June 19th, 2010, 10:05 PM | #41 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: eddie
Location: Lawnguylind
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 300, WeeStrom Posts: A lot.
|
Shavelleva is right about voting getting her off the road today. But, based only on what we read, there is no reason to take her off the road.
Go back and read both press accounts of the event please. The accident happened on May 19 It was classified as a sideswipe meeting...avoidable by either party regardless of who initiated it. Hunter, the LICENSED operator avoided the car by driving off the road. Leidholt the UNLICENSED operator either sideswiped or was sideswiped by the car. HIS injuries kept him in the hospital for about 17 days and he was released. His wife died of internal injuries within hours of the event. There was no evidence of excessive speed nor of drinkin' or drugs. There IS evidence that 2 violations occurred...crossing the center line and operating bike vehicle without a license. The only violation that can be proven to be intentional, then aggrivated is Leidholt;s operating the bike with no license. Look...we all assume that this woman is some kind of menace behind the wheel just because she's old...I can undertand that and agree with it to a small extent because older drivers tend to drive real slow.. But be just as honest about the biker...this guy didn't just get on the bike for the first time, unlicensed, that night. He may have been riding around for years with no paper and tell the truth, an 80's HD is far from a vehicle suited to evasive maneuvers. this is for sure...if he had obeyed the law that night...there would have been no fatality. If this event happened in NY...Leidholt would be in jail ( thank god NY lawyers don't live out west) We had a guy, about 3 weeks ago...riding too fast ( count 1) running from the cops ( count 2) crashed the bike and his wife died ( count 3) He's on trial for some variance of murder or homicide. It, both of them, were accidents |
|
June 19th, 2010, 10:17 PM | #42 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Lucas
Location: Pompton Lakes, NJ
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): '09 Blue 250R Posts: 446
|
What the hell is wrong with everyone here? The woman is 92 years old and her time is up. Of course her actions ruined the lives of the victims, but her actions were not intentional, and she has to live her last remaining days knowing that she caused this. Normally i'd be one to flame this broad and condem her to death, but what good will it do to convict a 92 year old woman who is counting her last days? She isn't a criminal, she made a mistake and ruined a newly wed's lives. How do you think that makes her feel? No criminal conviction could feel worse than her own.
__________________________________________________
2 thumbs up |
|
June 20th, 2010, 08:03 AM | #43 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
Bill -
IMO it doesn't matter what happens to the woman at this point from a criminal perspective. For all the points you and others have raised, I agree. I think the more relevant debate is what happened (i.e. what failed) that allowed this tragedy to happen. She shouldn't have been on the road, she should have immediately had her license pulled (rather than a $20 ticket), and her estate should be used to compensate the family whose lives she ruined.
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
June 20th, 2010, 08:18 AM | #44 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Lucas
Location: Pompton Lakes, NJ
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): '09 Blue 250R Posts: 446
|
i may have come off a little rude last night. my apologies. but yea alex i agree with you and travis that the real problem here is how she even had a licence, and that it should be pulled immediately. criminal convictions would be pointless. i also agree about her estate being used to compensate the family members. im also upset to see that one of the riders was unlicensed. perhaps if he had been, the situation would be less grim.
__________________________________________________
2 thumbs up |
|
June 20th, 2010, 08:44 AM | #45 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Whodat
Location: Ware Is.,MA
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14
|
I wonder if she was texting?
__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough! |
|
June 20th, 2010, 08:58 AM | #46 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: eddie
Location: Lawnguylind
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 300, WeeStrom Posts: A lot.
|
If she was texting, what would her last message have been ?
**Oops** |
|
June 20th, 2010, 11:20 AM | #47 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Whodat
Location: Ware Is.,MA
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14
|
Last message to Mable, " won twice today, once at the casino, then not getting thrown in jail. It's been a lucky day".
__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough! |
|
June 20th, 2010, 10:07 PM | #48 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Greg
Location: Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 ZX6R 636 Posts: A lot.
|
We were just talking about my grandmother getting stopped for speeding last week. She is 90 and was going 47 in a 25 (downhill section of road) where many get stopped. She also had no seat belt on (a violation in RI). She hadn't been stopped in decades. The officer spoke with her, and let her go with no infractions. She said he was nice.
At the moment I think she is safe on the roads, but at her age you really have to monitor it closely. |
|
June 21st, 2010, 08:16 AM | #49 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Shari
Location: Minnesota
Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 ninja 250 Posts: 86
|
About 2 yrs ago, my father in law was riding his bicycle on a busy road. He had come up to an "on ramp" of sorts where a woman was trying to merge onto the road my FIN was on. (Please note that there is a clear view of the traffic of the road you are merging onto from the on ramp). It is not clear as to whether the woman did not see him(?) or thought that she had the right of way, or even that she could beat him. Either way, she hit him, he slipped into a coma by the time he reached the hospital and died.
