First Track Day!!! And whats with my BP?

[aelath]

First Track Day was incredible!!! My brother-in-law and I took our bikes down to Talladega Grand Prix Raceway in AL last weekend. We rolled in and had no idea what to expect (first for both of us). Everyone was incredibly nice, taking bikes and riding, loaning us stuff we should have brought. Very little ego, lots of good riders. I've just been riding since January, so this was a real treat... got to put my "Twist of the Wrist II" knowledge into action. Im all smiles and could talk for hours about this...

Question: Having really not ridden another bike, whats with the posture of the pre-gen? I am 6'2" with a 34" inseam, 200lbs, and decently long arms. Being perched on my bike comfortably for corners I knew I wasn't going to be tucked over, but when I saw pictures of myself I was genuinely surprised how upright I was sitting on the bike. I looked like I was riding a scooter around the track at 40mph. I know practice and time, etc... BUT why is this? Is it:

a) My larger-than-ideal body size for the pre-gen?
b) Just how it is for most and I just need clip-ons and rear sets?
c) Just my form, and I need to bend those elbows and "get on it"?
d) Some combination of the above?

Final thought: I want to go back to the track (right now!!) and I think that maybe I will get a 600cc bike in the future as I get more into track riding. Would a different bike help give me a more aggressive body position? cycle-ero seems to tell me "yes".

Images, and more located here if you want to look: http://www.highsidephoto.com/p216137331
(I was the only one to bring a 250cc bike)

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by aelath

First Track Day was incredible!!! My brother-in-law and I took our bikes down to Talladega Grand Prix Raceway in AL last weekend. We rolled in and had no idea what to expect (first for both of us). Everyone was incredibly nice, taking bikes and riding, loaning us stuff we should have brought. Very little ego, lots of good riders. I've just been riding since January, so this was a real treat... got to put my "Twist of the Wrist II" knowledge into action. Im all smiles and could talk for hours about this...
I looked like I was riding a scooter around the track at 40mph. I know practice and time, etc... BUT why is this? Is it:

a) My larger-than-ideal body size for the pre-gen?
b) Just how it is for most and I just need clip-ons and rear sets?
c) Just my form, and I need to bend those elbows and "get on it"?
d) Some combination of the above?

Final thought: I want to go back to the track (right now!!) and I think that maybe I will get a 600cc bike

Your pictures didn't make the post. There is nothing wrong with riding around looking like your on a scooter (as long as you're on a scooter).

600 is out of the question until you make riding around on a 250 look like your on a 1000.

[afelotreyu]

Your body defiantly looks big for that bike

In my bad inexperience I think you should approach the bike the same way you would with any other bike, forget about your size and concentrate on body position and form.

1) Move your butt.
I think this is the key for riding on track and maybe at times in the street, learning to move your butt and to get confident on sliding the ass out of the seat is key. (I did a race course on a 125, tiny bike for everyone and those little machines can handle a person your size, is all about you learning how to move on the bike)

2) you ass needs to be as far back as possible

3) tuck in!
it looks stupid, specially on smaller bikes but you should still do it!!. by doing so you reduce drag which means more speed.

4) elbows can come closer to the tank, no matter the bike the elbows are usually against the tank because that way you keep less places to allow air in to create drag.

Your bike is fine, just approach it as a full SuperSport bike and take the body as your main point of focus, the bells and whistles can come later, concentrate on you getting better

My personal approach to track from day 1 has always been about dragging my knee and doing so right, so the first time I was in track with my own bike, is all I was looking for, I can't say that my speed is amazing.. but I am happy doing my speed, I am comfortable and I keep on slowly progressing


Congrats on your first track day hopefully more will come!

