April 26th, 2014, 03:23 PM | #41 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: ricardo
Location: maryland
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i did this mod a while ago on my 08 ninja. Then i remember that it was way too stiff and went back to the old shock. about 50k miles later my original shock went bad and im not using the gsxr shock. My question to you is dont you find it very VERY stiff? mine is. Im trying to adjust it, how do you make the thing a little softer?
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April 26th, 2014, 05:27 PM | #42 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Hansveer
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April 26th, 2014, 05:53 PM | #43 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: ricardo
Location: maryland
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wouldnt the gsxr1000 shock spring be even stiffer?
my fork seals are busted too, so it looks like my suspension is all over the place. |
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April 26th, 2014, 06:24 PM | #44 |
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Nope... The older gsxr 1000 uses an 8.1 spring while your 600 spring is 9.4
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April 26th, 2014, 10:06 PM | #45 | |
Freedom for Germany
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June 6th, 2015, 09:29 AM | #46 |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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Here's a quick chart of stock spring rates on the little Ninjas and GSXR shocks, taken from RaceTech's calculators. This is just to make it easier to see which bikes have which spring rates. I don't know if all of these shocks can be easily DIYed or if the springs will swap between all the different GSXR shocks.
I've also included the ideal rider weights for race and street from RT's NewGen calculator. These are just numbers based on RT's formula, not race-proven experience. They're not gospel, but they should give you an idea what spring rate you should be looking for and/or how far off your current spring is. Note that in his suspension thread a while back, rojoracing53 said that RT's calculator gave results that didn't match his real-world testing, and that the stock rear spring still seemed to be too soft for his Code:
BIKE MODEL RATE (kg/mm) RATE (lb/in) RIDER (lb) EX500 OEM 5.4 300 <30 PreGen OEM 7.9 440 136-144 NewGen OEM 9.3 520 209-218 98-00 GSXR600 6.4 360 58-64 01-03 GSXR600 8.0 450 141-149 04-05 GSXR600 7.6 425 120-128 06-09 GSXR600 9.4 525 214-224 11-13 GSXR600 10.1 565 250-261 00-03 GSXR750 7.2 400 99-107 04-05 GSXR750 7.3 410 105-112 06-07 GSXR750 9.5 530 219-229 08-10 GSXR750 9.5 530 219-229 11-13 GSXR750 10.5 590 271-282 01-02 GSXR1000 7.7 430 125-133 03-04 GSXR1000 8.6 480 172-181 05-06 GSXR1000 8.1 455 146-155 07-08 GSXR1000 10.1 565 250-261 09-11 GSXR1000 11.6 650 329-341
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June 7th, 2015, 12:57 AM | #47 |
Freedom for Germany
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@InvisiBill, thanks for that work
From what I think maybe it would be a good idea to have all your information in one thread - rear and front end. What do you think about? |
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June 8th, 2015, 05:44 AM | #48 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
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9.3 kg/mm? is that really the new gen spring? I would have never guess it was that high
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June 8th, 2015, 06:58 AM | #49 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
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Maybe I'll add something to https://www.ninjette.org/wiki/ with all this data...
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June 8th, 2015, 07:26 AM | #50 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
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The NewGen shock/spring is a huge improvement on my 500 with my fat butt. I had an SV shock (its rate is similar to the PreGen's) installed before, but there was a bit of binding on the clevis, so it wasn't actually operating properly, so I don't have a good direct comparison between the two rates. I have a Penske with a 525# spring waiting to go on, so that should be a good indicator if the NewGen is actually 520#. Between all the different shocks/springs I have, I can probably figure out which it's closest to at least (assuming I'm able to sufficiently notice the different spring rates while riding). Honestly, it surprised me that nobody mentioned the rear being too stiff for many Ninjette riders' weights, especially with the fork springs being so soft. Rojo's statement that it was actually too soft for him goes even further beyond that. Even if it's about the same as the PreGen, that's still almost 50% stiffer than my stock 500 spring, so it would still be a huge improvement even if wasn't the full 9.3kg/mm listed.
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June 8th, 2015, 03:32 PM | #51 |
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Yes... but consider where that statement is coming from. It's someone with a medalled racing pedigree in AMA Superbike. Of course it's too soft for him.
