September 8th, 2020, 05:48 PM | #1 |
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Temperature sensitive idle?
Hey all
I have an 05 and 06 and both bikes are giving me trouble. All carbs cleaned, valves adjusted, idle mixture screws adjusted after warmed up. Fresh oil change and newer spark plugs for both bikes. My wife and I can fire up both bikes and they idle damn near perfectly at 1500rpm. By the time we get to the highway (3-4 miles and a couple of stop signs) both bikes almost simultaneously are dying without some throttle. A quick idle adjustment by each of us (thankfully it’s easy to reach) and it’s fine. As the bikes get warmer it needs to be raised more. Once they are parked and cooled down, a restart requires a re-adjustment of the idle or they will be reving at over 5000rpm at idle. Any help would be great. Do we need to adjust throttle free play maybe? |
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September 9th, 2020, 06:06 AM | #2 | |
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What is the air temp? How old is the gas? If they idle at 1500 when cold without choke there is a problem. I would re-check the idle mixture settings. Do you know how many turns-out they are now? Have you synced the carbs lately? Sounds like they are overall running way too rich or the gas is old/bad. Have you cleaned and oiled the air filters lately? Too much oil can choke the airflow and make it run way rich. Have the carbs been worked on lately? |
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September 9th, 2020, 02:59 PM | #3 |
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Yes both will idle cold without choke yes. As much as they are acting the same, they are adjusted to both the same specs as well.
It is steady 15-25 deg C here (70*F) From my calculations they are 2-2.5 turns out at the moment. That was where I intended to set them after being warmed up and idling using the 90* adjustment screw driver. They have not been synced lately, but were completely soaked, cleaned, and rebuilt 3 times over (to make sure they will perfectly clean) roughly 250 miles ago. Fuel is fresh. Air filters haven’t been cleaned or oiled lately, I will do that tomorrow. I did suspect that they were running rich. Plugs are a little black vs tan. After an idle mixture adjustment and air filter cleaning, is there another way to lean these out? Spacer under the needle? Obviously re jetting is an option but I can’t see how that should be required if exhaust and intake is stock. Thanks so much for the help. |
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September 9th, 2020, 05:03 PM | #4 | |
Rev Limiter
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Remove the air filter and go for a quick spin. It should run better if it is significantly rich. Spacers/washers under the needles will make the mixture richer. I'm thinking something in the carbs are not right. Either the Jet Needle is not in place or the enrichener is not closing. But it's odd that they both do the same thing at the same time. Oil the air filters sparingly. I prefer a spray air filter oil (1 light/medium coat only) instead of saturating and squeezing. Stock Main Jet tends to be rich, but not that rich. Pilot jets are fine, and idle mixtre screws are usually in the 2 to 2.5 turns out range. The midrange (Needle Jet and Jet Needle) tend to be on the lean side, and adding a washer or 2 usually helps - but I wouldn't do that until it's running normally. |
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September 9th, 2020, 05:44 PM | #5 |
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They do run so similar. It’s honestly hard to say which one might be better.
When I start them with choke, the idle is even higher. Off idle both bikes run great and have the same amount of smooth power. Now that you are suggesting a rich condition, I guess they would be a bit “stinky” for the rider who is second in line. I had originally just chocked that up to riding behind a 15 year old carbureted twin. I pulled the air filter from the 06 and washed it tonight. I rechecked the idle mixture screws by lightly bottoming them out, and then backing them off 2.5 turns. Tomorrow I’ll go for a ride without the filter and see if there is any improvement. If so that does prove the suspicion of a rich condition; if so what would be the next course or action? Disassemble and inspection? I think I’m going to work on one at a time, if there is improvement on the first one at least I’ll have a baseline to work with. Thank you so so much for your help. I really appreciate it. |
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September 9th, 2020, 08:27 PM | #6 |
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What is your gas mileage? If it's significantly rich I'd expect poor fuel economy.
When riding behind my 250 I don't smell anything at all. |
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September 9th, 2020, 09:11 PM | #7 |
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During carb-cleaning, did you make note of pilot jet sizes? Are they stock?