[sharky nrk]

so the long and short of it is......

your a big guy, standard 250 (pregen especially) ergo are not ideal for track, and lastly .......

almost everyone has sucky BP for their first trackday ....


just keep at it, work on improving one thing at a time

[csmith12]

Bottom line, you're a bigger guy on smaller bike. Your gunna have to work "extra hard" to get good bp, especially with the stock bits. If you plan on continuing to track your 250, sure... you can get rearsets and clipons to address part of the ergos but look farther. The seat & suspension will need to be address to complete the setup. Even the angle of the clipons are a concern. And even after all that, you still may feel cramped up on the bike. I have seen tall riders sit on the passenger seat to get the bp they wanted. Also, take a look at the other riders bp, and re ask yourself if a bigger bike will magically fix your bp issues.

Don't be hard on yourself, I think your pics look just fine . Most everyone's first track day pics are somewhat less than gp riders and some realizations are made when we as riders see our pics and vids . Also, it seems most riders focus on the negative, so lemme ask you. What did you do well? How much progress did you make in a single day?

Get back out there and keep coming back with a smile.

[aelath]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The seat & suspension will need to be address to complete the setup... I have seen tall riders sit on the passenger seat to get the bp they wanted.

I hadn't even thought about changing the seat! I kept pushing myself back to the edge of the rider seat (up against the passenger seat bump), but I really wanted to go farther back. Interesting about tall guys sitting in the passenger seat!!

Yeah, I don't know about tuning my suspension. I did sonic springs and 15 wt fork oil up front (just 'cause everything was too soft on the street), and put a 97 zx6r shock on the rear. The rear has a bunch of adjustments, just gotta figure that out.

[aelath]

Thanks for the comments! Really appreciate everyone taking a minute. Sorry about the images, I'm just a software engineer, not a rocket scientist.

I definitely felt like I evolved from the beginning to the end of the day. Can't wait to take my pre-gen back out there and put in some more practice.

As far as what I did right: I was super relaxed in my arms, shoulders, and back. All week my legs have been soar from gripping the tank as a consequence. And being relaxed on the bars really helped me stay calm and work on my throttle control. I even started sliding off the seat around corners during the last 2 sessions, and felt comfortable with that. Of course it was only a couple inches, but its a start. I will have some nice things to work on when I go back.

I gotta be honest, I think I am hooked.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by aelath

Sorry about the images, I'm just a software engineer, not a rocket scientist.

This is you right? I am in the software field too!

[aelath]

Originally Posted by csmith12

This is you right? I am in the software field too!

Haha! "Access denied on this server". Welp, thats what I get for not hosting my own.

[afelotreyu]

I am not trying to promote taking pictures without paying the photographer, but the page you are linking to is secured and the server wont allow external links to pictures sort of to encourage people to buy them

http://www.highsidephoto.com/cdn/pub...9VTaUK7kD_X3g=

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Bottom line, you're a bigger guy on smaller bike. Your gunna have to work "extra hard" to get good bp, especially with the stock bits. If you plan on continuing to track your 250, sure... you can get rearsets and clipons to address part of the ergos but look farther. The seat & suspension will need to be address to complete the setup. Even the angle of the clipons are a concern. And even after all that, you still may feel cramped up on the bike. I have seen tall riders sit on the passenger seat to get the bp they wanted. Also, take a look at the other riders bp, and re ask yourself if a bigger bike will magically fix your bp issues.

Don't be hard on yourself, I think your pics look just fine . Most everyone's first track day pics are somewhat less than gp riders and some realizations are made when we as riders see our pics and vids . Also, it seems most riders focus on the negative, so lemme ask you. What did you do well? How much progress did you make in a single day?

Get back out there and keep coming back with a smile.

I'm not even tall and I have to sit on the passenger seat of my pregen 250 to get the BP I want, was really awkward trying to hang off and move around the bike until I found that sweet spot

Also when it comes to clip ons they can be a pita to set up right, expect to spend 30min installing them then another couple hours adjusting them to be just right

[aelath]

Originally Posted by afelotreyu

the page you are linking to is secured and the server wont allow external links to pictures sort of to encourage people to buy them

Right! And I should buy them, great photographers. Without their skills this thread wouldn't even exist. Keep on, all you photographers out there. We appreciate you.

