetrate walls and send a round into the next room or even the neighboring house.

Absolutely this. Add in the fact that you'll more than likely be too high-strung to hit anything in the event that you'd need to use a rifle and a shotgun is simply the better choice. Also, owning a few Mosins myself, you wouldn't want that bolt sticking on you in the even that you really needed to use it.

[Ghostt]

Dead men, don't testify around here as long as you don't shoot them in the back, it's pretty much an open and shut case, due to they know whom the thieves are already, so it's like performing a community service.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Skip any type of high power rifle like a Mosin for home defense. It can easily penetrate walls and send a round into the next room or even the neighboring house.

Shotgun would be your best choice if you can't have a handgun. I agree the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round is a very good deterrent. As far as non-lethal rounds go - no way. If the intruder has a gun, and you have non-lethal rounds you might as well have a big stick. You are only going to use deadly force if you need to, and you need to have it available if you plan to actually defend yourself.

One disadvantage of a shotgun, or any long-gun, is its awkwardness in close-quarters. It's also easy for the bad guy to grab the barrel if you find yourself too close.

Know the laws in your state, and know when you can and cannot use deadly force.

100% agree I have my 12 gauge shotgun loaded with a mixture of 00 buck, and slugs first two are 00, then slugs.

[MrAtom]

Yeah I didn't think about shooting through walls. my ex girlfriends uncle actually died like that. Dude was just walking around outside and a deer slug hit him in the chest from someone's house. Mosin is out of the question. I think nonlethal rounds in a shotgun are a good idea. I'll go window shopping later on. I've never fired a shotgun before. Anything I should expect?

[Ghostt]

In a case like your, I would personally recommend a 410 something along the lines of the Mossberg home defense series, light, light recoil, easily controllable, no over penetration.

[chrly]

If someone has entered my home and is a threat, I want it over with. I have seen the results of attempting to deal with a drug crazed individual in a rational manner...The wrong man died.. The intruder died too but you would not believe the extinct of his injuries before he succumbed to them.. And as for scaring one away, you have simply let them know you are there...

[Alchemist]

Originally Posted by Dozer

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/

As much trash talk as hi-points take, they make a decent, affordable firearm. Be sure to include $ in the budget for ammunition to train with. The firearm is useless if you wait until your life is on the line to fire it. You're FAR better off with a bare-bones gun (like the hi-point) and a ton of ammo than the Gucci firearm and no training. Fear not the man who owns many guns; fear the one who has ONE gun and knows how to use it.

I absolutely would NOT take a less-lethal shotgun round to a gunfight. It's the same as bringing a knife to a gunfight. Check your local laws, but in most places, pulling the trigger on a less-lethal round requires the same justification as buckshot/slugs (lethal). If you're in a situation where it's kill or be killed, why on earth would you want to risk it?

Additionally, nothing against shotguns, but they require significantly more aim than most people give them credit for. Rule of thumb is 1" of spread for every yard. Inside, if your max range is 10' across, you're looking at a 3-3.5" pattern. Just food for thought.

RE: penetration issue
Check out this site: http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Even 22LR will penetrate multiple layers of drywall before stopping.

My recommendation:
- A hi point carbine
- A case (1000 rounds) of 9mm (for practice)
- A box (or two) of JHP ammunition (for defense)
- Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (if - God forbid - you have to shoot someone, you MAY not be charged. On the other hand, I'd rather have-and-not-need-than-need-and-not-have when it comes to legal representation. It costs the police/DA comparatively little to take your case to a grand jury)

OR
- 12 Gauge (I'm partial to the Winchester SXP, but an old Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 will do just nicely, and can be had for ~$300)
- A case of ammo for practice
- A box of Remington Tactical Buckshot (reduced recoil) (for defense)
- Some level of training


TO COMPOUND THE MATTER
Thing about hardening the target. You don't need to to spill your home defense situation to the world here, but I'll put out some points to consider:
- Do you own a dog? Not saying you need to run out and buy an "attack dog", but even having a good lab/retriever around is a good early warning and deterrent
- How well lit is the exterior? Motion lights?
- It won't save you, but may act as a deterrent, and provide evidence later - camera system (also expensive, so low priority if you're on a budget)
- What stands between your house and the road? Do you have a fence? Is it locked? How easily/quick can someone go from driving down the road to being at the door? How quickly can they get through the door?
- Do you maintain a set pattern of life? (ie, do you leave the house at the same time every day? Do you routinely go out at night?)