This is not a cookie cutter comparison you're making here, Bill. Average Joe like you and me has problems with the front loooooong before the rear, likely would appreciate damping adjustment on the rear rather than spring rate change. |
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June 10th, 2015, 07:42 AM | #52 | ||
EX500 full of EX250 parts
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With that much difference, I'm inclined to believe there's a problem with RT's data or formula. I know that small suspension measurement differences can result in large changes in the final numbers, but all these little Ninjas have pretty similar suspensions (as indicated by the ease of swapping their parts around), and the NewGen calculator seems to match up pretty well to the race-accepted numbers for the 500. That makes me think their formula isn't insanely wrong. Based on the Ninjas' history of soft springs, it wouldn't surprise me if the NewGen rear is actually softer than the listed 9.3kg/mm. Maybe real racers really do just use springs that much stiffer. He did say that their fork spring calculations (a while back, before changes of some sort were made to the NewGen calc) were low too. Or maybe he's just a fatty in denial about his actual weight. Quote:
I've installed a couple springs on one street bike, so obviously I'm an expert now. =) But I tend to agree with the general idea that getting the proper spring rate should be the first step. That'll get it bouncing in the right range, allowing the damping to be most efficient. If the spring is too soft, it'll be moving too much and the damping system will be straining to control the excess movement. But if the spring is too stiff, then it's already not moving enough, so restraining the already-lacking movement isn't going to help any. Luckily, the GSXR shock can take care of both spring rate and damping settings (assuming you choose one with a spring matching your weight) so you don't have to choose one or the other. The 600 shocks that most people seem to be using have spring rates in the same range as the PreGen and NewGen OEM springs, so most people probably ended up ok (e.g. the '06-'09 is pretty much the same as the stocker (based on RT's listed data)). It just seemed to me that a lot of people didn't know/care what they needed for their weight or what they were installing - they just heard that a GSXR shock was an upgrade so they bought the cheapest one off eBay. A different year 600 or a 750/1000 might have a spring that better matches the person's weight, rather than just duplicating the stock numbers. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but I got the impression that people weren't necessarily informed enough to make the best decision. If you can just make a slightly different model choice when buying your GSXR shock and get one with a spring better suited to your weight, it makes the DIY that much better.
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June 10th, 2015, 07:58 AM | #53 | |
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Name: Neil
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A damper transforms the unwanted KE/PE into thermal energy and spreads it to another media (air). A damper being adjusted up and down to transform more or less of that energy cannot correct a spring that does not have the capability of handling the energy input needed to be stored sufficiently. In the same token but on the opposite side, a spring that does not deflect because it stores and returns KE far to quickly will not allow the tire to track the surface of the road/track and no amount of increase/decrease in damper function is going to change that. Spring first -> Dampen second
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June 10th, 2015, 08:05 AM | #54 | ||
The Corner Whisperer
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Rear chatter while hard on the front brake (harder than your average track rider) Front pushing because rear will not give up enough travel/speed of travel so the tires, forks and frame must absorb the force Numb feeling of traction from the rear - too much preload or wrong spring Too much track feedback from the rear - too much preload or wrong spring Quote:
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June 10th, 2015, 10:13 AM | #55 | |
dirty boy
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But we all know shocks are more than just springs, there are valves, if you are going to go through the trouble of getting the correct spring, that still doesn't mean it is going to work any better on that actual shock as the valving can be way off. Might be a step in the right direction but with a new spring you are still only addressing some of the potential problems and I don't think the gsxr shocks can be rebuilt/revalved very easily or cheaply for that matter. In short, sticking with the stock spring on the gsxr shock isn't all that bad or big of a deal. If you are going to drop $70 or so to make the conversion work then another $110 for a new spring you are $180 into it, that is a good chunk towards an aftermarket shock built specifically for you and the ninja that keeps the stock geometry. If I could go back and do it again I would probably have went aftermarket
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June 10th, 2015, 11:12 AM | #56 | |
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June 10th, 2015, 11:16 AM | #57 | |
dirty boy
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budget replacement that works and gives you lots of adjustment vs stock shock that works and gives you no adjustment
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June 10th, 2015, 11:19 AM | #58 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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The 500 guys are lucky in that the PreGen spring (or SV650 shock) is good for a ~180lb rider and the NewGen/300 shock/spring is good for bigger guys. We have a few drop-in options that cover a pretty good range of common adult sizes. They're all cheap, non-adjustable shocks, but the horrible stock spring rate means that getting the right rate is a huge upgrade, even if you can't tweak the shock. But if you can buy a slightly different $25 GSXR shock that will fit the Ninja the same, or buy a second $25 GSXR shock and swap the springs, you might get much better results than just accepting the default one mentioned in the DIY. I'm not sure about the origins of the GSXR shock swap - the fact that it matches the stock spring rate might be carefully researched or pure coincidence. And there seems to be some question about the applicability of the stock rate too. I found a deal on a used Penske and jumped on it. However, I've been happy enough with the NewGen shock that I haven't bothered to install it yet (the Penske really is overkill for me). The Penske also uses standard(ish?) 6"x2" springs, so it's fairly easy to find replacements pretty cheap (though maybe not in the exact rate you want).
