Koso gauge and gear indicator confusion

[randomwalk101]

I wanted to put a gear indicator in the 08 ninja 250 (and not the Koso gauge...at least not now). I emailed Koso inquiring about it and getting conflicting information (per emails below). Anyone has any idea what they're talking about?

Original email:

Subject: Koso gear indicator


Hi,
I have a 2009 ninja 250R and I would like to install a gear indicator onto the bike. I believe I need the active speed sensor, magnets, bracket for the speed sensor and the gear indicator itself. Will you help me with the parts number for these items and the approximate cost. Thank you.

Koso reply #1:

Subject: Re: Koso gear indicator

Hello

Thanks for your interest in our product. Unfortunately, the gear indicator can't work on your motorcycle. The only way you could make it work would be to replace the complete dash with one of our gauge such as the RX-2 or RX-2N. Of course, this would raise the price since those gauges retail for about 399$ usd

Best regards
Team Koso

My follow up clarification:

Subject: Re: Koso gear indicator


Pascal,

Can you explain to me why the gear indicator (GI) will not work by itself (that is without the Koso gauge)?
My understanding is that the ninja 250 uses the cable speedo which doesn't provide the electrical speed pulse that the GI needs. However, that's where the active speed sensor comes in. The speed sensor generate electrical speed pulse from the spinning magnet in the wheel sending this signal to the GI (or to the Koso gauge to display speed). The bike provide tach (RPM) signal stock which is use by the gauge (and so does the GI). Neutral light is also provide by the bike stock..only two wires left is ground (-) and power (+). I'm a little puzzled why it "won't" work...technically it doesn't make sense. I don't see how the Koso gauge provide any "other" information that will aid in the working of the GI.

Koso clarification:

On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Koso Pascal <plafrance@kosonorthamerica.com> wrote:


The gear indicator does not use the same signal as the one provid from the speed sensor. The GI is make to take the pulsation signal from the gauge, not from a sensor. We will make a conversion kit in the futur to solve this matter. Unfortunately it won't be in the near futur.

Regards

My lastest inquiry:

Subject: Re: Koso gear indicator


Pascal


Which wire from the Koso gauge is the speed signal OUTPUT for the Koso gear indicator? I only see one speed signal INPUT for the Koso gauge from the speed sensor. So how does the gear indicator gets it's speed signal from the koso gauge?

Koso's response:

Hello Sir.

The KOSO gauge don<t have an Output signal. You take the signal from the sensor wire that bring the signal to the gauge (parallel) see attachment.

Regards,
Team Koso NorthAmerica

[randomwalk101]

My point is after all that...the speed signal for both gear indicator and the gauge is from the speed sensor..yet they said the GI doesn't get the speed sign from the speed sensor is my confusion.

[kkim]

nothing to do with your post, but what is it w/ wanting a gear indicator? if you can count to 6, you already have one.

people that have standard shift cars don't cry for a gear indicator in their cars, so why is it that we need one on bikes?

[want1sobad]

john,

when i first posted about the rx2/gear indicator kit - everyone started raising questions as to whether or not it would work on our carbed bikes. in discussing this concern with paul, he informed me it will work if and only if you replace the stock gauges with the koso gauges. something about digital vs analog.

you may want to email him for additional insight.....

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by kkim

nothing to do with your post, but what is it w/ wanting a gear indicator? if you can count to 6, you already have one.

people that have standard shift cars don't cry for a gear indicator in their cars, so why is it that we need one on bikes?

It's just a nice thing to have....on the road I usually focus my attention on car & road obstacle rather than the current gear and often find myself searching for the non-existing gear...even although I sometimes knew that I am on 6th...but then I doubted myself and tried to upshift anyways

Also, at the track, it's a nice bonus.

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by want1sobad

john,

when i first posted about the rx2/gear indicator kit - everyone started raising questions as to whether or not it would work on our carbed bikes. in discussing this concern with paul, he informed me it will work if and only if you replace the stock gauges with the koso gauges. something about digital vs analog.

you may want to email him for additional insight.....

Yeah I understood that. Our bike, the speedometer is analog and the Koso gauge & and gear indicator (almost all GI on the market for that mater) uses the digital speedo signal...thus the speed sensor mounted on the front wheel along with the magnet. This gives the digital speed that is picked up by the Koso gauge and the GI.