Think about all of this from the opposite side... if you were going to break into someone's house (in this case yours), what factors would you need to know to do it successfully?

RECOMMENDED READING
The Gift of Fear - Gavin de Becker
The book covers how to listen to what your brain is telling your about your current situation - why you feel scared, why you instinctively distrust people, etc. It's a good read for life in general, and allows you to read the situation more effectively than simply freaking out at every shadow.

[cadd]

Mossberg 500. Get the shortest barrel that's legal in your town/state.

20ga???

I would not use 12ga for home defense. Especially 00 or larger. You miss the intruder, not only is it going to fly through the wall into another room, it'll most likely fly out of that room, through the siding of your house and into your neighbor's house.

People underestimate how much speed and power a round has.

Always know your target and beyond. Easier said than done. Especially at 3am when you hear a loud clang outside your bedroom and you're half asleep.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Hero Danny]

Best home defense system I can think of.



A lot more expensive than a gun though. But no one can break into your house and sneak up on a guard dog without the thing barking like a maniac.

[Rifleman]

I saw a picture of "Storm'n" Norman Schwarzkopf at his HQ in Irac, you know what he had next to the bed... a frickin shotgun. That guy could have any weapon in existence, and he had a Remington pump action.

So yes, I'm going to recommend a shotgun for inside the house defensive use.

I have a 20ga pump action Remington 870

I have it loaded with #7-1/2 (bird shot) with 000 or a slug as the last shell in the mag

I have a flashlight mounted under the barrel

and I'm using the deer slayer barrel (18.5 inches).

It's a short, compact rig. light on target. bird shot won't over penetrate, racking a shot gun slide is the "international" sound for freeze or die. 20ga can be handled by anyone over 13 y/o.

Used pump action shotgun... all the way.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Alchemist

Additionally, nothing against shotguns, but they require significantly more aim than most people give them credit for. Rule of thumb is 1" of spread for every yard. Inside, if your max range is 10' across, you're looking at a 3-3.5" pattern. Just food for thought.

.

3 - 3.5 inch spread is still better than 9mm (~.35")

+ shotguns are much easier to aim and fire than a handgun. Aiming a handgun isn't all that difficult but firing one accurately takes some know how and practice.

If you get a carbine 9mm that nulls the length of a shotgun. You can get a tactical style shotgun that is quite compact. A shotgun can easily be used as a mele weapon for any reason be it, firearm malfunction, user error, out of ammo you name it.

Person Defense Weapon, I really don't think you can beat a shotgun for reasons other people have mentioned + more.

Long rifle... absolutely not, a carbine.... meh, shotgun does it better in any close quarters confrontation, pistol.... they are great but you need to put in some time to actually become proficient.

Right now my PDF is springfield xD .45 with a tactical light under it. I like it for myself but I don't like the idea of that being my wife's only go to if I am not around. I would much rather her have a shotgun. It has been in my plans for some time to pick up a tactical 12 but I just haven't gotten around to it.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

I saw a picture of "Storm'n" Norman Schwarzkopf at his HQ in Irac, you know what he had next to the bed... a frickin shotgun. That guy could have any weapon in existence, and he had a Remington pump action.

So yes, I'm going to recommend a shotgun for inside the house defensive use.

