Adjusted chain slack, now I can't find neutral (and my clutch seems broken)

[brianosaur]

Hey gang. First bike, first attempt at maintenance, and it appears to have all gone wrong.

I was noticing a high-pitched buzzing noise when riding in anything above first gear. Diagnosed a loose chain as the problem. I used the guide from this forum to adjust the chain slack, which required about one and a half full turns of each chain adjusting bolt. I also took off the sprocket cover to see if there was any noticeable gunk buildup, which required removing the shifter from the output shaft. That's where things started to go wrong; I didn't make note of the alignment and placement of the shifter on the shaft.

So, I get everything put back together. Check the chain slack one more time, it's inside the 35mm-45mm line. Hop on the bike to try it out, but it's stuck in neutral, and the shifter is in the wrong place (obviously, because I hadn't made note of the original location). Shut the bike down, adjust the shifter, get back on the bike, and start it up. I'm able to go down into first, but can't get through to second while stationary (I now know this is due to the neutral lock). Somehow, I think I got up into second while not moving. But I can no longer get into neutral.

This is where things stand; the bike is in a gear (but I don't know which one). It will shift up, but won't shift down past the current gear. I think I'm in second, but maybe first. (I tried riding it to see if that would aid in the downshifting, but the bike couldn't work up enough speed from stationary to prevent a stall, which makes me think I'm stuck in a higher gear.) And, the clutch just stopped working 10 minutes ago, so when the bike is up on the center stand and I'm holding in the lever, the back wheel is in motion at idle (but it's not going that fast).

Any advice? I don't want to believe that my first attempt at maintenance (other than lubing the chain) completely screwed up my bike, but that's the way it looks to me.

(edit) I put the shift pedal upside-down. I'm an idiot. But it's fixed now. I'll leave this post up as a monument to my stupidity.

[DmbShn41]

So I'll take it as all is well? Chalk it up to learning, nothing else. Provided that you are good with everything and shifting is acceptable and working, I'll leave it that. However, if not, one thing to consider, adjusting the shift linkage rod. This can sometimes be the culprit of not being able to find the gear, provided it was out of adjustment prior to removing the shift pedal.

[snot]

Welcome, glad you found the issue.

[cadd]

Welcome. It appears you did the Moto GP shift mod without knowing it

[alex.s]

chains stretch. usually unevenly. double check that your chain doesn't have any frozen links. tightened chain with frozen links means you'll bust your output shaft bearing. which means you get to do a transmission swap. so make sure the chain is in good condition. also double check the sprockets. you can find lots of pages talking about how to do both

[Ghostt]

Check the blinker fluid

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by brianosaur

(edit) I put the shift pedal upside-down. I'm an idiot. But it's fixed now. I'll leave this post up as a monument to my stupidity.

Welcome Brian!

You are the 2nd rider to unlock this

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by alex.s

chains stretch. usually unevenly. double check that your chain doesn't have any frozen links. tightened chain with frozen links means you'll bust your output shaft bearing. which means you get to do a transmission swap. so make sure the chain is in good condition. also double check the sprockets. you can find lots of pages talking about how to do both

Thanks for the advice. I looked for frozen links, and didn't find any this afternoon. I'll double check the sprockets tomorrow, after reviewing some threads on the subject.

Went for a short ride this evening, and noticed a buzzing noise when laying off the throttle while at speed. Also, I can't tell if the initial chain buzz has actually gone away. Makes me think I may have overtightened the chain, or that the rear wheel isn't aligned perfectly. I did the "count the threads on the bolt" method, but understand you should use a specialty tool (something like this http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0048/). That's something I'll order.

I guess if neither of those things fix the buzz, I should just replace the chain and sprockets. The previous owner kept good service notes, and I don't see chain or sprocket replacement since his purchase back in 2012. That's about 6k miles as well. Not sure what the average life is on those parts.

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Welcome Brian!

You are the 2nd rider to unlock this

Awesome! Now I just have to figure out how to update my flair...

[alex.s]

ah, a fellow redditwhore

post a pic of your sprockets/chain setup for us to bash :P

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by alex.s

ah, a fellow redditwhore

post a pic of your sprockets/chain setup for us to bash :P

Okay, I've got some pictures of my sprockets for you to take a look at.

