June 4th, 2020, 11:37 AM | #1 |
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06' Ninja 250 Won't Start Help
I recently purchased a second hand 2006 Ninja 250. The bike ran great for about two weeks (other than an occasional issue cranking which I repaired by replacing the starter motor) until a few days after I changed the oil. After this the bike would have trouble starting even with the choke and would die after 5-10 minutes. Since then I have overhauled the carbs, replaced the fuel line from the carb to petcock, emptied and cleaned the gas tank, replaced the inline fuel filter, and cleaned the airbox and air filter. My most recent fix, overhauling the carb, made it so I can start the bike without choke, but it will only start when starter fluid is sprayed into the carb through the air box or occasionally when the clutch is engaged, kickstand up, and is in first gear. In addition to this the bike still dies after riding a few minutes. I'd appreciate any help I can get.
Thanks, Chase |
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June 4th, 2020, 12:12 PM | #2 | |
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Quote:
Vacuum line to the petcock may be damaged or petcock malfunctioning. Gas tank may not be venting properly. EDIT: Did you remove the idle mixture screws, make sure the passages are clear, and confirm the o-ring is in good condition when you had the carbs off? Screws should be set to 2.5 turns out initially, with final adjustments being done when everything is working properly, engine is warm, and carbs are synced. Last futzed with by jkv45; June 5th, 2020 at 06:44 AM. |
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June 4th, 2020, 06:45 PM | #3 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Might be flow-volume issue. Check that petcock gets adequate vacuum. No cracked hoses. Ends should be secured in place with clamps. Test petcock flow collected into measuring cup for 30-sec. How much did it flow? |
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June 7th, 2020, 02:18 PM | #4 |
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I just finished checking the plugs and they were covered in carbon I attached a photo. I replaced them with correctly gapped new plugs and checked for a spark with both wires. Both wires showed a spark. I checked the petcock and when I sucked on the end of the vacation tube gas flows fine. I did notice that when I put my finger over the vacuum tube coming out of the carb and cranked the engine that the suction felt sporadic. I was only able to get the bike started for a short while after I covered the petcock vacuum tube coming from the carb with my finger and cranked the engine. This makes me think that the bike is possible running rich? What do yall think. I tried making adjustments to the carb fuel/air mixture screws by slightly unscrewing to make it run leaner. This had no effect on the bikes ability to start. What do yall think?
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June 7th, 2020, 04:11 PM | #5 |
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Petcock flow is binary, it's either flowing or not. But doesn't really determine AFR, unless it's lean from flowing too little.
Rich could mean previous-owner hogged out jets. Rich could mean float-valves aren't working Rich could mean float-levels aren't adjusted properly. These are best-case scenarios. Most likely you'll need complete overhaul and restoration. Also unscrewing mixture-screws makes it richer, not leaner. First find what the adjustment is set to before making changes. Turn in tightening direction and count number of turns and 1/16th-1/8th turns until it bottoms-out (i.e. 2+5/8th turns, 3+3/16th turns, etc). With that number, we can make a wild guess where to go next. |
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June 7th, 2020, 04:32 PM | #6 |
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DannoXYZ I actually overhauled the carb a few days ago. Is it possible that I could have put the carb back togeather incorrectly. It has been able to start a few times since then.
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June 7th, 2020, 05:29 PM | #7 |
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Hmm, possible assembly issue. Most parts just fit together without any adjustments needed. Unlike other types of carbs, various jets cannot be interchanged or mixed up. Only adjustment that may vary is pilot-adjustment, float-height and carb-sync (did you separate the carbs to replace fuel-rail O-ring?).
