August 2nd, 2017, 12:15 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Chris
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2017 Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki Ninja EX250-F Posts: 3
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"New" Vesrah pads feel smooth and not gritty. Is this right?
Hello members of ninjette, hope you're all having a good week. Making this post in regard to some "new" vesrah sintered HH pads I bought off of ebay for my bike.... They are the model VD 427 JL for the front brakes. I just opened the "new" package, which was obviously opened up before and closed again with staples/tape. But I guess this doesnt mean they were definitely used and put back in the pacakage.. Hence this post.
After further inspection of the pads, the material feels smooth (minimal grittyness) and leaves some residue if I rub them with my fingers.. The package looks old, so maybe this just built up overtime or bouncing around when shipping.. Idk. Is this how a sintered pad they should be? Or are the pads likely used and need to be returned? My organic kevlars felt very gritty out of the packages, these are my first sintered pads. Any help is appreciated!! |
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August 2nd, 2017, 02:12 PM | #2 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Hi and welcome!
Post photos of your pads and let's see what they look like. Organic pads are at bottom of performance heap, so it's not uncommon for them to have inconsistent composition. |
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August 2nd, 2017, 03:27 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
Location: Appleton, WI
Join Date: Apr 2015 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300 (race), Ninja 1000 (road) Posts: 504
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Should have got RJL pads, way better especially for "classic" brake equipment. Sintered pads are garbage.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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August 2nd, 2017, 03:38 PM | #4 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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^^^ I have no clue what John is talking about.
Been using sintered pads for years. I made the switch to the vesrahs about 2yrs ago. Nothing but good comments on them in my experience. ps... Moved my brake marker about a bike length in the brake zone. That is positive in my book.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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August 2nd, 2017, 06:42 PM | #5 |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
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August 2nd, 2017, 07:02 PM | #6 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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You should be able to see if they're used by looking for the streaks that would be made by the rotating disk, and by the thickness. Heck, I bought a used Ninja 250 caliper and made an adapter so I could put it on my 1972 H2. It had EBC HH sindered pads that were about 1/4 worn out, but they still work very well, so I'm going to go ahead and use them.
EBC HH sintered pads are good in my experience. |
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August 2nd, 2017, 07:47 PM | #7 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: al
Location: NorCal
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): ex300, gave up looking for a 250 Posts: 435
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Maybe you can see enough of the pads in my pic?
Full size https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4281/3...8b2a3144_o.jpg |
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August 2nd, 2017, 08:32 PM | #8 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
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I can't see much, but an opened package may mean that someone tried to use them and discovered they were the wrong ones, so he put them back in the package.
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August 3rd, 2017, 07:40 AM | #9 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
Location: Appleton, WI
Join Date: Apr 2015 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300 (race), Ninja 1000 (road) Posts: 504
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Quote:
The pad the OP bought are bottom of the barrel and in general purchased because they are cheap. Weak initial bite and not fade resistant at all. But... The pads are probably fine if the bike is just a commuter and replacing old OEM pads. I know RJL's are popular on SV650's too.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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August 3rd, 2017, 07:48 AM | #10 | |
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Name: Aaron
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Quote:
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August 3rd, 2017, 08:50 AM | #11 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
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Well, interesting stuff going on here.
Is this just an SV thing? I have tried many different pads but always seem to come back to something sintered. Honestly, I am confused AF.... I lift the rear on corner entry every track day and have raced enough races to know that my EBC HH (250 & r6) and Vesrah on the track bike get the job done enough to be damn near lap record pace. Pretty open minded guy here... What gives on the RJL's? Is it just the initial bite you guys are looking for? If so.... then we can talk further about 200ft+ of sustained EXTREME braking. The initial bite is important, but it aint everything. In fact, the more I ride, the less extreme initial bite I want. Application is important though, skill and street vs track riding will dictate what you like better I am guessing by the context of this thread. Help a guy out here, what is the real deal?
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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August 3rd, 2017, 11:38 AM | #12 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
Location: Appleton, WI
Join Date: Apr 2015 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300 (race), Ninja 1000 (road) Posts: 504
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When you say EBC HH, you have to specificy which ones. The base model HH sintered or organic are horrible. The only good ebc pads are EPFA (Extreme Pro) and GPFA (racing)
Base model HH pads (of any make) generally have lower friction, initial and sustained, and lower fade resistance. EP and GP are both fade resistant and higher friction but differ a bit. EP pads have lower initial bite while GP is higher initial bite. GP pads also have to heat up more so they are considered racing only. My 675R I used EP because with the Brembo power on those GP is too much that control via level modulation is more difficult. But if you enjoy 1 finger braking on supersports and can get good lever control, GP might work. Brake systems that are weak from the factory such as Ninja 250 and 300 and SV650's, need both higher initial bite and higher sustained resistance. Then not only do you get more braking force with your initial grab, you get more control via less grip strength required at the lever. I think Vesrah RJL are somewhere between EP and GP and they are totally fade resistant. EBC doesn't make GP pads for these crusty old calipers. I would be all over them if they did. But Vesrah RJL's come close. I've heard so many complaints about base model HH pads at the race track that I would never run them. I've seen some warped into a smiley face shape. My very first track day years ago I had base model HH pads. Weak, fading crap. I hated them. All IMHO. everyone has differing experiences.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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August 3rd, 2017, 11:45 AM | #13 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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I'll have to double check, but I thought all EBC HH pads were sintered, and I didn't think EBC sold more than one type of HH rated pads. HH, of course, refers to the coefficient of friction, numbers farther from A being higher. The first letter refers to cold pads and the second hot.