Lubed the chain up today, thinking that might do the trick. Also re-checked the slack. At the tightest points, it's at 35mm. Looser spots, goes up to 40-ish-mm.

Took the bike out for a spin, and I heard the buzzing again. But I noticed that it happens only in the 5k-6k RPM range. Seems like 5.5k RPMs is the sweet spot for the buzzing I'm getting. I tried revving in neutral, and heard the buzzing in that same RPM range again.

So, what do you think? Something is loose and that's the resonant frequency?

Anyway, thanks for taking a look at the sprockets. First three are of the back sprocket, last two are of the front. Things look wet because I just lubed the chain, and realized I was losing the light, so had to take the pictures before drying things off.

[csmith12]

If it buzzes out of the normal... while not in motion, check your motor mount bolts. They are known to come loose on these bikes.

[alex.s]

chain and sprockets look okay to me. like chris said, maybe its something else

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by brianosaur

........

So, what do you think? Something is loose and that's the resonant frequency?...........

Yes, check the three points of connection of the engine to the frame, as advised above, and re-torque those as needed.

The rear tire may be hitting the swingarm, if too much out of alignment:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=971938

Do not forget to loose the nut on each end of the brake torque link.
The brake assembly must be free to slide back and forth with the wheel.

This could also be happening:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/My_clut...rev_the_engine

The chain slack is to be measured at the same point of the chain (top, center or bottom) and at the middle point between the output shaft and the rear wheel's shaft.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...chain_slack%3F

Also, the rear shaft must be torqued at the specified value; otherwise the wheel will loose the alignment after a while.

[spooph]

agreed, your chain/sprockets look good, assuming the tension is correctly. I was initially thinking brakes/ABS, however, considering the buzzing is engine/RPM dependent it's obviously not the drive line or the brakes...

Do me a favor please.
- Put the bike up on the rear stand.
- Turn it on, leave it in neutral.
- Rev it to confirm the buzzing.
- Pinch the windshield on the throttle side to the front fairing, at it's highest point with your left hand.
- Rev it again and see if the buzzing goes away.

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by spooph

Do me a favor please.
- Put the bike up on the rear stand.
- Turn it on, leave it in neutral.
- Rev it to confirm the buzzing.
- Pinch the windshield on the throttle side to the front fairing, at it's highest point with your left hand.
- Rev it again and see if the buzzing goes away.

Tried this, but now I can't seem to get the noise when the bike is stationary. I did try getting the bike into the 7-8k RPM range, laying off the throttle, and grabbing both the clutch and throttle side of the windshield (on separate attempts). That didn't seem to curtail the noise.

I also put the bike up on the center stand and got it into second gear. I wasn't sitting on the bike, and held it at 5.5k RPM, and couldn't hear the buzzing. Maybe I need to be sitting on the bike, or maybe it's motion-dependent. I'm not sure.

Guy who lives behind me took it out for a drive and couldn't hear it. He tightened up the clutch and recommended an oil change, but couldn't hear the specific buzz I was talking about.

I also took it around the block without a helmet on, to see if I could still pick it up over the full noise of the engine. And I could, but just barely. I think if I wasn't listening for it, I wouldn't hear it.

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Yes, check the three points of connection of the engine to the frame, as advised above, and re-torque those as needed.

I'll get in there tomorrow and double check. It's been rainy the past two days.

Originally Posted by Motofool

The rear tire may be hitting the swingarm, if too much out of alignment:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=971938

Read up on the string method; I'll give that a go.

Originally Posted by Motofool

Do not forget to loose the nut on each end of the brake torque link.
The brake assembly must be free to slide back and forth with the wheel.

After loosening the torque link for the chain adjustment, I did tighten it back up. Are you saying it should be loose when riding? Or just loose to check chain slack?

Originally Posted by Motofool

This could also be happening:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/My_clut...rev_the_engine

Guy who lives behind me gave it a test ride and tried tightening the clutch cable, I haven't tried shimming it or heard the noise coming specifically from this area. The noise gets louder as I get closer to the engine and the center of the bike.

Originally Posted by Motofool

The chain slack is to be measured at the same point of the chain (top, center or bottom) and at the middle point between the output shaft and the rear wheel's shaft.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...chain_slack%3F

I'll double check, I may loosen it a bit.