Without disassembly, perhaps experiment with leaning out mixture. Reduce mixture-screws by 1/2 turn and do test rides starting with cold engines. Any change in warmed up behavior? Repeat again with 1/2 less on mixture screws. Repeat to point where you must use choke to start bike. How is warmed-up behavior then? There was recent bike that would start with no choke and mixture screws turned all way in!! Turned out previous owner had drilled out jets! Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 10th, 2020 at 07:52 AM. |
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September 10th, 2020, 03:07 AM | #8 | |
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Two nights ago we went for a ride that had a lot more high speed riding (less stop and go). Based on the mileage we had gone, we pulled in for fuel to top off close to home expecting to be almost near empty/reserve. We could only fit 1 gal in the tank. Would it be possible that is it only super rich on the low end/idle and lean/stoich at mid to high rpm? Last futzed with by Onekallo; September 10th, 2020 at 03:17 AM. Reason: New information |
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September 10th, 2020, 03:10 AM | #9 | |
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No sadly I did not make a note of the jet sizes. That’s a great idea. I’ll give that a shot today for sure. Based on both of your replies and information so far these bikes are definitely super rich and using way too much fuel. Thanks again so much for the help so far. Looking forward to making some progress. |
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September 10th, 2020, 07:03 AM | #10 |
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So I have the 05 here with my at the shop/work.
It’s been sitting for about an 2 hours and cooled off. I put the mixture screws at 1.5 turns out and it was almost instantly better. Needed some choke to start, would idle lower if choke turned off. Going for a test ride at lunch and will re adjust again before the ride home if needed |
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September 10th, 2020, 07:54 AM | #11 |
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As reference point, my commute to SF is roughly 35-miles. I get 230-260 miles between fill-ups on tank from my ‘02.
I start on full choke, then turn it off completely when I’m on hwy about 3-blocks away. |
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September 10th, 2020, 09:22 AM | #12 | |
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With the small adjustment I made earlier it did make it better, but still did not require choke to start. I have the mixture screws 1/4 turn out from seated right now. Going to let it cool and try again around 2 o’clock. Is it fair to say that if it is completely cool, and at 1/4 turn out (or less) and it still doesn’t require choke to start; then there is clearly an issue beyond what can be accommodated by the mixture screws (ie needle wrong position - idle jet damaged/too big)? |
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September 10th, 2020, 10:53 AM | #13 |
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Yes, getting 1/2 of typical mileage is sure sign you're dumping too much petrol into engine. If you're already at less than stock adjustment on mixture-screws and it still appears to be too rich, it would indicate something beyond external adjustments.
So most likely there's something non-stock inside carbs themselves. Non-stock jet sizes, perhaps even non-stock needles and/or heights. This is most likely issue since most common issues are in opposite direction with clogged jets & circuits causing lean mixtures. Don't assume printed number on jets is actually what's being used. You'll want to measure jet-sizes by inserting soft-copper wire of increasing size until you find one that's snug. Then measure wire with micrometer/calipers. |
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September 10th, 2020, 11:02 AM | #14 | |
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Would a "stock jet kit" be the way to go if they are indeed oversized? Again, I cannot stress enough how thankful I am to you all for all of your patience, understanding, and support. |
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September 10th, 2020, 12:08 PM | #15 |
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For a reference, I get around 27km to a litre on my ZZR riding outside of the city (80km zones) And around 25km to a litre in the city (50-60km zones). I refill every 300-320km and I am not close to the reserve. I usually put around 11-12 lites to the top at that milage. My tank might be different from 250r though.
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September 10th, 2020, 03:17 PM | #16 | |
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September 10th, 2020, 03:21 PM | #17 |
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So we just got back from a little ride.
Both bikes turned 1/4-1:8 off of seated. They will still start without the choke but would idle really low. No choke I adjusted the idle to 2000 and off we went. After a km or two the rpms dropped below 1000 and needed some throttle to stay running. I adjusted my idle back up more to 2000, and by the next stop sign it was revving high 4-5k again. Adjusted back down and again, would die out if you didn’t give it a touch of throttle. After a few more miles same thing. Idle adjustment almost MORE sensitive than before. Decided to turn around and head home. Will try a new setting in the morning before heading to work on the 05 |
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September 10th, 2020, 05:22 PM | #18 |
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Did you check the jet needle to see if anyone has placed shims under ? I was experimenting with shims and put them in in winter then when started riding I started noticing rich running symptoms after about 100km and my milage was poor: 18-20km to a litre. I removed them and it started running much better and the milage improved.