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August 3rd, 2017, 11:57 AM | #14 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
Location: Appleton, WI
Join Date: Apr 2015 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300 (race), Ninja 1000 (road) Posts: 504
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Braking performance for various Vesrah pads:
Why aren't the regular plain JL pads shown here? Because people who buy them are generally not concerned about performance.
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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August 3rd, 2017, 12:49 PM | #15 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
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I'm currently running the EBC Extreme HH pad on both the 250, and 500 and I'm very happy with their performance.
To each his own.
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August 3rd, 2017, 01:06 PM | #16 | |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
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Quote:
Thanks y'alls for the added info.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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August 3rd, 2017, 01:24 PM | #17 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: John
Location: Appleton, WI
Join Date: Apr 2015 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300 (race), Ninja 1000 (road) Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Ninja 300 - CCS Ultralight Thunderbike Racing I want to "like" your post but I can't due to forum rules. Sorry. |
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August 3rd, 2017, 01:47 PM | #18 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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I checked EBC's site and the DOT brake pad codes. It looks like any pad with a coefficient of friction between 0.55 and 0.65 is considered HH. EBC does say the GPFAX pads are race-only, very high friction and not recommended for street use. They're only good for racing tires on a race-prepared surface. I learned something today.
I may try their EPFA pads on the H2 next time, which they say are based on their HH pads, with some additional ingredients. |
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August 4th, 2017, 08:01 PM | #19 |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Chris
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2017 Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki Ninja EX250-F Posts: 3
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Thanks for all the feedback everyone, sorry for the late reply. Just gettting back on here now. Happy Friday!
After getting some feedback from a couple of sources the other day I installed the pads. Having just finished a caliper rebuild along with changing out the pads and deglazing the rotor, I tried the zip tie trick to help finish bleeding.. The brake pads themselves felt pretty good after some bed-in stops, and I like the rough bite I get off the pads. Still cant get a firm lever though.. Pretty stuck atm. Might need to rebuild the master cylinder or replace the oem lines (This is a used 2000 EX250, probably never had the lines swapped). However I'm having trouble seeing how it could be anything but air in the lines. Before I rebuilt the nasty gunked up front caliper the brakes were plenty firm when you pressed the lever.. But I did stupidly let the MC get completely dry when removing the line from the caliper, so I started with a dry MC when refilling the system. Took me using a long hose on the caliper's bleeder valve and making a vacuum with my mouth to get the fluid moving again. After this I went on to try conventional bleeding, the zip tie trick twice (tapping the lines etc.), bled at the MC banjo bolt (which definitely had air in it, first bleed splattered all over the place), and replacing with fresh fluid after the zip tie trick to help remove the contaminated fluid. Even tried reverse bleed method with a syringe/hose, but the syringe could have been better for this application. So I'm up for buying one of those big animal feeder ones and trying it again.. My first attempt at the reverse bleed got me a lot closer to having a good lever, but still no luck :/. After the last attempt at the zip tie trick I still only have like 40-60% of what should be there. Haven't measured the rotor or anything yet, but it looks fine and I haven't had any brake wobble since purchasing this bike. Hoping to get this done soon, considering buying a vacuum bleeder and trying that next. |
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August 4th, 2017, 08:03 PM | #20 |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Chris
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2017 Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki Ninja EX250-F Posts: 3
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Here are the pics of my pads before I installed them. sorry I forgot to link them!
http://imgur.com/a/moTEV http://imgur.com/a/5qsw2 http://imgur.com/a/OF5OY |
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August 4th, 2017, 09:12 PM | #21 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
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If everything is uphill from the caliper to the MC, it may get better with time. Every front brake system I have on my motorcycles will bleed themselves, given enough squeezes of the lever, even without tying the lever to the handlebar overnight.
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August 4th, 2017, 10:09 PM | #22 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Alistair
Location: Auckland NZ
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): CMR TZ750 Yamaha, McIntosh TZ350 Yamaha, OW01 Yamaha, 300 Ninja Lightweight production Bike Posts: 14
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Quote:
I'd just give them a quick blast with some brake clean or contact cleaner and get them in.
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August 4th, 2017, 10:19 PM | #23 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Alistair
Location: Auckland NZ
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): CMR TZ750 Yamaha, McIntosh TZ350 Yamaha, OW01 Yamaha, 300 Ninja Lightweight production Bike Posts: 14
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Quote:
BUT, I have to say I ordered up a set of HH's for the Ninja as they are the pads I like and frankly was disappointed. Stopped okay, but no matter what I did, I could not get a good lever. Always lots of travel and not very good on the confidence scale. I fitted a set of Street Sinter Vortex pads and even when the pads were not even bedded in the lever "came back" and was what you'd expect to feel for a nicely bled system. Never had that before. The Vortex pads wear fast though...two - three days of racing and they are done, where I usually get ages out of everything else. Thanks for your comments on the the GPFA andf EPFA etc - I have not until recently found them for many of my bikes.
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August 5th, 2017, 12:37 AM | #24 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
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Bill |
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