Originally Posted by Motofool

Also, the rear shaft must be torqued at the specified value; otherwise the wheel will loose the alignment after a while.

Bought a torque wrench when I read up on how to do the chain slack, so I feel confident I have it torqued to the right level.


Thanks for all the help!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by brianosaur

........
After loosening the torque link for the chain adjustment, I did tighten it back up. Are you saying it should be loose when riding? Or just loose to check chain slack?
.............
Thanks for all the help!

You did it correctly: loose to slide the wheel back or forth during check chain slack; once the shaft is torqued down, those two bolts of the link should be tighten back up.

You are welcome

[cadd]

Originally Posted by Motofool

The rear tire may be hitting the swingarm, if too much out of alignment:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=971938

Originally Posted by brianosaur

Read up on the string method; I'll give that a go.

It's so weird that they tie the string to the front wheel. I tried that and found it harder for some reason.

I tie the string to my rear wheel and use two hammers (and tape) to hold onto the string up front.

The swingarm marks should be reasonably accurate. Shouldn't be off enough to allow the tire to touch the swingarm.

For reference, here's the alignment on my bike with using the swingarm markers. They were off.

Right side of the bike (look at the string):



Left side of the bike:



If you want a quick and easy way to check the alignment, grab a long florescent tube and use that as a straight edge to check. Much quicker as a 1 person job.

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Yes, check the three points of connection of the engine to the frame, as advised above, and re-torque those as needed.

Removed the lower and side fairing to get to all the bolts. The bottom bolt was not torqued to 24 ft lbs of pressure, so I did that. Was a pain, as the nut was moving along with the bolt. Crawled under and held the nut in place with another wrench until it hit 24 ft lbs. However, the bolt and nut still spin on the frame (they remain on the frame, but they moved when I was twisting my non-torque wrench to get it off the nut). Is that normal?

The other two points of connection were torqued properly.

I left the lower fairing off (I think it looks cooler) and took it for a spin. Noticed the noise a whole lot less than before. Still heard it sometimes, but it only makes an appearance once the bike is warm (temp needle is near the middle of the gauge). Then I occasionally get the noise in the 5-6k range. It's infrequent, and much more difficult to replicate than before.

I tried to record it using an app on my phone, but it wouldn't pick up the high frequency of the buzz. But at least I got out for a decent ride! Normally I just ride it to commute, or run across town.

I'm wondering if it's just an odd reflection of chain noise up into my helmet? Or maybe I'm just going crazy? How do I even know you people on the internet are real???

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by brianosaur

........ However, the bolt and nut still spin on the frame (they remain on the frame, but they moved when I was twisting my non-torque wrench to get it off the nut). Is that normal?
............
I'm wondering if it's just an odd reflection of chain noise up into my helmet? Or maybe I'm just going crazy? How do I even know you people on the internet are real???

What happens is that the thread of the bolt has been damaged by the frame while being loose.

You are torquing the nut onto the deformed thread of the bolt until reaching your set torque; however, the bolt-nut assembly is not pressing the frame and the engine together, as it should be.

The solution is to replace the bolt or use a couple of thick washers in order to move the nut out over the portion of the thread that has not been damaged.
Because that damage, you will find that removing the nut will take as much effort as torque it in.

The importance of this is that the engine is a part of the frame.
As long as that lower bolt is not clamping engine and frame properly, there will be a little twisting movement each time that the chain is under load (braking or accelerating), creating misalignment between the chain and the front sprocket, besides vibrations.
That persisting twisting movement is what has damaged the thread of that bolt.

Please, see the schematic in this old post:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...7&postcount=34

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by Motofool

The solution is to replace the bolt or use a couple of thick washers in order to move the nut out over the portion of the thread that has not been damaged.
Because that damage, you will find that removing the nut will take as much effort as torque it in.

The importance of this is that the engine is a part of the frame.
As long as that lower bolt is not clamping engine and frame properly, there will be a little twisting movement each time that the chain is under load (braking or accelerating), creating misalignment between the chain and the front sprocket, besides vibrations.
That persisting twisting movement is what has damaged the thread of that bolt.

Please, see the schematic in this old post:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...7&postcount=34

Super-duper helpful explanation. I'm going to pop some washers on there for now, and get a new bolt ordered. Quick Google search got me to Partzilla, where they had the engine diagram and the necessary parts (92002B and 92015A).

