January 16th, 2016, 12:44 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
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300 Race bike build
Hey all, I don't post around here much but I thought I would show my build.
Me and a buddy on a 600 at Blackhawk Farms. Bike was about 1/2 done at this point, no race fairings yet.
Link to original page on YouTube.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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January 16th, 2016, 01:05 PM | #2 |
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Looks fantastic!
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January 16th, 2016, 05:20 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Lee
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Is the base line using that special fuel?
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January 16th, 2016, 05:59 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
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No, they are all 91 octane ethanol free pump gas except the top green line, which is MR12.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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January 17th, 2016, 02:10 AM | #5 | |
Freedom for Germany
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Quote:
May I ask you if you didn't know about Matt's fork-solution, @pattonme? I think his one for the forks should be the best of all, since with them every single adjustment for each side is possible. K-Tech is not different to Andreani (one leg controls rebound, the other compression damping). Tell me that I'm wrong, but from my understanding the FGVE's have rebound plus compression for each single fork (I know the setup is not as easy as the other way and therefore it might be limited [also nearly everybody 'hates' them]). Good luck for you |
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January 17th, 2016, 06:17 AM | #6 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: Northern VA
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Quote:
So I see you're going to tangle with CapitalView on his R3. You're about the same weight and height so should be fun. A 2-piston config for cartridges can absolutely work if it's done right, @Somchai. I just haven't seen a K-tech to tear it apart and evaluate. best of luck in the upcoming season. |
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January 17th, 2016, 06:32 AM | #7 |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
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Thx Matt, yes I believe this because it wouldn't be sold if it didn't do.
I also did not want to say anything about it's not working. Since English isn't my native language maybe sometimes i become misunderstood. |
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January 17th, 2016, 09:03 AM | #8 | ||
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
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Quote:
Quote:
Hey, any of you guys ever hear of anyone who modified their wheels for lower weight? I think it's still SS legal if its the OEM wheels. I take my wheels off in the winter so my race tires don't freeze and I noticed the rear wheel of my '13 675R weighs a shocking 2 lbs less. The 300 wheels are heavy mofos! So I was looking at them, and that middle ridge meant for clip-on wheels weights could be milled off. Probably prohibitively expensive, but I was a little disappointed how heavy the 300's wheels were.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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January 17th, 2016, 09:16 AM | #9 |
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You have access to a lathe and/or mill and/or machine shop? I'd bet there's some weight to be lost, but idk where would be the best spot to trim. Also, there may be surface hardening and/or heat treatment that may help, but that's a little beyond my experience. Any weight you take off will be banking on a decent safety factor in the OE design because that's what you'll be reducing when you trim material. Forged wheels that are designed to be light weight are really the best way to cut weight without losing strength. Those are pricey though!
Definitely interested in what you come up with! I like the build a lot so far. |
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January 17th, 2016, 10:20 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: Northern VA
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not only can you not mill the wheels where it will immediately show to anyone at Tech, that ridge is a rigidity element. You might be able to thin the wheel 'tub' on the inside where a mounted tire obviously conceals your "rule breaking".
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January 17th, 2016, 10:57 AM | #11 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
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Oh, I wasn't sure if milling the OEM wheels stayed within SS rules. The CCS rule book says OEM wheels required, but doesn't say modifying them is not allowed. I just did some searching, and I saw a couple comments stating it was legal. In fact a couple of guys have removed the ridge.
The ridge didn't look structural to me, it looked like something put there to hold weight clips. It's a moot point anyway, I'm not likely to do that as the gains would be minimal.
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January 17th, 2016, 03:38 PM | #12 |
ninjette.org member
Name: geno
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we removed the ridge and thinned the spokes, also enlarged the holes on hub, on our 250, only removed 1lb, no adverse affects on either wheel, to remove ridge for weights just use die grinder then smooth out with a sanding disc
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January 17th, 2016, 10:31 PM | #13 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: Northern VA
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Maybe I'm just being a safety nazi but had you done FEA on the wheel? I could see maybe eroding sections of the ridge well clear of the spoke intersections but the savings would be minimal.
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January 17th, 2016, 11:01 PM | #14 |
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FEA is fine and dandy (and is really useful for designing/testing parts) but it's only valid if you have perfectly defined all forces involved, and I don't mean rough estimates of forces. If you want a meaningful FEA result, you need to know every force on that wheel that it will ever experience. Static loads, impulses from bumps, side loading from lean angle, everything. Miss one force or get one magnitude wrong and your margin of error is suddenly larger than your fudge factor for safety. On the other hand, you may have just required an insanely high safety factor that makes anchors out of your wheels.
