How did my chain get so loose and my axle get so tight?!

[CZroe]

I changed my tires due to a road hazard a couple months ago. After mounting new tires, I made sure the chain slack and axle torque were in spec and resumed riding. I checked it a few times over the next couple weeks and everything seemed to be OK (it is my daily commuter vehicle). About a month later, I started hearing rattling and slapping that was getting worse and worse, but it was always raining and I didn't have the chance to investigate thoroughly until a week ago. I found that it was so slack that I could move it nearly three inches until I hit the swingarm! I also found that I could not loosen the axle nut to adjust the chain because the whole bike would lift off the stand (I have it inserted from the right). I put all of my 250+ lbs on the axle itself using a cheap Harbor Freight ratchet (risky, I know) and it still would not loosen. I don't have an impact wrench, so it took hours to get it out! How did it get that tight?! Anyway, I'm scared to torque it back down to spec now, considering what happened before.

The more important question is regarding the chain itself. It's an aftermarket cheap blue-colored chain from a snowmobile dealer that also sold colored chain + sprocket kits for motorcycles (he sold kits for the pregen on eBay), so I have a sneaking suspicion that it wasn't intended for daily commuting and was intended more for seasonal snowmobiling where you aren't as likely to die from a complete chain failure. Even so, I can't blame it all on the chain because I had put many thousands of miles on it and it stayed the proper tightness/length until after the most recent, early, tire change. To restore the proper slack, I had to adjust it to a point that I believe is much farther back than it has ever been. This means that the chain must have stretched significantly, despite having put many times more miles on it before this sudden extreme loosening. The sounds of it contacting the bike/swingarm were not comforting. Could it have damaged anything else in the time it was being ridden that loose? I've only had it since about 12K miles and I'm now over 18K. I really don't have the money for a new name-brand chain, and there's no way I'm spending $190 for an OEM chain, so what do you guys recommend?

[scotty]

The chain could have stretched but not by that much. Was your tire straight before you losen it up? Maybe you had hit a pot hole and moves the rim?

[Sailariel]

JET, I think that If I were in your place, I would check the chain for stretch. If it is out of spec., replacement with a good O ring chain would be money well spent. I do know that with bicycles (I have a bike shop) a streched chain causes excessive wear on sprockets. Also, the danger of a chain breaking is something you should try to avoid. Spending the $$ on a good 106 link chain would certainly give you peace of mind.

[DaBlue1]

Did your Chain Tensioner Cap Bolts loosen at all? Chances are tone side did and the torque from the chain put enough pressure on it to keep it and the axle bolt tight and slightly canted.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by scotty

The chain could have stretched but not by that much. Was your tire straight before you losen it up? Maybe you had hit a pot hole and moves the rim?

I used the alignment marks and a chain alignment tool, neither of which are perfect, so I split the difference.

Originally Posted by Sailariel

JET, I think that If I were in your place, I would check the chain for stretch. If it is out of spec., replacement with a good O ring chain would be money well spent. I do know that with bicycles (I have a bike shop) a streched chain causes excessive wear on sprockets. Also, the danger of a chain breaking is something you should try to avoid. Spending the $$ on a good 106 link chain would certainly give you peace of mind.

It's going to sting considering I bought this one only 8 months ago, but I agree: Better safe than sorry.

How do I check for stretch and how much is allowable?

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Did your Chain Tensioner Cap Bolts loosen at all? Chances are tone side did and the torque from the chain put enough pressure on it to keep it and the axle bolt tight and slightly canted.

Previously I don't think they were adjusted nearly to the point I had to adjust them to in order to reign in the slack. The alignment plates are almost at the last mark! they were still pretty even on both sides and pretty tight. The axle was so ridiculously tight that I doubt it could have moved anyway!

[Sailariel]

JET, I could answer that if I still had my Shop Manual. Sold the manual to another Ninjette. Anybody out there who can help?

[GiGs]

If I were you, i'd replace that chain pronto - you can get D.I.D chains here (and on eBay) for around the $100AU mark. Depends if you want O ring, X ring, gold etc...

As for chain slack the service manual says

20 ∼ 30 mm (0.8 ∼ 1.2 in.)

, that is from the bottom 'side' of the chain...heres a pic from the service manual

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5671/chainj.jpg

I adjusted mine so that the chain was *just* not making contact with the swing arm protector (while in neutral and on stands). This left me with perfect slack spec when the bike was standing and/or in gear. The chain has not stretched at all either.

[Deanohh]

With a bike in gear you will never get the right slack measurement.