The woman was not charged. She did not loose her DL. There is nothing on her driving record as a result. The only thing that changed for her is that I hope her insurance went up. Now, I am not out for blood. While I DO NOT feel that this was an "accident", I don't feel she needs jail time. I think she should have lost her DL for at least a year and had this on her record. I do hope that she thinks about this every day of her life. Over time, she may be able to convince herself that is was just an accident and be able to forget. But we can't. Driving is not a right! I don't think you should get your DL just because you turn 16 and I don't think you should keep it just because you have been driving since the dawn of time. In my situation and that of the 92 y/o woman things should have been done differently. Both in the events that lead up to the accident and those that took place afterward. I also think that in order to get your DL you need to pass a class on how to drive with motorcycles/bicycles. Car drivers need to be taught to look for us and how to SEE us. I do feel strongly that age is a factor in driving. Just as kids are too young, you can be too old!
__________________________________________________
I'm a vet, too |
|
June 21st, 2010, 08:20 AM | #50 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Whodat
Location: Ware Is.,MA
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14
|
Ability is another factor. Some people don't have it (mentally or physically). There are people who are just too stupid also (think Hollywood).
__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough! |
|
June 21st, 2010, 11:49 AM | #51 |
oh yes it is!
Name: :D
Location: Missouri
Join Date: Jun 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250R SE - SOLD 2004 CBR600RR Candy Blue (sportech wind Screen / OEM Sliders) Posts: 56
|
ok my friends Civic Mugen was totalled because it was hit by an elderly woman... what's her excuse??? "i though he was turning the otherway"... now she reads my friends mind...
92YO should not be driving at all most of these people are under medications/drugs. i know that because i work in a nursing home facility. |
|
June 21st, 2010, 12:33 PM | #52 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
Just one correction to the post I quoted: I believe the HD bike that Leidholt was riding was a 2006 model. The other guy had the 80s Harley. |
|
|
June 21st, 2010, 12:37 PM | #53 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
|
|
|
June 21st, 2010, 12:49 PM | #54 | |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
Quote:
There's no evidence that that was the case in this situation, but it very well may be the case in many other situations.
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
|
June 21st, 2010, 01:04 PM | #55 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Greg
Location: Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 ZX6R 636 Posts: A lot.
|
Former governor of RI was forever getting into traffic incidents such as hitting pedestrians in crosswalks or parked cars, passing stopped school busses and yelling at the other parties. Under advice of friends and family (and newspaper coverage) he surrendered his license. BTW he was an avid biker and pilot at one point.
http://www.projo.com/news/content/su...3.37886ab.html |
|
June 21st, 2010, 03:10 PM | #56 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Frugal
Location: Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW)
Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): Several Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
I'd love to be a fly on that courtroom wall... |
|
|
June 21st, 2010, 03:16 PM | #57 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
|
|
|
June 21st, 2010, 03:26 PM | #58 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Michael
Location: BG, KY
Join Date: Jun 2010 Motorcycle(s): Bodyless Ninja, 1986 Yamaha Towny, 1988 Honda Spree Posts: 40
|
Quote:
|
|
|
June 21st, 2010, 04:00 PM | #59 |
Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.
|
Families of the elderly (or anyone driving for that matter) have a moral obligation to get them off the streets if the families have determined they are a hazard. It is indeed their moral responsibility to help preserve the safety of other motorists if they feel their loved ones prove to be a menace on the roads.
The AARP recognizes the difficult task in getting senior citizens to surrender their licenses when it's time and helps it's members families with suggestions on how to accomplish this. This is a big problem and is difficult to deal with for many families, mine included. I'm not saying this is the case here, but many of you view this as an age problem by assumption. it's sad to see a fellow cyclist lose his life in this, but making assumptions based on race, sex, age, religion, etc. is the very definition of bigotry. bigotry n. The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance. After saying all of this, it does sound she should have been dealt with more fairly and received a harsher citation/reprimand/sentence. Does she possibly have connections higher up? Someones grandmother, perhaps? |
|
June 22nd, 2010, 07:50 AM | #60 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Shari
Location: Minnesota
Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 ninja 250 Posts: 86
|
[QUOTE=eddiekay;181505]Shavelleva is right about voting getting her off the road today. But, based only on what we read, there is no reason to take her off the road.