So as you can see on the highly technical diagram that Koso Team sent me, the signal from the sensor goes up to the Koso gauge and split into the GI. So why would we need the Koso gauge in the first place to get the GI to work?
Basically there are like 5 wires out of the GI.

rpm/tach: pick up signal from bike (stock)
negative: ground to (-) battery or bike's chasis.
positive: (+) battery terminal or ignition ON (this is better so when bike is off, GI will be off).
speed pulse: from speed sensor (split up/shared with Koso gauge)
neutral: from bike (stock)

So basically it seems like it has nothing to do with the Koso gauge. Please enlighten me.

[want1sobad]

trust me, i don't have the technical knowledge/experience to even start.

good luck

[FrugalNinja250]

If they're not using something in the gauge to buffer the signal for the indicator then there's no reason why you can't wire it up like you think. Now, it may be possible that the gauge provides voltage for the sensor that the indicator doesn't, in which case no, the indicator won't work without the gauge. However, if it's just a plain voltage then it may be possible to fab up that end of the deal on your own.

[dubojr1]

Unfortunately you'll have to go by what KOSO tells you. It would be a huge gamble to attempt the project against their information. Maybe you could forward some additional questions to them now. Find out if the the guages power the GI in some fashion... GL!

[randomwalk101]

Prob best way is to use it with the gauge. I think Paul said he's developing the cover with GI instead of voltage meter.

[ThaiNinjaRR]

Hey Guys, ok so this comment came up to me a while ago, "The GI does not work on Carb Bikes"... As far as i am aware This is not True. i contacted The Koso Tech who assured me the GI will work with the Koso meter on both Carb/FI bike Ninjas. The only issue is trying to use the GI on the Carb OEM meter. in this case you would have to buy a special convertor. (i dont have these)

This is What Official Koso Taiwan told me. (Koso is from Taiwan, Not States)

I have sold about 40+ Koso kits over the last 2 months, and at least 5 or so of thoes were GI kits to US riders, and had no complaints... just wish they kept in contact so they could upload a vid of it working for you guys.

I dont personally know the "technical" side, but i have already made arangment for the Koso Tech to fly over end of november to train me and a few other guys so we can be Officially Koso Trained. and i will be making a HD video installation guide that i will send out with order so you can do it yourself..and i will officially be able to asnwer any Technical QA then with any hesitation.

Of course, i am not that much of a DB.... if you got the GI kit, and it did not work i would change the kits for you. i wont leave you in the "lurch"...(is that a word?)..

About the Dash for GI, yes i though i would do this. same as the Voltmeter dash, but replaced with GI. this will be available seperatly to customers who already baught the kits with koso dash. and as a full kit for new customers.

So at the moment i sell 3 Koso kits, and soon will be the 4th. (new GI dash mount)
WAS actually thinking to do a 5th kit, that had everything...GI, VOLT, RX2, Fuel indi. but i think this may be to busy on the dash... lets see...

Oh should mention, Volt meters are Shinto i contacted the Factory thats makes them, and they did cross branding for me

any questions do just ask. USA/CAN order contact Vince, others contact me.
Cheers!

[Ninja North]

Hi Thaininja RR - I was wondering if you sell the Sportisi bezel (i think - the one with voltmeter) in Thailand?
Thank you,

Don

[ThaiNinjaRR]

Originally Posted by Ninja North

Hi Thaininja RR - I was wondering if you sell the Sportisi bezel (i think - the one with voltmeter) in Thailand?
Thank you,

Don

Hi, I do sell/Make the Voltmeter Kit yes.

i sell 3 kits at the moment.

Kit1 - Basic Ninja 250r set
Comes with: RX2, ASB Dash, Sensors, P&P wire kit

Kit2 - Voltmeter Set
Comes with: RX2, Fibre Dash, Sensors, P&P wire Kit

Kit3 - Indicator Set
Comes with: RX2, ABS Dash, Gear indicator, Fuel Indicator, Sensors, P&P wire kit

Please note: these are not Sportsi. Sportsi did not make/Design these.

The Voltmeter are Actually made by Shinto. as you will see in the Photo i have attached.

hope this helps, cheers!