I have a 20ga pump action Remington 870

I have it loaded with #7-1/2 (bird shot) with 000 or a slug as the last shell in the mag

I have a flashlight mounted under the barrel

and I'm using the deer slayer barrel (18.5 inches).

It's a short, compact rig. light on target. bird shot won't over penetrate, racking a shot gun slide is the "international" sound for freeze or die. 20ga can be handled by anyone over 13 y/o.

Used pump action shotgun... all the way.

^this setup... nailed it

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Yeah I didn't think about shooting through walls. my ex girlfriends uncle actually died like that. Dude was just walking around outside and a deer slug hit him in the chest from someone's house. Mosin is out of the question. I think nonlethal rounds in a shotgun are a good idea. I'll go window shopping later on. I've never fired a shotgun before. Anything I should expect?

I'd rethink that part.

If the racking of the shotgun doesn't make them take off you may have a gunfight on your hands - and I wouldn't count on non-lethal rounds for the win.

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I'd rethink that part.

If the racking of the shotgun doesn't make them take off you may have a gunfight on your hands - and I wouldn't count on non-lethal rounds for the win.

This is perhaps the more important part of the post... (I totally neglected it in the above post)

The line between lethal and non-lethal is the door jamb of my house... if you are on the outside, I don't shoot, if you are on the inside... all bets are off.

This is something you need to think about BEFORE you select a weapon, learn to use it, train, etc.

you must train your mind, and have the will to fight, the will to protect your life and that of your family. You need to think about this when you are wide awake, sitting calmly at the kitchen table with a cup of coffee and all your brain cells working...

when will you shoot, where is the line you draw... I can not draw it for you, it must be something you can defend in your own mind, to yourself, to your God... as well as to a jury. work the situations over in your head, eliminate all of the grey area... there is only black and white, when the razor sharp line between the two is crossed by a perp...

then act decisively, with out hesitation, completely, shock and awe, no quarter give, no Marquess of Queensburry rules, double tap to the center of mass, one to the head, move, asses the situation. the wounded animal is the most dangerous... once the Melee' starts, the perp isn't thinking about jail, or police, or escape... they are fighting for their life.

I can not tell you where your line is, but you need to think about it, you need to draw it, and you need to train and think accordingly.

if you are unprepared, or unwilling to use deadly force... then please do not have it available... only bad can come of it.

[Worldtraveller]

A gun is not a home security system. Statistically, and realistically, get an alarm system for your home.

If you just want to buy a gun for shooting at the range, or whatever, that's fine. But really, don't use 'home security' to rationalize it.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Worldtraveller

A gun is not a home security system. Statistically, and realistically, get an alarm system for your home.

If you just want to buy a gun for shooting at the range, or whatever, that's fine. But really, don't use 'home security' to rationalize it.

"Security" is a pretty general word to many people.

These are all part of my "security" by my rational redneck definition.
Home perimeter - cameras w/ motion sensitive push notes to my phone and dog
Home entrance/access points security - alarm system, me, dog, gun w/ ONE warning shot (maybe....)
Post home entrance/access points - dog, ME, gun (all shots double tap center mass until down)

By the time the police get to my house or alarm force "voice threatens" (ummm yea right) the intruder out... I will already have it under control. My biggest beef... I will most likely loose my dog in the scuffle, because he is my "time & space" maker.

[csmith12]

OH! Check you local laws... make sure you put up proper signage as required or to cover your back side. Ya know; Beware of Dog, No Trespassing, ect.. ect.. and don't forget the yard sign that comes with your alarm system. That alone may get your house skipped for an easier target.

[JohnnyBravo]

I have an alarm system named Romeo... If you come in my house unwanted you had better hope he gets you or turns you around before the toy beside my bed puts you to sleep. .410 slugs out of a pocket pistol.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by csmith12

OH! Check you local laws... make sure you put up proper signage as required or to cover your back side. Ya know; Beware of Dog, No Trespassing, ect.. ect.. and don't forget the yard sign that comes with your alarm system. That alone may get your house skipped for an easier target.