Go back and read both press accounts of the event please. The accident happened on May 19 It was classified as a sideswipe meeting...avoidable by either party regardless of who initiated it. Hunter, the LICENSED operator avoided the car by driving off the road. Leidholt the UNLICENSED operator either sideswiped or was sideswiped by the car. Eddie, Where did you read that HUNTER avoided the car? In the Grand Forks release it states that.. "According to the patrol, the Oldsmobile struck a 1980 Harley-Davidson driven by Jason Hunter, 33, then continued south and hit a 2006 Harley-Davidson, carrying driver James Leidholt, 37, and his passenger, Sheri"...? While I agree that LEIDHOLT did not have a license, why do you question that he may have sideswiped her? This indicates to me that she hit one rider and did not have the natural instinct to get back in her lane before she hit the second. OR that she was too far over to recover to her lane. Quote:
What I mean is that your comment says to me that if the driver was 16, you would expect lesser driving skills. You would hold the parents accountable. However, do you assume that extreme age also indicates extreme driving ability? Would you step in if your mother killed 2 people?
__________________________________________________
I'm a vet, too |
|
|
June 22nd, 2010, 08:50 AM | #61 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Matthew
Location: Toronto
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2015 V-Star 950 Tourer (Deep Blue) Posts: 570
|
The thing bothering me here, her insurance probably costs her next to nothing, yet she's clearly one of the more dangerous ones out there.
|
|
June 22nd, 2010, 10:43 AM | #62 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Considering she was involved in an accident which took someone's life, I really doubt she will be able to get a good insurance rate. If you're talking about her insurance costs prior to the accident, we have no idea if she was "clearly" dangerous on the road.
|
|
June 22nd, 2010, 10:56 AM | #63 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
And just as age does not dictate one's ability to make correct driving decisions, it also does not dictate one's ability to drive. I agree, that if her family knew she was a poor driver, they should have done what they could to keep her off the road. But what we don't know is if her family had any evidence to suggest she was a bad driver. Or if her family had tried and failed to get her off the street. I think before anyone can start pointing fingers at the family, they need a lot more information. Otherwise, we could be pointing our finger at the Leidholt family, holding them responsible for allowing James to operate a motorcycle that he was clearly not qualified to operate. |
|
|
June 22nd, 2010, 11:16 AM | #64 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Z
Location: Long Island, NY
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R (sold) Posts: 356
|
I agree that beyond 65, coordination and driving skills tests should be performed more often. The fact is, however that older drivers are not nearly as dangerous as those in the 16-24 bracket. Not even half as dangerous...
|
|
June 22nd, 2010, 11:27 AM | #65 |
Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.
|
I agree with this 100% and have always felt there should be a driving skills test given to ALL drivers, no matter their age, when their license renewal comes up.
|
|
June 22nd, 2010, 04:45 PM | #66 |
CPT Falcon
Name: J.Emmett Turner
Location: Newnan, GA
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 CP Blue EX250J, '97 unpainted EX250F, 2nd '97 unpainted EX250F (no engine), '07 black EX250F Posts: A lot.
|
I just wonder: Who paid more for their ticket?!
|
|
June 28th, 2010, 08:38 PM | #67 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Steve
Location: Kansas city
Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): 94 Ex250 Posts: 101
|
Quote:
That is exactly what they need here! Think about it for a second. How many deaths are there a year from Flying? Those guys go through one hell of a medical exam. Yet you just need to take ONE driving test here and you are good for life??? I am pushing the Bull $H!T button! |
|
|
June 28th, 2010, 09:08 PM | #68 |
So slow I'm first!
Name: Sunny
Location: San Jose, CA
Join Date: Oct 2008 Motorcycle(s): 06 Kawasaki Ninja EX250 Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 10
|
I would have to say that if I felt any of the older people I cared about in my life did not show an aptitude for driving in a safe way I would do EVERYTHING in my power to stop them. Why? If not for the safety of others... for the safety of them.
My Grandmother was 89 years old. Quick as a wick, had the reflexes of a cat.. She square danced, she played her bingo, traveled all over the place, she loved to camp, and all other manner of things. That didn't stop the 20 something year old, drunk mind you, from taking her out her. Killing her while he survived. I don't favor one age or another. I believe my Grandmother would still have been an excellent driver at 92 or 105 but I won't ever know that... With that in mind I think it should be applied to EVERYONE. Every five-eight years go and take the test again. And for the record, at least in CA, any time you add a new class to your license you have to take the written test for ALL classes of your license. I believe it is the same in most state. It is not the physical driving test but it is a test. I wish those who lost their loved ones the best in coping with this loss. Married four days, they were propbably on their honeymoon which makes it even more tradgic. I do have to wonder though.. If she wasn't under the influence of anything (Drugs/Alcohol) and she sideswiped these bikes... Why did she cross the center line? Did she fall asleep? I guess we won't know but, I believe her driving skills should be tested and determined if she should still have a license, as it should for anyone in this situation where a life had been taken... If anything else to assure that the accident won't happen again.