[g21-30]

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31928

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

JET, I could answer that if I still had my Shop Manual. Sold the manual to another Ninjette. Anybody out there who can help?

Thanks anyway.

Originally Posted by GiGs

If I were you, i'd replace that chain pronto - you can get D.I.D chains here (and on eBay) for around the $100AU mark. Depends if you want O ring, X ring, gold etc...

As for chain slack the service manual says , that is from the bottom 'side' of the chain...heres a pic from the service manual

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5671/chainj.jpg

I adjusted mine so that the chain was *just* not making contact with the swing arm protector (while in neutral and on stands). This left me with perfect slack spec when the bike was standing and/or in gear. The chain has not stretched at all either.

I've got the manual and adjusted it to just that each time. It's "stretch" that I'm wondering how to measure, though it'd really be more for curiosity considering that I want to replace it now anyway. I just want to know for sure if the chain stretched or the adjusters and swingarm slipped. Considering the ridiculously tight axle despite having only been tightened to the specified torque (it somehow got tighter), I have a feeling that the chain isn't the only concern.

Originally Posted by g21-30

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31928

Thanks, but it's not the same question. Mine was so loose that I couldn't even measure the slack because it would reach the swingarm. It was at least three inches, which is 50% more than anything the others were talking about. A lot of the noises I thought were attributable to valves (I'm past due for a valve job) were actually the chain, so I've been riding with it this way for too long and I do wonder what it could do to the non-sprocket parts it contacted to make all that noise.

[backinthesaddleagain]

A chain could have slack within spec at one point of the chain and be stretched at another point. Perhaps not so extreme as 3" though. One quick check is also trying to pull the chain away from the back of the rear sprocket. It shouldn't lift off the sprocket more than a hair. A service manual will have the actual tolerances.

I have found I can adjust the chain in one spot to spec then rotate the wheel and another spot is looser or tighter. Always want to set slack at the tightest point of the chain. Hope this helps in some way.

[rockNroll]

Check the bike over real well, or have a pro do it. Contrary to popular belief chains stretch very VERY little (you won't see it or the difference it made), especially on underpowered machines like these. Chains wear out and get lots of slop between parts that used to fit snug and sprocket(s) wear, creating most the slack in your chain. Assuming that nothing has "moved".

[CZroe]

Well, it did it AGAIN except the axel was a bit loose this time. I'm now adjusted all the way to the last mark.

It didn't sound the same this time... Instead of hearing an obvious slap/scrape sound, it would make a click sound like I had shifted but without the "thunk" sound that goes with it. I made it to work and checked it just before leaving and that appears to be it. Because I was actually able to loosen the axel with the tool kit this time, I adjusted it and I'm about to make my trip home. Wish me luck!

Oh, and it's over 19k miles now.

[CZroe]

A person I work with was walking by and saw me pulled over adjusting my chain He came back by later to offer the use of his tools. I explained that it was already adjusted and that I was only still there because I was posting online and calling my brother in case something happened to me so that people would know if my chain gave and caused an accident.

Well, I made it home and turned on the news only to see that someone along my route had a motorcycle accident and caused a massive jam. I hope he isn't watching the news! I also hope the other guy is OK.

[CZroe]

OK, this is ridiculous. My chain was rattling and knocking again these past few days. I finally checked it and, sure enough, it was suddenly much too loose again, only this time I had already reached the MAXIMUM adjustment for tightening. It is so loose that it is touching part of the frame where the suspension connects. Though my sprocket looked seemingly fine before, it looks like it's wearing pretty fast now. What can cause extreme chain stretch and sprocket wear? They are both one year old with about 7K miles!

I have two theories:

#1: The shop installed my chain with a rivet link instead of the clip-type it included. Could they have used the wrong kind? It does seem to be a lot tighter than the other links (chain doesn't pull straight unless I tweak it there by hand but that's also because it's way too loose).
#2: Something related to the barricade I hit back in October/November. It cut up my tires and damaged my rims, but it all appears cosmetic and the shop said that everything still balanced fine. *shrug*

I counted and it is 106 links. I ordered it as a 520 O-Ring, so it should be right. My gearing is 15/41 instead of 14/45 but I heard that you'd need something like 16/41 for the needed number of links to change and that needs a modified sprocket cover anyway.

I have no alternate transportation, but I know I can't keep riding it like this, especially with it touching the frame. Any suggestions?