Apparently shimming is a very popular mod on 250r and many people do it and see improvements. Our zzrs are jetted differently and it looks like shimming make the engine running much worse. |
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September 10th, 2020, 05:52 PM | #19 |
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Also, before troubleshooting more complex carb issues did you service the enricher/choke “management system” aka cable and lever? May be they are sticky. Mine were in a poor state. I completely disassembled the lever housing cleaned it up and lubed the area where the lever slides with a bit of silicon grease. Sprayed cable lube into the cable housing using the cable lubrication contraption which cleaned the staff out and lubricated it. I have also removed and lubricated the enricher slide. Then checked the cable tention and slack. Our ZZRs I believe have the cable length adjustment built intk the canle housing. I think its located under the tank. Just make sure your cable opens and closes the enricher valves properly. After I did mine it works way better, I can adjust almost in 1000 rpm increments when its cold.
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September 10th, 2020, 09:54 PM | #20 | |
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Choke-cable on my EX250J isn't adjustable. There's about 3-5mm of initial lever-pull that doesn't move choke-lever on carbs. Maximum lever-pull is determined by max choke throw on carb. Reducing choke has carb reach stop just before lever hits end of travel. Might want to visually check your choke movement at carb to verify its movement matches lever without excessive play on either end. Having mixture-screws close to fully closed for normal start behavior would definitely indicate too-large of pilot jets. However if it behaves like stock with them screwed in, that might balance things. Next would be seeing how gas-mileage changes. Cruising is combination of pilot and needles/main-jets. So there should be improvement right away. My '08 EX250J new-gen has 17-ltr tank. ZZR250 and EX250F pre-gens have 18-ltr tank. So I'm getting about 25-28 km/ltr with 15-ltr fill-ups.. |
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September 11th, 2020, 03:16 AM | #21 | |
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Can’t remember where it was set. Let’s say I give it full choke this morning and it fires up but revs at 5k; is that normal? Then I would leave idle setting as is and as it warms up remove choke? Sorry I am excited you believe it is almost close, but want to make sure I can get it back there. Thanks so much. Side bar, choke is smooth and does come on and off. Cables move freely and so does actual valve from a quick inspection last night. |
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September 11th, 2020, 04:19 AM | #22 | |
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September 11th, 2020, 04:51 AM | #23 | |
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Started full choke, got it to rev at 5k full choke, went to about half-3/4 and then it idle nicely at 3k +/-. Rode fine no problem. My commute is quite short (5 km and its only 10*C this morning) so the temp gauge did not move at all. Just for S's and G's I backed off the choke as I pulled in the driveway, and the bike almost died right out. Hoping to go for a bit longer ride at lunch with the same starting procedure in order to warm it up a bit more. This is going to be such a stupid question (sorry my head it so twisted trying to figure this all out) but does it make sense for the revs to drop as the bike warms up and the choke is removed? If I am increasing the idle with more choke, as it warms up should the bike not idle higher, and then less choke would even it out again? Thank you all so much again I truly appreciate all of the help and guidance, I honestly do. |
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September 11th, 2020, 07:09 AM | #24 | |
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September 14th, 2020, 04:30 AM | #25 | |
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In a few weeks or so I will be tearing them back apart again and inspecting the Jets, needles, enrichener movement etc. With the idle mixture screws completely closed it still ran rich and not as you are all describing it should. I appreciate all of your help thus far, and will continue to update the thread as I progress. Thank you again. |
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September 14th, 2020, 06:02 AM | #26 | |
Rev Limiter
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September 14th, 2020, 06:30 AM | #27 |
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Clearly. I will order some new stock jets for both bikes so that one they are torn down I can at least have them to compare, and likely replace. It sounds as though the main isn't an issue, but for the cost of what they are; I will likely replace them at the same time.