Running too-rich was problem someone had couple months ago where it was discovered previous-owner had drilled out jets. Bike was actually able to start with pilot-screws turned in all the way (leanest setting). You may want to measure all jets with wires of known diameter. Also measure how many turns your pilot-screws are set to. Did you: - replace all rubber parts: float-valves, pilot-screw O-rings, fuel-rail O-rings, carb-bowl seals? - soak in ultrasonic cleaner for hours with polar solvent? - floss all jets and bleed-holes with soft copper wire? - scrub out all fuel-flow passages from tank to engine? - soda-blast all hidden secret fuel-circuits in carbs? If not, there's still more to do on those carbs. Here's illustrated guide to get you started. Here's rebuild-kit for petcock: https://www.ebay.com/itm/312734032287 Rebuild-kit for carbs: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233439356307 You're not first one to have carb issues. And these problems after 1st-cleaning are exactly what others ran into as well. These bikes have been around for +25-years, so solutions are well-known. People who can rebuild engines with their teeth and hands tied behind their back have had to pull carbs 4-5x to do ever deeper cleaning. Do search on this board for "clean carbs ducatiman" for tips. The idea is to get carbs back to factory-fresh clean like when they left showroom floor. Basically requires replacing all consumables and disassemble down to every last nut & bolt and physically scrub each and every part until it's shiny, gleaming and factory-fresh clean. Bike will run like screaming banshee fast when carbs are fully restored. |
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June 7th, 2020, 05:46 PM | #8 |
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That's great to hear I think I'll try to tighten those screws a little more to see what will happen, but either way I'll pull out the carb tomorrow and give it a better cleaning. I did not separate the two carbs, soak, or soda blast, but I did do the rest. I'll let you know what happens after I make a few adjustments.
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June 9th, 2020, 01:01 PM | #9 |
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Just did another carb clean. And I noticed that the previous owner had reattached the choke bracket so that it would always be a little open. And I found a missing hose which should connect to a T joint in the carb anyone have any idea what that might be?
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June 9th, 2020, 01:47 PM | #10 |
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That sounds like the overflow tube.
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June 9th, 2020, 02:35 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
Yup, hose at T junction is an atmospheric vent. It provides reference signal to float-bowls for determining how much fuel is metered. Regular maintenance should including inspecting that hose and cleaning it out if necesasry. I've found dirt, grass and even spider's nest clogging that hose. What additional cleaning did you do that wasn't done before? Did you poke out all lateral bleed holes in emulsion-tube and pilot jets? Did you scrub all hidden secret fuel-circuits in carb-body? How many turns-out is your pilot-adjustment set to before? and now? |
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June 9th, 2020, 06:36 PM | #12 |
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I boiled some of the really gunked up parts, deep cleaned the bleed holes, cleaned this attached part which had another smaller diaphram, and after I cleaned everything else I used my air compressor to blow everything else out.
Should I attach a hose to that T joint or is it not necessary, also my gas tank is missing a overflow hose should I replace that as well? |
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June 9th, 2020, 07:54 PM | #13 |
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Probably s good idea to have both connected to hoses
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June 10th, 2020, 09:27 AM | #14 |
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Anyone have any idea where the carb T atmospheric vent hose connects? Or is it left attached to only the carb and routed somewhere? Also anybody knows where the gas tank overflow hose should attach? Or is it left attached to only the tank and routed somewhere? And if just routed where would each hose end?
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June 10th, 2020, 09:44 AM | #15 |
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Open ends of both vent hoses goes down past shock and aims down towards ground. There's a wire loop near shock to guide them.
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June 10th, 2020, 02:01 PM | #16 |
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Well after my second time cleaning and overhauling the carb it still won't run well. After cranking for a while and adjusting the fuel/air mixture screws all the way in I was able to get it started, but the rpms fluctuate dramatically until the bike eventually dies. Is there any chance something electrical could be the issue. When I checked for a spark it wasn't blue or too bright, maybe weak? And if so would that be related to the plug wires, ignition coils or what?
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June 10th, 2020, 02:37 PM | #17 |
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What you are experience is not uncommon at all. Many, many people have had these exact symptoms.