[CZroe]

From my "removing links from a stretched chain" thread (now merged):

I don't know why my 1-year-old 8K mile chain stretched so much but it is already causing notable rear sprocket wear. I need to replace them together but in the mean time I need to get the bike running (it is my daily commuter). I should have more time left on the sprocket and, if not, I can switch back to my old one until I can replace them all. I just need to shorten the chain because I can't tighten the adjusters any more than they already are.

It has a rivet-type master link. Will a chain breaker work on that? Everything I read only descibes using it on normal links. :/ I still have the original unused clip-type link to switch to.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I don't know why my 1-year-old 8K mile chain stretched so much but it is already causing notable rear sprocket wear. I need to replace them together but in the mean time I need to get the bike running (it is my daily commuter). I should have more time left on the sprocket and, if not, I can switch back to my old one until I can replace them all. I just need to shorten the chain because I can't tighten the adjusters any more than they already are.

It has a rivet-type master link. Will a chain breaker work on that? Everything I read only descibes using it on normal links. :/ I still have the original unused clip-type link to switch to.

The chain probably didn't stretch much, the sprockets' wear is causing the most of the slop. As a sprocket wears the chain rides lower, closer to the center of the sprocket, making it like a smaller sized sprocket.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

The chain probably didn't stretch much, the sprockets' wear is causing the most of the slop. As a sprocket wears the chain rides lower, closer to the center of the sprocket, making it like a smaller sized sprocket.

Even if the sprocket is what is causing the majority of it, the stretched chain is almost undoubtedly what caused the sprocket to wear, at which point it accelerated both wearing as it got loose. The chain got suddenly and notably loose a little over a month ago and the sprocket was still fine. I tightened it up using all of the adjustment range and found that it was loose again and now the sprocket wasn't doing so good. A new sprocket with the same old chain is going to last just as long: a month. I can't adjust it any tighter and yet it's so loose that it's touching the frame where the suspension attaches, so I can't ride it.

As I understand it, when the pins get spaced ever so slightly it doesn't line up with the sprocket teeth as well and the looseness also causes lateral wear. It's a JT sprocket that I bought with the chain and had installed only one year (8,000 miles) ago.

How can I tell if the sprockets are installed backwards or something?

If I can't take out a link today I will be trying to install my old sprocket (45 tooth; up from 41 tooth). I think DuckMan's chain video was saying to file down rivet links before using a chain breaker on them so I'll be removing a normal link instead (if I can).

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by CZroe

the stretched chain is almost undoubtedly what caused the sprocket to wear,

Probably not. Chains don't stretch much, contrary to popular belief. Stretching is just wear between link and pivot, the metal doesn't stretch. If your chain wore that fast it was either a cheap pos or subject to harsh use combined with no maint. Crap sprockets that wear quick seem to be more common. These are just observations made working in a motorcycle shop and replacing a lot of sprockets and chains n such.

[CThunder-blue]

Most DIY's I've seen, they grind off the rivets on the master link and use the chain breaker to push the pin thru. It should work pretty well.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Probably not. Chains don't stretch much, contrary to popular belief. Stretching is just wear between link and pivot, the metal doesn't stretch. If your chain wore that fast it was either a cheap pos or subject to harsh use combined with no maint. Crap sprockets that wear quick seem to be more common. These are just observations made working in a motorcycle shop and replacing a lot of sprockets and chains n such.

It was a $45 blue 520 O-ring chain from a snowmobile shop so, yes, I do believe it is a cheap chain. I have been reading up on chain stretch and sprocket wear and I am seeing textbook examples of both with the chain seeming to have stretched first. Yes, it's the pins between the links that wear and, even though it's imperceptible per-link, it can add up to a very perceptible stretch along the full length, especially when llined up with a new chain. The sprocket looked fine 6 weeks ago when the chain was loose enough to take up all of my adjustment range... not so much now. When the pins wear, the distance between them increases and it starts to wear the leading edge of the sprocket tooth (they no longer "land" directly between them), which widens the gap between the teeth and sharpens their appearance. This is exactly what I am seeing.

I suspect that they may have sent me an off-brand rear sprocket too (instead of JT), so I'm going to look for any tell-tale markings.

I'm not saying that my chain stretched in 6 weeks. It appears that 6 weeks ago I was experiencing a lot of chain stretch for a 1 year old chain and 6 weeks later I am experiencing the resulting sprocket wear, which has further loosened it (not the result of further stretching). I have a feeling that it's going to be easier to put my old sprocket back on than to remove a link so I am going to try that first.

Thanks though. I've been telling everyone that chains don't stretch as much as you would think too, but I'm pretty sure that it did in this case.