[ThaiNinjaRR]

i should mention... (not nice to but i should lol) Kosonorthamerica are not the Manufactures of these., they are just Distributers like my self, and any other person who gets them Direct from Koso in Bulk.. but of course alot more history and skill (i should hope)

Koso is a Product of Taiwan,

althou that pic they sent was somewhat... eh..

I think the reason your getting conflicting info from the same sauce is cos they dont know. and would rather not say lol or dont have the guy who mailed you does not have the ability to explain it clearly like 1+1=2... shame thou..

But kinda sound like its the same things i have said in my other posts.. without a convertor you cant use these on OEM gauges...

Oh, koso factory informed me the Convertors would be End of the Year. (if thats sticks who knows)

[randomwalk101]

Do you know if Koso gauge will work with other gear indicator or only with Koso gear indicator?
Also, the kit #3, you mentioned "fuel indicator". I thought the basic Koso gauge has the fuel indicator already?

[wayanlam]

could we see a picture of your third kit model, the one with the gear indicator?

i just installed the same like your kit#2, bought it here in Bali. (well, a couple months ago now)

just curious to see what the other one looks like

thanks!

[Ceir]

Originally Posted by kkim

nothing to do with your post, but what is it w/ wanting a gear indicator? if you can count to 6, you already have one.

people that have standard shift cars don't cry for a gear indicator in their cars, so why is it that we need one on bikes?

On a car you can feel what gear you're in by the possition of the shifter and the play of the shifter while in neutral. On a bike the possition and feel is the same no matter what gear you're in. In a car if you don't downshift to help with braking you can just pull the shifter to neutral then put it in whatever gear you need if you haven't came to a complete stop where as on a bike if you do that and you aren't in the gear you think you are you could be in for a bit of a surprise.

[Racer x]

.I may have missed the answer. But the reason the gear indicator will not work is because the stock speedo is cable driver. The GI needs a signal from some sort of electrical speed indicator.The way the gear indicator works is it figures out the speed VS RPM then shows a number .

The gear indicators are nice to have. I have ridden bikes that had them stock .But never missed them on bikes that don't have them .Plus the add on ones are like a black block that sticks on ,I don't like the looks of it all.

[Jerkson]

Originally Posted by ThaiNinjaRR

i should mention... (not nice to but i should lol) Kosonorthamerica are not the Manufactures of these., they are just Distributers like my self, and any other person who gets them Direct from Koso in Bulk.. but of course alot more history and skill (i should hope)

Koso is a Product of Taiwan,

althou that pic they sent was somewhat... eh..

I think the reason your getting conflicting info from the same sauce is cos they dont know. and would rather not say lol or dont have the guy who mailed you does not have the ability to explain it clearly like 1+1=2... shame thou..

But kinda sound like its the same things i have said in my other posts.. without a convertor you cant use these on OEM gauges...

Oh, koso factory informed me the Convertors would be End of the Year. (if thats sticks who knows)

What we need is someone with the full p&p gauge kit to just install the magnetic speed sensor and wire that up with the GI (without the actual koso gauge cluster) to see if it works without the gauge cluster. Paul, I would assume you'd be able to get these parts he requires individually from Koso.

When I buy my full gauge kit & GI in the early spring, I will be the guinea pig.

[Canoas]

I can help it because I went through this recently.



Initially I installed only the RX-2. Two weeks later I decided to finish installing the kit purchased in Shinto and put the GI Koso.

My only question regarding the installation of GI was the yellow wire (speed sensor).

The original cable enters the sensor Koso and transforms the rotation of the cable into electrical pulses. In the sensor there is a connector that goes to the RX-2 (the magnetic cable also uses the same connector). In this connect, as you can see in the picture has three wires.


Needed to find which one sends a 5v. I discovered that two of them emitting signal ranging from 3V - 5V. I did tests with both and the result was the same.

To configure the GI is needed the front wheel is in motion. This is a problem since it is not very practical and the second signal to indicate the gear does not work very well. The indicator does many things wrong especially reducing gears.

My solution was to use a signal that exists in FI Ninjas.



When I connect the yellow wire (speed sensor) GI to this sensor the indicator of the Ninja worked perfectly and without error.