You can do FEA until you're blue in the face, but if you aren't the master of what that wheel experiences, you're just pissing in the ocean. It's not like the computer magically spits out the right numbers. Matt, I don't know your background. You seem to have a solid handle on racebike and suspension setup, but I have no idea what your experience with FEA is, so please pardon me if I'm out of line. |
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January 17th, 2016, 11:21 PM | #15 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: Northern VA
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well sure, my point was in contrast to the cavalier, "hey, i'll just grind these bits off because I don't know what purpose they serve and I just gotta save a few ounces".
And clearly I'll leave all such FEA matters up to you. My intuition is that the ridge is there deliberately to spread load and act as a spine. without it you get heavy concentration of stress at the hoop/spoke interface. FWIW the automotive "standard" pothole (defined loosely) for wheel impacts is something like 3G up and 2-3G rearward. |
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January 17th, 2016, 11:22 PM | #16 |
Freedom for Germany
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Before one starts with the suspension...
...the first steps should be, reduce as many weight as allowed. Here are some thoughts about that: Galespeed Rims ~ 2.0 kilograms (Magnesium = 4.0 kilograms) All screws from aluminum ~ 2.0 - 2.5 kilograms Rear subframe aluminum ~ 3.5 kilograms Front fairing stay aluminum ~ 1.0 kilogram Race fairings ~ 2.0 - 3.0 kilograms Sprockets aluminum ~ 1.0 kilogram Chain-Kit 418 ~ 1.0 kilogram Engine covers from Carbon ~ 1.0 - 2.0 kilogram Remove the balance shaft ~ 2.0 kilograms and many more... Suspension depends on weight, so start with it after the weight reduction... The goal must be as less weight as possible (the Scuderia Platini reduced their Ninja 250SS by 28 kilograms). PS: The above numbers show a round about weight reduction, not the weight of the components. |
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January 17th, 2016, 11:29 PM | #17 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: Northern VA
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are those weight savings figures, or is it how much the components weigh and the delta to OE is yet to be undetermined?
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January 18th, 2016, 07:34 AM | #18 | |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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Quote:
While it may not be possible to accurately model the resulting stress changes due to the modification of the wheel, it is a valid point that there is certainly a large chunk of risk someone takes when making such a modification. The change may not be significant in terms of reliability but it is essentially untested and unproven until it is put through its paces. And should it choose to be significant, the results could be less than enjoyable.
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January 18th, 2016, 07:37 AM | #19 |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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I would imagine that list is accurate for neither of those but meant to be examples of potential weight savings.
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January 18th, 2016, 12:21 PM | #20 | ||
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Quote:
Looking at how small that ridge is, my gut tells me that it's there mostly for spooning tires onto and off the rim, but I'm not qualified to make that statement with any amount of authority at all. Quote:
Just remember that before we used computers, race teams survived (or sometimes not) by modifying their parts and testing to failure. I'd bet there's a high enough safety factor on those wheels to trim the lip off... but I'm not going to bet someone else's life on it. Nor would I do it myself. If I'm going to mess with wheel weight, I'm probably going to do it with light weight tires or expensive aftermarket wheels or fitting wheels from another bike. |
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January 18th, 2016, 06:33 PM | #21 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
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Quote:
No aftermarket wheels for me - I have to stay withing SS rules. All screws aluminum? Seems dangerous with the low shear strength, and making all screws titanium is a waste of money. Carbon engine covers on a bike with a heavy steel frame? Bahaha no thanks. I'm thinking about a chain and sprocket kit, but that's low priority for the time being. As for modifying the frame, I need to make the decision that this will never be a road bike again. Not sure at this point and I have all the street plastics in a box in the basement. Of course after I crash it, I'll say "yup, this is going to stay a track bike." Hahah. But make no mistake, the ninja's heavy wheels and "heavy side down" front forks are total crap. Very high unsprung weight and there's real no fixing it while staying under supersport rules. About all we can do is improve it slightly. Bike is still fun as hell though. I'm an engineer and I do have access to FEA as part of our AutoCAD design suite, but I wouldn't bother. If I did do some milling, I would just draw up good cross section of the rim and the spokes and make a judgement call. It's not rocket science. I only do track riding and therefor can rule out road hazards. The wheels won't fall apart on me unless I high side it or hit an off track obstacle. A guy on the CCS forum machined the middle rib down on an SV650. It passed tech but it was less than a half pound. Probably not even worth it. I lost more weight than that with my EBC floating rotor. I guess the nice part is that I got the major components of the build done so now I can have fun thinking about the minor mods like trimming weight.
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January 18th, 2016, 06:51 PM | #22 |
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How about other directions.