What orientation is the J-specific front sprocket supposed to face? I believe the spacer side with the extra thickness (compared to a pre-gen sprocket) would only make sense facing inward, so I guess it should be spacer-side in. when the rain lets up I plan to check it immediately.

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

Most DIY's I've seen, they grind off the rivets on the master link and use the chain breaker to push the pin thru. It should work pretty well.

Thanks. Then I'd need to buy the rotary tool and the chain breaker, so I'm going to try to put on my larger 45-tooth sprocket and, if that doesn't work, I'll remove a normal link and use the clip-type master it originally included.

[CThunder-blue]

You don't have an angle grinder? That should work too.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

You don't have an angle grinder? That should work too.

Since I moved here in 2008, I've only bought specific tools when I've encountered the need so, in addition to the OEM crap. So few, in fact, that I could probably count them off. Basically, the rotary tool is $10 at HF and the chain breaker is $16. If I can get away with only buying one until I get a new chain and sprockets, I will.


I have some time to blow, so let's see... hmm. To my recollection, I only have the following:
1/2" drive torque wrench from Advanced Auto Parts
Metric socket for axle bolt side (use OEM tool for large nut on other end)
1/4" drive socket wrench set from Harbor Freight (broken/doesn't ratchet; needs to be exchanged AGAIN)
A few random screwdrivers
Spools + low-profile aluminum rear stand (eBay + HF)
Bead breaker (HF)
3x tire irons (HF)
Teflon rim protectors (Motion Pro?)
Chain alignment tool (HF)
Valve stem core remover (NAPA. auto parts)
Hex socket drivers (Sears Craftsman eVolve)
Folding metric hex key set (from Lowes... Cobalt?)
I think that's it. Pretty sparse. A few other random supplies like rubbing compounds, lube, thread-locker, oil, coolant, cotter pins (AAP), filters, a metric hardware kit with bolts, nuts, and pop rivets, etc.



I don't even have a hammer or drill. Try as I might, I can't find any cross/phillips driver at HF that clearly says "#3," but that been on my list for bar ends for a while. Oh! That reminds me: I did buy a pencil torch ($2 at HF) and butane for that same job (not completed yet).

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Try as I might, I can't find any cross/phillips driver at HF that clearly says "#3," but that been on my list for bar ends for a while.

http://www.harborfreight.com/impact-...ase-37530.html

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

http://www.harborfreight.com/impact-...ase-37530.html

Looks like I'm headed there for a breaker bar anyway.

I can't loosen the nuts on the rear sprocket. It looks like it's easier with the tire still mounted but that still doesn't work for me. R I dewin it rong?

[CZroe]

Bump. At HF now.

[CThunder-blue]

You should be able to slide a breaker bar in between the sprocket slot and the rim spoke, maybe put a 2x4 with a rag there to protect the spoke. Leverage the sprocket against the spoke to keep it from moving and remove the nut. I haven't tried this yet, but it should work.

[rockNroll]

stop by an automotive garage on your way home and ask a mechanic to take the nuts off with his pneumatic air wrench I'm serious!

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

stop by an automotive garage on your way home and ask a mechanic to take the nuts off with his pneumatic air wrench I'm serious!

It's on the bike at home and I can't ride it with the chain like it is, but thanks! I think I'll try the board + rag method first.

[CZroe]

Look at my sprocket comparison!

Link to original page on YouTube.

The first pic is of one of the tabs that the chain guard attaches to.

After I made the video I used my chain alignment tool and it looked like the chain was meandering (not linear). It would be imperceptible without a visual aid like the tool.

My new theory is that the incident with the metal object that slashed my tires, gashed my front rim, and dented my rear rim, may have also damaged my chain/sprockets. I noticed an impact mark of some kind on my brake calipers on the other side that I can't explain any other way so it looks like I took a much bigger beating than I thought! There is definitely some damage on my front fender's right side when the gash cut into the rim was on the left, but it's on the edge.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[CThunder-blue]

So did the breaker bar method work on getting the sprocket off?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

So did the breaker bar method work on getting the sprocket off?

I got this thing for $8:
http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-to...set-96927.html
A LOT more leverage.

I put the padded 2x4 across the swingarm but the wheel wouldn't turn touch it with the bike in-gear so I guess it wasn't really needed (probably not good for the already-suspect chain). The problem wasn't that it was moving too much, it was that I didn't lave enough leverage to break the nuts with whatever threadlocker they used.