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June 10th, 2015, 05:03 PM | #59 | |
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also, dude. you've had a lot of time to think about the RT calculator... Don't take that the wrong way. just... wow. ^^ werd. You're totally right. but hear me out. average joe or average sally rides their ninja. They've been riding 3 years, no track time. Comfortable and safe in twisties, able to ride spirited but not dragging knee. Comfortable enough to have some fun, but smart enough to be cautious still. Where do these riders notice the front end? Bumps. brake dive, corner vagueness. They want that fixed soon. Where do they feel the rear end? It pogo's over bumps. Maybe they play with the preload a little to stop it from squatting a ton when they just sit on it. But realistically the rear end for an average rider on street is low on rebound damping more than it is undersprung. What I'm saying is that an average rider is going to want a damping change in the rear before they'll really want spring changes. |
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June 10th, 2015, 05:05 PM | #60 |
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Just putting this out there... no it's not.
If it is, then the 500's suspension geometry is different enough from the pregen that you're not comparing apples to apples with all your spring rate thoughts. EDIT: wait... pregen spring or pregen shock? I've never seen someone change the spring rate on the stock pregen shock. Just not worth it. |
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June 10th, 2015, 06:01 PM | #61 | ||
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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Quote:
Quote:
I haven't done any extensive testing on it, I'm just accepting the word of guys who've been racing these for a long time. So far, their numbers have given me good results. Like I said, the NewGen shock/spring has been such an improvement that I've had a used Penske sitting here in the box for a year because it's just sooooo much work to bolt it in and strap the reservoir to the frame.
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June 10th, 2015, 07:21 PM | #62 |
Freedom for Germany
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@InvisiBill I agree with all you said about the rear shock.
After I bought a new shock from YSS for my bike I'd order it with a 85 N/mm spring (the standard is 80 N/mm) and from what I feel and think now with riding my Ninja I'd better took the standard spring, since my bike still feels really stiff (at the lowest point of pre-load). And let me say one word about the GSX-R shock, when one reads in the German gixxer forums one can read that around 50% of all 600/750 Gixxer-rider (not the 1000 cc) change the spring of the rear shock to a softer one and this also means nearly no rider is happy with the rear spring, but some guys just take it like it is. And this I think can be transfered to Ninja-riders also, even when the spring is to stiff nobody will talk about this, because that means confirming a wrong decision was made. Also since humans are some kind of herd they always follow what others did or say |
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June 10th, 2015, 07:37 PM | #63 | |
Blind 250 Loving Whore
Name: Tom
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It's stiff for sure. I'm able to be backed out on pre-load and just hit ~30ish sag. If you're ~180lbs I still think it's a bang for your buck thing using the shock as is. |
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June 11th, 2015, 01:06 AM | #64 | |
Freedom for Germany
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But please remember what you are doing: - with a shorter shock (which from the low sales price could be understood at the end of its life-cycle already) made for a complete different bike (and not only from progression) you are changing the progression of the Ninja's suspension in one way - just to then use different dog bones to change the progression more backwards in the opposite way and this only to talk about height and not about the internal components of the gixxer-shock. But like I said, you must feel and be happy with this mod |
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June 12th, 2015, 03:41 AM | #65 | |
Freedom for Germany
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Here please note that my number of free coils might not be exactly correct so I think the given 9.3 kg/mm spring rate should be the real number. |
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September 10th, 2015, 02:33 PM | #66 |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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I got looking at the old Intiminator thread on the SV forum, and ended up browsing some of their shock upgrade stuff. It seems they're using ZX-10/14 shocks for budget upgrades.
Code:
BIKE MODEL RATE (kg/mm) RATE (lb/in) RIDER (lb) 06-07 ZX-10R 8.3 465 157-166 06-11 ZX-14R 9.7 543 230-240 I was hoping to find a comparable Kawasaki shock that wouldn't require messing with the mounting stuff. Unfortunately, these both use 10mm mounting bolts, so they'll still require the same mods as the GSXR shock there. The width may or may not fit our little Ninjas better. RT does list the same replacement spring part numbers for these and the GSXRs, so they might serve as cheap spring donors if nothing else. They talked about getting these dirt cheap (under $30), but they seem to be closer to $100 on eBay now. If these manage to be less work to get installed and/or you do find one cheap, they might still be a good budget upgrade. Hopefully someone here has access to one of these shocks (or is willing to buy one as a guinea pig) and can see how applicable it is.