Aluminum fairing stay? Minimalist wiring harness? Helium in the tires? |
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January 31st, 2016, 09:06 AM | #23 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
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Quote:
I don't think the fairing stay needs upgrading though. The main benefit to changing out the fairing stay on some bikes is to get one that doesn't break in a crash. The 300's seems pretty durable and if it did get whacked out of line, a little tap with a rubber hammer in the pits would put it back. On some bikes, like my 675s, the front subframe is cast aluminum and it will break into 3 pieces if you breath on it wrong. Lots of opportunity for lightening the bike at the point when I decide it will never go back to stock. (generally that happens after my first crash, hahah)
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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January 31st, 2016, 01:09 PM | #24 |
Urban Legend
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WANT!!!!
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January 31st, 2016, 09:15 PM | #25 |
ninjette.org member
Name: geno
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what gearing did you use at bhf and what times were you turning
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February 1st, 2016, 06:00 PM | #26 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
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I only ran there once on a track day and the bike was only half done with factory gearing. My times there weren't very good, but I was spending most of the day working out my suspension and unlearning braking points from my 676R. My first lap I hit the brakes at the tower like I normally do on my 675R. 2 seconds later... "well that was dumb." Hahah Time will tell what my best will be.
The faster guys on 300's are in the 22's, at least not those running cheater big bore kits that never get post race inspections. (they will this year) 25's gets you mid pack and 29's get you last place, but still faster than the slowest SV650's.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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February 2nd, 2016, 09:24 PM | #27 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Lee
Location: SF Bay Area
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I'm thinking of putting in a full k-tech set up. Sounds like our not completely satisfy with the fronts, what don't you like about them?
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February 3rd, 2016, 08:01 PM | #28 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
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Oh I do like the front carts I have installed. But make no mistake, they don't compare to the solid and composed feeling my 675R has. The 300 just moves around a little more in turns, but I still feel in control. It's just the nature of a budget bike. I recognize that part of it is the chassis, and there's no real improving that.
I considered an all K-tech setup including the rear shock, but the Ohlins was about $250 cheaper, and from most of my research, people generally liked it. Feels good to me.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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February 4th, 2016, 10:57 AM | #29 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
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Who has overbored a 300? The nikasil doesn't take well to boring and no pistons are available that I'm aware of.
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February 5th, 2016, 06:53 PM | #30 |
sammich maker
Name: snot
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nlNice write up on the mods, actually answered questions I didn't think of. The bike is beautiful!
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February 10th, 2016, 01:27 PM | #31 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Michael
Location: Tehachapi, CA
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Its a different procedure entirely. The Nikasil is just a plating. Paper thin. It has to be bored, replated, and honed. My shop does this all the time, but with Hayabusas, GSXR1000s, CBR1000s, 600s, R1, R6, etc, etc, etc.... Havent done a 300 yet but thats not to say its impossible. The Wiseco and JE pistons for the 250 work for the 300 as well, though I believe there is a minor amount of spacing you may have to do but thats it.
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February 10th, 2016, 03:11 PM | #32 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
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Quote:
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February 10th, 2016, 03:34 PM | #33 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Lee
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300 Posts: 97
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@Zaph42
i'm going to upgrade the suspension and i'm deciding between a full ktech cartridge/ ktech shock vs andreani cartridge/elka shock? Do you have any thoughts on the andreani or elka products? @bruce71198 I think @sprinter got some customs pistons. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=141856 Last futzed with by supersport; February 10th, 2016 at 06:17 PM. |
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February 10th, 2016, 05:31 PM | #34 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Michael
Location: Tehachapi, CA
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2014 Ninja 300 Posts: 160
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Ahh, gotcha!
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February 10th, 2016, 05:34 PM | #35 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jake
Location: Manila
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 250R Posts: 135
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Any of the JE pistons work with the 300? Will benefit be just a bump up in compression?
Quote:
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February 10th, 2016, 06:18 PM | #36 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jon
Location: Southern California
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im lovin the paint scheme
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February 10th, 2016, 07:52 PM | #37 |
Board Member
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Nice work
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February 16th, 2016, 10:21 AM | #38 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Michael
Location: Tehachapi, CA
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2014 Ninja 300 Posts: 160
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In theory they work, its just a matter of getting the right spacer under the cylinder block.
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February 23rd, 2016, 08:39 PM | #39 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Shane
Location: Baltimore MD/York PA
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Very nice build.. I'll be doing a similar paint job but maybe different red accents. New bodywork is shipping this week...
I'm running the same CCS classes as you, but over in Mid Atlantic Region... For the 500SS/ULTB dilemma, I'm considering using the airbox for 500SS, which races on Saturday, then switching out for pods for the ULTB race on Sunday... is your schedule setup like that so you could swap them Sat night? |
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February 23rd, 2016, 10:20 PM | #40 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
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dem eyes
sweet build all around, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you get your hands on a set of alpha 13s personally I'm thinking of going to the bridgestone slicks, the ccs contingency would be nice to have and they seem to have crazy grip/longevity. Just need rain tires on an extra set of rims for it to be worth it
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