Summarizing. The GI works using the sensor front wheel, but not accurate.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Canoas

I can help it because I went through this recently.

[randomwalk101]

Marcos
You have FI version so you have stock elec speed sensor. Carb bike doesn't. Sounded like you originally used mech cable for speed sensor and didn't set it up that's why your gear is messed up? Why did you use speed sensor and magnet provided?

[Canoas]

John,

In theory the signal to both cables (original and magnetic) are the same. Not tested with the cable magnetic, then I can not say.

I am using the original cable with sensor coupled with the point of cable speed. I thought about changing the magnetic sensors, but that is for the near future.

Perhaps using the magnetic sensor and configured correctly you'll get good results. You need a person in the backseat to help you.

[dubojr1]

So does this mean it is optional to either use the stock cable or the magnet sensor?

[Canoas]

For use with the RX-2, yes.

For use with the GI the original speed cable doesnt work correctly. The magnetic wire just testing to see if it works correctly.

[Racer x]

I stand corrected >I do like the look of that one.

[randomwalk101]

Daddy likes



What is that yellow light on the very far right?

[Canoas]

Fuel warning light!

In FI Ninja there is no fuel gauge. The RX-2 is not able to make the correct measurement of the fuel. The solution adopted by Koso, was to put this warning light reserve fuel, just as there is in the panel's original FI Ninja.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Canoas

Fuel warning light!

In FI Ninja there is no fuel gauge. The RX-2 is not able to make the correct measurement of the fuel. The solution adopted by Koso, was to put this warning light reserve fuel, just as there is in the panel's original FI Ninja.

If the gauge gets its signal from the stock fuel sending unit then that would explain it not being accurate. The gauge is only as accurate as the sending unit and it is known that most of these bikes have indicated fuel issues.

[wayanlam]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

If the gauge gets its signal from the stock fuel sending unit then that would explain it not being accurate. The gauge is only as accurate as the sending unit and it is known that most of these bikes have indicated fuel issues.

yeah, with the original speedo it was already giving un-accurate readings, after a refill it would indicate full, then it would stay there for a little while (guess cos i fill the bike up to the brim). then it would drop down to half or 1/3 really fast, and often indicate almost empty way before its empty!

since i got the bike ive gotten in the habit of counting the distance traveled to indicate when i need a refill rather than the fuel gauge. the bike (08+) doesn't have a Res. so if you get stranded... there are no extra drops of gas to get you anywhere, lol

oh, now with the Koso gauge, the fuel sensor signal to the digital fuel gauge is just as inaccurate, it starts at full, then maybe 1/3 to 1/2 way through the tank it indicates i have 10% fuel left, then when im closer to empty, it indicates 50% fuel left, haha... when the bike is motionless, leaning on its kickstand it seems like i can get a slightly better reading. but while on the move, the bars go all over the place

[randomwalk101]

Gauge is the display of the data signal. Sensor provide the signal. If you get a bad signal, fix the sensor...not the display.

[wayanlam]

im not sure if the sensor in the fueltank is broken or what, ive asked a couple other guys that have the Koso gauge here, and they all told me that their fuel indicator isnt accurate either, sooo... i just assumed that its how it is and that i cant do anything about it.

[dubojr1]

Any other KOSO owners out there having this issue?

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Canoas

anyone knows which wire of these three (connecting to the speed sensor) is the speed signal wire? I need to know to tap into for the gear indicator.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

anyone knows which wire of these three (connecting to the speed sensor) is the speed signal wire? I need to know to tap into for the gear indicator.

Perhaps trial and error may work, or will it blow a fuse?

[randomwalk101]

Got confirmation back from koso. it's the brown one.

[randomwalk101]

Question: Are there two plug & play wire harness for our bike for the Koso gauge? one for FI bikes (no fuel wire hooked up) and one for carb bike?

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Question: Are there two plug & play wire harness for our bike for the Koso gauge? one for FI bikes (no fuel wire hooked up) and one for carb bike?

Yes

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Yes

Yup..just got a confirmation from Koso that there are two version too..which means Shito Paul sent me the wrong one!

[dubojr1]

Did they explain how they are different? Does your kit included the harness part #? Last digit is zero for carbs. and 1 for FI.