__________________________________________________
Learn from the mistakes of others, you cannot make them all yourself. Save yourself the trouble and Learn. |
|
June 29th, 2010, 06:51 AM | #69 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
My father is 89 years old and still drives. He has great vision and is still a good driver. He lives in a different state than I do, but when I visit him once a year, I do make him take me somewhere to specifically judge his abilities. So as far as I can tell, he is fine when it comes to driving. The thing is, no matter how good of a driver you are, you can get distracted for various reasons which can lead to someone crossing the center line. Most of the time, this probably won't lead to an accident. But every now and then, it could. No matter how old you are, or how well you drive. Unfortunately, when someone over a certain age is involved, the assumption will automatically be that this person should not have been driving. So are we saying that everyone who has ever strayed over the center line and sideswiped an oncoming vehicle should not be driving? Even if they were a perfect driver before, is their family still to blame for allowing this person to drive? If someone, anyone, is a dangerous driver, then I do think the family should do whatever they can to take them off the road. But I do think the States should come up with a better way of ensuring that people retain the skills needed to drive. So I agree with mandatory testing on a regular basis. But then, could someone pass the test and still be a bad driver? |
|
|
June 29th, 2010, 08:27 AM | #70 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Pat
Location: Barrie, Ontario
Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 SE Posts: 338
|
Quote:
I like this vision of the future
__________________________________________________
2013 CRF250L 1985 GL1200 Interstate |
|
|
June 29th, 2010, 10:19 AM | #71 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Frugal
Location: Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW)
Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): Several Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
I still believe it's highly probable that the 92 year old woman's reason for crossing the centerline was a loss of control of her vehicle due to age-related inattentiveness or loss of focus. I also believe that the $20 fine sends a message to some that the financial consequences of inattentive driving aren't really all that bad. |
|
|
June 29th, 2010, 11:13 AM | #72 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Tin
Location: NJ
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 black 250r (sold); '09 black zx6r Posts: 903
|
people this old shouldn't be on the road in the first place.
they should be home reading to their grand-grand children. |
|
June 29th, 2010, 12:24 PM | #73 | |
motorcycle rider
Name: Bruce
Location: Victoria, BC
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '14 Yamaha V-Star 650 Custom (silver) Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
A basic written test or skills test every few years for all drivers doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me. Pilots have to get exams and constant training to keep their licences; why should car drivers be any different?
__________________________________________________
'14 Yamaha V-Star 650 Custom (silver) |
|
|
June 29th, 2010, 02:46 PM | #74 | ||
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
Quote:
While you may be correct (I don't know), I find myself trusting the police in this case. |
||
|
June 29th, 2010, 02:48 PM | #75 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
|
|
|
June 29th, 2010, 03:35 PM | #76 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Frugal
Location: Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW)
Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): Several Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
It is certain that the car crossed the centerline. It is certain that there was no mechanical defect to cause that. It is certain that she didn't deliberately cross the centerline. Therefor, without a doubt, she was not in control of the car at that moment. It's one of those on or off things, there's not really any gray in between. Kind of like being sorta pregnant, you either are, or aren't. |
|
|
June 29th, 2010, 06:24 PM | #77 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
I'll also point out that she did not get into a head on collision. The accident as I understand it was a side swipe. And when you say it is certain that the "car crossed the centerline" we're talking about the tires of the car and not the entire car. |
|
|
June 29th, 2010, 08:23 PM | #78 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
I don't know why one would try to equivocate or rationalize what happened as anything other than a complete failure of the driver and anyone close to her who knew this was a reasonable possibility. Does it matter if the whole car was entirely over the center line or only a part? Does it matter if it was a sideswipe or a head-on collision? The woman killed two motorcyclists by her own inability to control a vehicle. What else is there to say?
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
June 30th, 2010, 06:16 AM | #79 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Frugal
Location: Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW)
Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): Several Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
Oh, and unless she was driving a formula one or Indy race car with exposed wheels, the car's body was across the centerline along with the tires. And in any case, that distinction is irrelevant because all parts of the car are considered "the car" when it comes to causing an accident. |
|
|
July 2nd, 2010, 01:09 PM | #80 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja zx6r Posts: 609
|
Quote:
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[motorcycle.com] - Odds Are This Woman Is Faster Than You + Video | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | February 3rd, 2015 05:00 PM |
[topix.net] - Bangalore Woman Becomes First Woman Owner of Harley Davidson Bike in In | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | July 15th, 2011 02:40 AM |
Woman stops car to allow ducks to cross, kills father and daughter on a motorcycle | Alex | General Motorcycling Discussion | 36 | July 12th, 2010 02:52 PM |
[topix.net] - Porterfield Fastest Woman on a Motorcycle | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | March 23rd, 2010 01:50 PM |
[topix.net] - Woman kills biker husband with Corvette | 1st5ive.com | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | January 21st, 2009 06:02 PM |
|
|