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September 14th, 2020, 09:34 AM | #28 |
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"With the idle mixture screws completely closed it still ran rich and not as you are all describing it should".
With idle screws closed it should not run at all. Along with some of your other symptoms ...a clear indication of unmetered fuel bypassing normal circuits and entering the venturi. If jets are not monster oversized, I'd be willing to submit a float valve control issue exists. Fuel levels are begging to be checked via "clear tube" method. (they can be out of spec and still not visibly leak all over the floor, for example ) Didn't I read on the internet "carbs are easy"? Right, sure they are. Precision little boogers....lotta various stuff goin' on inside there.
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September 14th, 2020, 12:12 PM | #29 | |
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September 14th, 2020, 02:09 PM | #30 |
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Here is the spec, just in case.
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September 14th, 2020, 09:29 PM | #31 | |
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All over the place because you keep on adjusting idle-screw. Leave that alone and learn to use choke lever. 1. Cold start - 3/4 to full choke to start. If idle too slow, increase choke. If idle too fast, decrease choke. No change in idle-speed adjuster necessary. 2. Once started, adjust choke-lever for 3-4k RPM. If idle too fast, decrease choke. If idle too slow, increase choke. No adjustments to idle-speed necessary. Start your ride 3. In 5-10 min, if you stop, reduce choke again to lower idle-speed to 2-3k RPMs. If idle too high, decrease choke. If idle too slow, increase choke. No adjustment necessary on idle-speed screw. 4. 10-15 min, turn choke completely off after bike’s warmed up. That’s it! Never ever need to adjust idle-speed knob. It’s all done conveniently and quickly with choke lever. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 16th, 2020 at 05:22 PM. |
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September 15th, 2020, 04:56 AM | #32 | |
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September 15th, 2020, 04:58 AM | #33 | |
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Thank you |
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September 15th, 2020, 05:04 AM | #34 | |
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I will try this method on the way home. Since I have been adjusting the idle-speed knob excessively, I am not sure where it currently is. Is there a base setting for that, or is it completely irrelevant? Example; is the factory setting a certain number of turns off bottomed out, or does your method apply no matter the current position of the idle-speed knob Please don't take this as me not trusting or believeing in your method, I just want to make sure I am following it as closely as possible to achieve the proper results. Thank you again to everyone for all of the assistance. Once again, truly appreciated. |
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September 15th, 2020, 05:55 AM | #35 | |
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September 15th, 2020, 06:07 AM | #36 | |
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September 15th, 2020, 06:36 AM | #37 |
Rev Limiter
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If you are trying to make it ride-able now, I would start by getting the idle mixture screws set as good as possible.
To do that, warm the engine fully and let it idle. Adjust the screws one at a time to get the highest idle speed. Then adjust the idle speed to 1300 +/-. I typically go about 1/8-turn richer after reaching highest speed, which helps smooth the transition off-idle. For now, just get the highest speed. That's assuming the carbs are synced properly. If they were way off you may not be able to get a proper idle. |
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September 16th, 2020, 05:02 PM | #38 | ||
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Quote:
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- mixture-screws for highest idle-speed + 1/8 turn - idle-speed set to 1300rpms - leave both those alone permanently and use choke for cold-starts. Its range is greater than all others. |
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September 17th, 2020, 05:10 AM | #39 | |
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I verify Pilot and Main jet sizing (replace as needed) Set the fuel / float level using the clear tube method on the bench. (currently set to 17mm, but now after reading/watching the clear tube method I understand the importance of the clear tube method, and that the spec is +/- 2mm) Start the bike and warm it up by riding for 10-15 minutes. Adjust mixture screws so that they are at the highest idle (no throttle input) speed achievable (even if that is 5-6k?) Turn mixture screws 1/8 turn more rich. Adjust idle to 1300 rpm Shut off bike, start in the morning using choke and only choke and pretend the idle adjustment is dead to me and never look at it again. Correct? I once again sincere;y apologies for all of the questions, but also am so thankful for all of your patience and support. I cannot express that enough |
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September 17th, 2020, 05:35 AM | #40 | ||
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That's not really a choke, you know. It's an enricher that adds air and gasoline, which is why the engine speeds up at the same time the mixture gets richer. |
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