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December 14th, 2015, 04:16 PM | #67 | |
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DISCLAIMERv1.0: There may be more info on the topic than this forum post. Conduct your own research. If another thread is linked or quoted, go read it yourself. |
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December 14th, 2015, 10:08 PM | #68 | |
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Just noticed this thread come across the portal page and since I have still yet to install the GSXR shock I bought like two years ago I figured I'd glance at what you guys have figured out. It would seem you've done quite a bit of homework since last I checked. Couple quick notes. Yes very fast racers use stiff springs then most and the calculators can't compensate for this because there's like only 2% of racers that fall into that scenario. My forks noticeably stiff on the street but at least when I have to jam on the brakes they are there to hold me up. Because my fork are so stiff my stock shock feels even softer then before but I can deal with that because it's not dangerous. The rear shock is only an issue at this point while on the track which hasn't happened for a while and won't be happening again any time soon. It's also too soft when I'm bike camping with all my gear and the MTB on the rear, it actually bottoms out with a noticeable bump over big dips and such. Sadly my laziness dictates It'll still be quite awhile longer before I get to installing that GSXR shock. |
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December 15th, 2015, 06:59 AM | #69 |
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Do it already, you bum.
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July 8th, 2016, 06:56 PM | #70 |
ninjette.org member
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bump ......
This topic has me getting ready to hit up my boxed oem stuff. (I did swap them all out for tunability reasons.) The sec gen 10r shock mentioned above got my attention since I know that one of those sits in a box that an SV 1000 owner wanted. I am still new to the 250, but keep up on the good reads. |
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July 8th, 2019, 10:43 PM | #71 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Updating this DIY guide to simplify and make it even easier to do. For those wishing to install GSX-R shocks on Ninjette, there is no need to drill out upper shock bushing or your frame mounts. The 10mm bolt used for GSX-R shock is fine because it generates sufficient friction to hold bushing in between ears.
To use factory unmolested 12mm mounting ears and 10mm shock eyelet, you just need two sleeves like this. Might need to remove 1mm from width to not extend beyond width of mounting ears on frame. These fill up larger hole in frame mounting ears and allows simple bolt-on use of GSX-R 10mm bolt. Polaris # 5135275 - https://www.ebay.com/itm/302898035590 |
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May 30th, 2020, 09:56 AM | #72 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Cal
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Jun 2017 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 180
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Quote:
Btw does anyone have any pics of the cutout they had to do to the rear underplastic to get this to fit? I'm trying to picture what it will look like after cutting plastics, and how to mitigate any issues with the cutout and riding in wet weather |
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May 30th, 2020, 10:27 AM | #73 | |
Blind 250 Loving Whore
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May 30th, 2020, 10:32 AM | #74 |
Blind 250 Loving Whore
Name: Tom
Location: Chesapeake, VA
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Here's how mine looks. Luckily the carbs are out with Gordon so pics were easy lol.
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May 30th, 2020, 10:58 AM | #75 | |
ninjette.org member
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Quote:
Maybe I could use a small lithium ion battery instead to make space and add some kind of block off rubber mat/plastic/metal where the cut above the shock. |
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May 30th, 2020, 11:14 AM | #76 | |
Blind 250 Loving Whore
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May 30th, 2020, 03:50 PM | #77 |
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Depending upon specific GSX-R shock you get, amount to cut from fender-liner will vary. Get shock first, then see where it interferes and cut minimum amount needed.
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May 30th, 2020, 06:38 PM | #78 | |
ninjette.org member
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Quote:
I'm thinking about grabbing an 03-04 GSXR 1000 shock. I'm 176lbs without gear and I've got a SW Motech rack in the back that adds some weight. I just added 0.75kg racetech springs w/ 15w fork oil. I left the oil height stock for now, Ill probably start adjusting it this coming week as I don't think I'm using all of my fork travel. I actually forgot to mark where the fork bottoms out so I gotta go back in anyway, and I figure I'll pull out some oil and try 120mm oil height and see how that plays out |
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May 31st, 2020, 06:51 AM | #79 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 2
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I ran the 600 with a 1000 spring with minimal cutting. I cannot remember the specs or year shock I used.
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HalfFast Racing Team Serving Greater Houston Area Riders:WFO Riders MotoHouston HPC CMRA Ride Smart Fastline Lone Star Track Days |
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December 10th, 2022, 05:17 PM | #80 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ben
Location: Portland
Join Date: May 2022 Motorcycle(s): '10 Ninja 250R (track), '20 Street Triple 765 (street), '12 CRF150R SM (racing) Posts: 55
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Hi All. I realize that this is an old thread, but I'm hoping you all can help. I bought a get 2 ninjette race bike. It has the GSXR shock installed. I spent the summer dragging rears pegs, burning through boots and generally looking like a fool who doesn't know how to set up a bike. I need to raise the rear over the winter. Ordered raising links from Burkahrt a month and a half ago. No confirmation outside of the website account showing the order pending. No responses. Not sure they will ever come seeing as how it is now 11 years later than this thread started.
So, can anyone help me with dog bone measurements. I have access to a CNC router and am capable of making my own if I have a staring point on measurements. Looking to raise the rear 1.25". Any help is much appreciated. Thanks. |
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