[afelotreyu]

Originally Posted by aelath

Right! And I should buy them, great photographers. Without their skills this thread wouldn't even exist. Keep on, all you photographers out there. We appreciate you.

I like to sometimes go to track and take pictures as well. I don't sell them, I do post them for people to see them on the local forums.

The photographers are awesome and thanks to them you, me and everyone else can see themselves and understand what is going on wrong, so yes a little support never goes unnoticed

[aelath]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I'm not even tall and I have to sit on the passenger seat of my pregen 250 to get the BP I want, was really awkward trying to hang off and move around the bike until I found that sweet spot

Did you do any seat modifications for this? And do you have any pictures you can share of riding while sitting that far back? Im really interested in moving my body farther back.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by aelath

Right! And I should buy them, great photographers. Without their skills this thread wouldn't even exist. Keep on, all you photographers out there. We appreciate you.

Trust me gentlemen, I aint trying to short anyone anything. Many times, I have bought my pics, as well as my friends pics too. Ever venture out to the corner worker stations for a chat? /hint They can tell you many things from their vantage point.

[sharky nrk]

If you go onto the photogs page and look your were on track with newgen ninjette (yellow too lol) with clipons and rearsets it looks like. It can give you some indication of the the difference between what you are doing and what they are doing.

Overall the MO is still the same.
- get your upper body down and support with core
- scoot your butt back, a comfortable distance so you can use your legs properly to support
- one cheek on the seat shifted to the inside
- exaggerate the head, out and low; kiss the mirror - you would rather your head be farther out then your butt, not the opposite
-outside knee and elbow anchored onto the outside tank
-inside leg with the triangle of light, open hip, ball on peg
-keep your shoulders and hips square with the bike
-think about shifting and sliding on the seat like a flat board left to right, not rotating
-soft arms and hands, screwdriver position on the inside arm

It seems like alot, and if you try and do it all at once and focus on it all at once, your not going to be able to focus on everything else. Pick one or two items on the list and focus on it until its muscle memory, then move to the next. It will all come together

then you get the red mist and crash like me lol

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by aelath

Did you do any seat modifications for this? And do you have any pictures you can share of riding while sitting that far back? Im really interested in moving my body farther back.

@csmith12 may have a picture that shows this but I don't have one that I can think of off the top of my head as most of my pics on that bike are me hanging off and you can't really tell as much of a difference then. Basically I'm just sitting farther back on the pregen banana seat. On my 300 I sit as far back as the regular seat goes and I'm good with that because the ergonomics of the two bikes are different to me (the 300 being physically bigger)

No I did not do any seat modifications to the seat, May I recommend that you sit on your bike w/the kickstand down obv and just play around to see what makes you most comfortable on the bike to move around. Start with a fist between your crotch and the tank and move backwards or forwards as you feel necessary to properly lock into the bike, it's hard to explain but you should know when you're properly comfortable with the position and you can hang off easily without using your hands (crucial that you aren't relying on your hands to keep you on the bike)

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

If you go onto the photogs page and look your were on track with newgen ninjette (yellow too lol) with clipons and rearsets it looks like. It can give you some indication of the the difference between what you are doing and what they are doing.

Overall the MO is still the same.
- get your upper body down and support with core
- scoot your butt back, a comfortable distance so you can use your legs properly to support
- one cheek on the seat shifted to the inside
- exaggerate the head, out and low; kiss the mirror - you would rather your head be farther out then your butt, not the opposite
-outside knee and elbow anchored onto the outside tank
-inside leg with the triangle of light, open hip, ball on peg
-keep your shoulders and hips square with the bike
-think about shifting and sliding on the seat like a flat board left to right, not rotating
-soft arms and hands, screwdriver position on the inside arm

It seems like alot, and if you try and do it all at once and focus on it all at once, your not going to be able to focus on everything else. Pick one or two items on the list and focus on it until its muscle memory, then move to the next. It will all come together

then you get the red mist and crash like me lol

I spent two days working on that list, it made such a massive difference to my riding that I was shocked. Had to clear up some of that red mist and crash before I could focus on it though

[csmith12]

I think I got a few.