Anything special I should do when replacing that bolt? Do I need to support the engine in any way?

Also, can you recommend a decent stand? Right now I'm just using the center stand.

Thanks again!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by brianosaur

...........

Anything special I should do when replacing that bolt? Do I need to support the engine in any way?

Also, can you recommend a decent stand? Right now I'm just using the center stand.

Thanks again!

It is an easy repair.
Apply some blue thread lock (never red) to the threads before applying the final torque.
If you don't mind, do the same for the three bolts.

No stand is more helpful than the center stand of the pre-gen's; I love it.

You are welcome

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by cadd

It's so weird that they tie the string to the front wheel. I tried that and found it harder for some reason.

I tie the string to my rear wheel and use two hammers (and tape) to hold onto the string up front...

Didn't get to this today. On my list for the week, along with replacing the engine mount bolt. Happy to be doing some work!

Next I'd like to get some new mirrors, and a new headlight, and on and on and on...

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by Motofool

It is an easy repair.
Apply some blue thread lock (never red) to the threads before applying the final torque.
If you don't mind, do the same for the three bolts.

New bolt has shipped, and I have thread lock to apply.

However...

I got up early this morning and put on some washers, then torqued the old bolt back up as I needed to ride this morning (easier commute). Still noticed the buzzing at 5.5k rpm.

I decided to try something I hadn't tried yet. I was riding in 2nd, and heard the buzzing sound at 5.5k rpm. I kept the throttle twisted and pulled in the clutch, leaving the bike in 2nd gear. Still heard the buzzing noise. Slacked off the throttle, and it went away.

Does that mean it's something in the gearbox? Or could it still be a loose bolt or fitting somewhere on the bike? I'm guessing it removes the drive train and sprockets from the equation.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by brianosaur

.......... Still noticed the buzzing at 5.5k rpm.

I decided to try something I hadn't tried yet. I was riding in 2nd, and heard the buzzing sound at 5.5k rpm. I kept the throttle twisted and pulled in the clutch, leaving the bike in 2nd gear. Still heard the buzzing noise. Slacked off the throttle, and it went away.

Does that mean it's something in the gearbox? Or could it still be a loose bolt or fitting somewhere on the bike? I'm guessing it removes the drive train and sprockets from the equation.

Your clutch is the disconnecting link between crankshaft and transmission.
If it happens at any gear when around 5,500 rpm, it is a resonating effect of the vibrations coming from the engine alone in some vibrating element away from the engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance

If it only happens at certain speed of the bike, it is some link between the transmission and the rear wheel.

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by Motofool

If it happens at any gear when around 5,500 rpm, it is a resonating effect of the vibrations coming from the engine alone in some vibrating element away from the engine.

Riding in to work today, I did my best to test this hypothesis (even though it's all city streets). In gears 1, 2, and 3, I could hear the buzz, all at different speeds, but at the same RPM. I'll try to get out this evening and ride in 4, 5, and 6 to see if I can replicate the 5,500 rpm sound.

Then, I suppose it's just taking off the fairings and making sure everything's tight. I know I can get the diagram and specs from the Kawasaki website, so I'll follow those guidelines

I also realize I posted this in the wrong place. I've got a 2005 Ninja.

Thanks for the help, and I'll update if I solve the issue (or add another data point)!

[csmith12]

Didn't you say it buzzes while NOT in motion? Why don't you pop it up on the center stand and get a friend to hold the throttle at a 5500 rpms and give it a close listen and look while you walk around the bike? It's kinda hard to find sounds while in motion with a helmet on.

[brianosaur]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Didn't you say it buzzes while NOT in motion? Why don't you pop it up on the center stand and get a friend to hold the throttle at a 5500 rpms and give it a close listen and look while you walk around the bike? It's kinda hard to find sounds while in motion with a helmet on.

Yes, I did at one point hear it when it wasn't in motion, but tried it again and didn't. I think that the engine has to be warmed up for the sound to really come out, so I'll have to put that theory to the test tonight.

Now that my roommate is done with finals, I'll be able to get him to help me out with this. He used to ride, though he never had a bike with a chain, but at least I trust him to know how to act with the bike on the center stand.

Then I'll get out the old stethoscope and find out where the noise is once and for all.