[CZroe]

Forgot to post with this:
swinarm_rub.jpg

It clearly shows where the chain has been contacting the top of the swingarm. I don't see any marks where it was able to contact the frame so I didn't take a pic of that.

[CZroe]

When I install my new chain, I hear that I should grease the O-rings on the master link before installation. With what, specifically? I have axle grease. Will that do the trick? This is the one I ordered:
http://www.d2moto.com/p-8290-520-o-r...LAID=589020783

Yes, I know I will need to remove links.

Next question: The Ninja250.org chain faq says that I need to grind off a pin to remove it even if I have a chain breaker. Really? That's not the way I've seen it described online elsewhere. They weren't just talking about a rivet-type master link either.

[CZroe]

The chain I ordered above began making noises a couple months later.

Despite what I was saying. I took it to a shop and had them install it professionally (Stark Motorcycle). They confirmed that the mismatched master link in the old chain was causing the problem and talked poorly of the dealership that did it, but then it seems that they partially pressed one of the sleeves through when removing a link and it made an O-ring tear and plates were meshing that were never supposed to touch. I caught it a few weeks later and they fixed it by pressing the sleeve back through, but I still needed a new master link. D2moto.com had none so I used some O-rings that they sent me until an identical looking master link arrived in the mail ("Forward Powersports").

A few months later, I began hearing pops and grinding on the new chain and found that the rollers were cracked, missing, and chunked (C-shaped sections remaining). These are the parts that roll as a sprocket tooth fits between them, so you can imagine that it wasn't good for the sprockets. It sounded like it was taking bites out of it and, sure enough, the sprocket wear was just as severe as before, even with brand new chain and sprockets! I had ridden with it too tight for one long trip a few weeks earlier but I had no idea what to blame.

I can't say that the Volar chain was to blame because I switched to a new rear sprocket with an OEM Kawasaki chain (endless EK SRO) from another member's bike (@ninja250) and it did it after an easy few thousand miles (crossed the country): More chunked and missing rollers! I similarly can't say the installer or my own negligence was to blame because the EK SRO was not overtightened or ridden tight and there was no issue installing it.

I ordered another and it now comes with a rivet link and has "Volar" stamped on several links, so thing have changed. I'm still convinced that it's a generic supplier that offered branding services because there is no way that they make gloves, chains, brake pads, and everything else under the sun. Even the product that the old link above links to has been updated. It now has a branded box too but the instructions on back are for a clip-type master link.

Edit: Maybe they are more than a generic supplier. I was just contacted by Volar's Senior R&D guy "Vincent" who says that they are working on an even better chain. All signs point to it being made for them to their specifications by a supplier. I added the "in between" story above as well, since this thread was really about the chain before my first Volar chain but mentions my Volar problems as well.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, but for not much more money, you can get a better chain than a Volar chain. It won't be fancy blue though.

RK 520XSO chains are like $65.00

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yeah, but for not much more money, you can get a better chain than a Volar chain. It won't be fancy blue though.

RK 520XSO chains are like $65.00

Until I know if something else is responsible for my chains going bad, I want to avoid wasting a good chain. As it turns out, the OEM chain I used to cross the country with developed the same problem as my last chain (broken/missing roller links). That's EK SRO Japanese Steel.

Not sure what's going on. I stared at the CS sprocket as it spun freely with no chain or sprocket cover and it seems to spin straight and true. I've always insisted on JTF1539 as the correct part with no shimming needed. I'm always changed sprockets with chains. I've always checked alignment and even prioritized chain alignment over tire alignment through the life of my first replacement chain (used Harbor Freight motorcycle chain alignment tool). I'm just not sure what to blame here.

[spc2125]

Question: I'm getting noise from front sprocket after removing my rear wheel and trying to adjust the chain back to within spec. I can't seem to do it so I wanted to take it to a place to get fixed. It's about 10-15 mi away. How much damage if I rode it there?

[subxero]

^ impossible to say with out seeing it, besides you may not want to risk riding to a shop to get work done expecting to ride the bike back out of the shop fixed that same day.

For both reasons it is a much better idea to transport the bike there and drop it off.

Just need a pick-up truck, and maybe a buddy with a pick up truck.... and a ramp, or a board and a short wall/hill to load from... or a shop that will pick up the bike for you.... you get the idea.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by spc2125

Question: I'm getting noise from front sprocket after removing my rear wheel and trying to adjust the chain back to within spec. I can't seem to do it so I wanted to take it to a place to get fixed. It's about 10-15 mi away. How much damage if I rode it there?

how much can you spin it?