@aelath & @Sirref & @choneofakind (because I used his pic)

Here are some pics that my daughter got while we were out. In the context of this thread, I chose 3 pics;

1st pic: Chone on his pregen, he is a smaller rider, but linka lanky
2nd pic: Sirref on a bigger bike (my r6), I noticed the difference in bp nearly immediately
3rd pic: Sirref on his pregen

Before you render a judgement, as a track coach... I worked with both Chone and Sirref on their bp in the paddock. And, Sirref and I specifically went over seating position as it related to his pregen. But honestly, they deserve all the credit for puttin' in the work to get it done.

Snag up a coach!!! They can really help.

[aelath]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I think I got a few.
...
1st pic: Chone on his pregen, he is a smaller rider, but linka lanky
2nd pic: Sirref on a bigger bike (my r6), I noticed the difference in bp nearly immediately
3rd pic: Sirref on his pregen

Thanks a lot! Very helpful... I can see how far back Sirref is and how bent my arms should be. Im a visual learner, so seeing this AND seeing it on "my" bike is very helpful.

[csmith12]

It's always my pleasure to help when I can.

[snot]

I saw the pics, and I see what you mean. 1st off it was your first time and you kept it on two so congrats.
Body position will come in time. I am working on mine and I learned that how we feel we look and how we look are 2 different worlds. I am very short, I felt like I was 1/2 off the seat when really it was more like 1/4. I learned a lot from videos and photos after the fact. csmith12 is a very wise man, listen to him and you will do great.

[choneofakind]

I think it's a combo of A and C. Big rider on physically small bike with nearly standard riding position = awkward.

Think about it. You're taller than I am. (I'm the one on the green pregen in the white suit) Look how far out my elbows are in order to get my chest down-ish and my inside shoulder dropped. This will be even more extreme with you because my bars are clipons and are further forward than yours. Notice how far back I am, if you don't get back, it feels like your head is over the front wheel instead of over your hand. Weird feeling. I used to think a lot about seating position, but once you get used to it, you find that you can adapt your head/chest positioning to wherever you want it, regardless of where your butt is. Now I just worry about my chest and let my butt sit wherever it lands.

Now look at the second picture csmith12 posted. That Sirref on the R6. The bike is physically longer and wider than the ninjette, the bars are lower as well. Notice how this automatically sets him in a chest down and head forward position with less work?

I think your issue is also that you're new to track. It feels like you're hanging WAAAYYYYY off and you're really not. That's very normal.




Here's another picture Chris's daughter got, shows my BP from the back. Again, notice how wide the elbows go out for me because how short the bike is and how close the bars are to the seat. I wish they made the ninjette physically a full size bike

You can see how far down and out you have to get. look where the outside bar and the corner of the windscreen are in relation to my shoulders. You have to make a little bike fit a lanky rider by sitting way back, and exaggerating with the elbows to get your chest down. It feels like you're way hamming it up. Just remember to yourself, why are you hamming? because marquez.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Now look at the second picture csmith12 posted. That Sirref on the R6. The bike is physically longer and wider than the ninjette, the bars are lower as well. Notice how this automatically sets him in a chest down and head forward position with less work?

I think your issue is also that you're new to track. It feels like you're hanging WAAAYYYYY off and you're really not. That's very normal.

false, the bars on my 250 are actually lower than the bars on the r6 it's just that the seat is higher and the seating position is longer (front back, the bike felt like it fit me like a glove in terms of size) so I'm more easily able to be comfortable in the riding position. I still feel amazed at how easy the r6 was to ride, and ride at a reasonably quick pace as well, I didn't work it at all and I went just as quick as when I was (or at least felt like I was) hammering the 250 through the corners + keeping it pinned on the straights

yea, I feel as though everyone who goes to a track day will notice their body positioning being so far from what it feels like when they see the pictures, it's one of the reasons that I view pictures as such a critical part of the track riding experience, the other being that you get to show off to your friends when you finally get it just right