You mean like "Forget the dog, beware of the owner" or "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" ?

I never advertise I have guns. Anyone that needs to know will find out soon enough.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by jkv45

You mean like "Forget the dog, beware of the owner" or "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" ?

I never advertise I have guns. Anyone that needs to know will find out soon enough.

Duh... never advertise ya got guns, might as well put a target on your house. Just saying the signage may be a deterrent for the spontaneous intruder and work in your benefit with insurance, 5.0 and courts if ever needed.

Beware of Dog
No Trespassing
ADT Sign

Offer no signage of what one might find inside, aside a more prepared resident than one's neighbor. ijs... I don't wish ill on anyone but....

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Duh... never advertise ya got guns, might as well put a target on your house. Just saying the signage may be a deterrent for the spontaneous intruder and work in your benefit with insurance, 5.0 and courts if ever needed.

Beware of Dog
No Trespassing
ADT Sign

Offer no signage of what one might find inside, aside a more prepared resident than one's neighbor. ijs... I don't wish ill on anyone but....

Is that like putting a big "Harley Davidson" stickers on your enclosed trailer...then wondering why the contents got stolen?

Ya - it's need to know...

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by Worldtraveller

A gun is not a home security system. Statistically, and realistically, get an alarm system for your home.

If you just want to buy a gun for shooting at the range, or whatever, that's fine. But really, don't use 'home security' to rationalize it.

The cops around here are horrible. They're all so jaded that they don't really care anymore. If this were another down with a decent police force, yeah, I think that'd be a solid idea. But not here.

[Alchemist]

Originally Posted by Worldtraveller

A gun is not a home security system. Statistically, and realistically, get an alarm system for your home.

If you just want to buy a gun for shooting at the range, or whatever, that's fine. But really, don't use 'home security' to rationalize it.

In most localities, over 95% of burglar alarms are false alarms, to the point where in many, police have stopped responding to them entirely. Of all the measures at hand for home security, calling ADT is LAST on my list...

Originally Posted by jkv45

I'd rethink that part.

If the racking of the shotgun doesn't make them take off you may have a gunfight on your hands - and I wouldn't count on non-lethal rounds for the win.

Originally Posted by jkv45

You mean like "Forget the dog, beware of the owner" or "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" ?

I never advertise I have guns. Anyone that needs to know will find out soon enough.

Originally Posted by Rifleman

This is perhaps the more important part of the post... (I totally neglected it in the above post)

The line between lethal and non-lethal is the door jamb of my house... if you are on the outside, I don't shoot, if you are on the inside... all bets are off.

This is something you need to think about BEFORE you select a weapon, learn to use it, train, etc.

you must train your mind, and have the will to fight, the will to protect your life and that of your family. You need to think about this when you are wide awake, sitting calmly at the kitchen table with a cup of coffee and all your brain cells working...

when will you shoot, where is the line you draw... I can not draw it for you, it must be something you can defend in your own mind, to yourself, to your God... as well as to a jury. work the situations over in your head, eliminate all of the grey area... there is only black and white, when the razor sharp line between the two is crossed by a perp...

then act decisively, with out hesitation, completely, shock and awe, no quarter give, no Marquess of Queensburry rules, double tap to the center of mass, one to the head, move, asses the situation. the wounded animal is the most dangerous... once the Melee' starts, the perp isn't thinking about jail, or police, or escape... they are fighting for their life.

I can not tell you where your line is, but you need to think about it, you need to draw it, and you need to train and think accordingly.

if you are unprepared, or unwilling to use deadly force... then please do not have it available... only bad can come of it.

Quoted for truth.

Along those lines, I'll also add that you should be cautious what you say here and to friends in real life. IF you're ever charged for anything regarding use of force in defense, the good old fashioned Clint Eastwood tough talk may come back to bite you in the backside.