Pilot screws all way in and still being able to start is sure sign there's internal issues with carbs. Possible jet-drilling by previous owners. And/or corroded/crumbling pilot O-rings. Did you replace those? Also leaking fuel-rail O-rings will suck in air and cause random variations in AFR. On my race bike, this caused AFR to be lean on one cylinder on left turns and lean on other cylinder on right turns. Ignition issues do not vary. If you have weak spark which causes sputtering and poor running, it will exhibit these symptoms full-time, from first start onwards. If too weak, it won't start at all. But will not cause running for a while and stopping. Your issues with dying out sounds like fuel-flow issues. Test petcock-flow rate and actual vacuum in hose going to petcock. It's not uncommon for diaphragm in petcock to harden, crack and leak over time. Causing insufficient activation and low flow-rates. While bike sits, it will actually leak fuel slowly into carbs and fill float-bowl. However, when bike starts, fuel-consumption is higher than leaky petcock is able to deliver and float-bowls run dry and bike stops after about a minute (exactly 1/2 lap at Thunderhill, wonder how I know?). Leaky vacuum hose between carb and petcock will also cause similar symptom. That's why you'll want to measure actual flow-rate from petcock to rule it out as contributor to issues. |
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June 10th, 2020, 06:01 PM | #18 | |
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Quote:
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June 11th, 2020, 06:24 AM | #19 |
Rev Limiter
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What they said...
Also check that your battery is fully charged (over 12.7V). A low battery can sometimes still start the engine but can cause odd running problems. Make sure you have this piece properly in place in both carbs - https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/File:846663-2.jpg https://faq.ninja250.org/images/e/eb/Jim_carb_2.jpg Visible here right below the slides - https://faq.ninja250.org/images/2/2f/IMG_2309.jpg The carb info and photos in this section may help you - https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Intake Last futzed with by jkv45; June 11th, 2020 at 10:04 AM. Reason: typo |
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June 11th, 2020, 09:32 AM | #20 |
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Also orientation of that needle jet/collar is important as well. The larger opening beveled end faces the needle.
Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; June 15th, 2020 at 11:40 PM. |
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June 16th, 2020, 07:43 AM | #21 |
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DannoXYZ, Ducatiman, JKV45
So I've actually been jump starting the bike with my car battery so the motorcycle battery should't be an issue at least at the moment. Earlier today I ran a few fuel flow tests from the petcock lasting 30 seconds each. (Test 1) First I attached a seperate line to the petcocks vacuum port and inhaled through it with the fuel line disconnected from the carb after the inline fuel filter. (Test 2) Next I detached the fuel line at the petcock and inhaled through the vacuum line I connected. (Test 3) And finally I reconnected the vacuum line to the carb and cranked the motor catching fuel as it came out of the petcock. The results were as follows. 30 Second Interval Tests: Test One - 125mL of Fuel Test Two - 125mL of Fuel Test Three - 25mL of Fuel Does this mean I have an issue with my vacuum coming from the carburetor or is this normal? Thanks, Chase |
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June 16th, 2020, 09:45 AM | #22 | |
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Quote:
If you have a dead or failing battery, replace it before doing much else. |
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June 16th, 2020, 09:55 AM | #23 |
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Yeah, test battery:
- measure voltage with bike off - measure voltage while cranking - measure voltage while bike running These three numbers will give you good insight into condition of battery. |
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June 16th, 2020, 10:54 AM | #24 |
Rev Limiter
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Did you confirm that the "collar" is in place in both carbs? (Post 19)
What you've described can be explained by the lack of one or both of those pieces. It's not uncommon for them to fall out and not be installed during overhaul. |
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June 17th, 2020, 10:45 AM | #25 |
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Well the battery is pretty new, but the issue was still there even after it was replaced. Also the collars are in place. Also even with the car running and the cables in place the issue still exists. With the cables connected and the car running shouldn't the bike be running off of the car's battery as its a complete circuit.
I can replace the battery, but by any chance do yall see any issue with the fuel flow statistics that I posted below? |
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June 17th, 2020, 02:00 PM | #26 |
Rev Limiter
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I'd check the battery voltage. It should be over 12.7V before cranking and 10V during cranking.
If it isn't you can try charging, then focus on the cranking voltage. If that drops way off the battery is junk. You shouldn't need to jump with a car if it holds the proper voltage during the tests. Not sure about the petcock flow numbers, but if it flows strong I would think it's fine. |
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June 18th, 2020, 05:36 PM | #27 |
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Have you rebuilt the petcock yet? Unless I misunderstood your flow post, it isn't flowing well when connected to the carbs. One kit has all that you need.
K&L SUPPLY now makes a complete kit for 88-07 models, according to their own 2016 catalog, Part # 18-2702.
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