And since it can't be said enough - CHECK YOUR LOCAL LAWS. Just checked your location and Cali has some really funky/restrictive stuff on the books. Make sure you know them and act within them.

[Alchemist]

RE: security systems...

From DOJ: http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/pdf/e05021556.pdf
Fairfax County False Alarm policy: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...itysystems.htm
Cleveland False Alarm problems: http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-n...eveland-police
LAPD won't answer alarms: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/burglar-...s-wont-answer/
CO Springs: http://kdvr.com/2014/01/15/springs-p...urglar-alarms/
San Jose: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...urglar-alarms/

There are more if you care to search...

[Alchemist]

Originally Posted by subxero

3 - 3.5 inch spread is still better than 9mm (~.35")

+ shotguns are much easier to aim and fire than a handgun. Aiming a handgun isn't all that difficult but firing one accurately takes some know how and practice.

If you get a carbine 9mm that nulls the length of a shotgun. You can get a tactical style shotgun that is quite compact. A shotgun can easily be used as a mele weapon for any reason be it, firearm malfunction, user error, out of ammo you name it.

Person Defense Weapon, I really don't think you can beat a shotgun for reasons other people have mentioned + more.

Long rifle... absolutely not, a carbine.... meh, shotgun does it better in any close quarters confrontation, pistol.... they are great but you need to put in some time to actually become proficient.

Right now my PDF is springfield xD .45 with a tactical light under it. I like it for myself but I don't like the idea of that being my wife's only go to if I am not around. I would much rather her have a shotgun. It has been in my plans for some time to pick up a tactical 12 but I just haven't gotten around to it.

I'm not saying a shotgun is a BAD option - far from it! But I don't want MrAtom to continue with the mistaken notion that "shotguns don't have to be aimed". More forgiving <> miracle gun. Others have their merits (which can be hashed out in another forum)... for a first-time user, a shotgun is a good option.

I'll throw out the caveat again though... good doesn't equal miraculous, and training is required. Both to understand the shot pattern at distances, and to get used to fully cycling the firearm. Very few things will stop a pump-action shotgun... short-stroking is one of them.

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by Dozer

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/

I'm from Ohio, where these guns are made, and I've never heard anything but bad things about the quality.
From what I've heard their 9mm handguns had a common problem with firing inadvertently.

BTW I own both a Beretta PX-4 9mm and a Remington 870 12-guage also in the process of building an AR

[Dozer]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

I'm from Ohio, where these guns are made, and I've never heard anything but bad things about the quality.
From what I've heard their 9mm handguns had a common problem of firing inadvertently

I usually loaded mine when I was already pointing downrange. Real cheap though. Dependability was not the question...aaand i sold it after twice firing inadverently after chambering at the range.

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by Dozer

I usually loaded mine when I was already pointing downrange. Real cheap though. Dependability was not the question...aaand i sold it after twice firing inadverently after chambering at the range.

Aaaannd, there you go.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by Dozer

aaand i sold it after twice firing inadverently after chambering at the range.

Yep. DO NOT WANT.

[snot]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

I'm from Ohio, where these guns are made, and I've never heard anything but bad things about the quality.
From what I've heard their 9mm handguns had a common problem with firing inadvertently.

BTW I own both a Beretta PX-4 9mm and a Remington 870 12-guage also in the process of building an AR

Start an AR build thread?

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by snot

Start an AR build thread?

Yeah, I might get in on that. Right now I'm just talking to some friends that know more about it than I do, and what parts to order. The amount of options is a little overwhelming, to say the least, for those that don't know as much.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

Yeah, I might get in on that. Right now I'm just talking to some friends that know more than I do about it than I do, and what parts to order. The amount of options is a little overwhelming, to say the least, for those that don't know as much.

If you want some 3D printed parts, I've got access to a 3D printer. I could print some off and send 'em out to you. Just send me the .stl's