trading up?? dont wanna get flamed??? Read me.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by kamikaze

but does that not sacrifice acceleration?

short answer, of course it does. If you go to a taller gear, you lose acceleration.

[Error_mage]

I’ve got a completely stock 09 ninjette, didn’t even bother shimming it yet. Speed limits for the highways here are around 80mph, buy may be higher at times; the ninja moves me (~200lbs) at 90ish mph when I have the throttle cracked wide open. So yes its highway capable, but it’s not fun and thus I avoid highway travel when possible; would a bigger bike make a difference? Maybe, haven’t tried yet…

As for more power getting people out of trouble. Well more power may help to get people out of trouble some times, but more power also seems to get you into trouble more often =P

Now I don’t know about doing wheelies from a stoplight, but the 250’s got enough power to enjoy the ride and keep up with any sane group trough the twisties. Additional acceleration for passing and more leg space would be nice, but the return on mods seems rather low…(+rear sets are spendy)
-just my opinion on the topic-

[almost40]

Originally Posted by kamikaze

yea, a sprocket swap will definitely help with the high rpms, but does that not sacrifice acceleration?

You be the judge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK6PL-arjyo

[almost40]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

short answer, of course it does. If you go to a taller gear, you lose acceleration.

Not if you add power. Mine was fastest at the dragstrip with a 41T on the rear. Its modded of course and Im a lightweight.

[Vegedurden]

Originally Posted by almost40

Not if you add power.

That means you compensate for a loss. So yes, initially you've lost acceleration.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by almost40

You be the judge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK6PL-arjyo

There's nothing to judge. If you change over to a taller gear you will lose acceleration.

[almost40]

This is all way off topic. That being said.

Depends on what distance you use to messure the acceleration.

I used a 1/4 mile dragstrip.
All things equal, same bike, same night, same rider. Temp only dropped 2 degrees and humitity was constant.
My bike was the fastest thru the 1/4 mile with a 41.
I tried stock 45 a 43 and a 41.
Granted the bike slowed down alot the next weekend when I tried a 15/43. That was too much gear.
1/8 mile times will be closer to validating your claim (on my bike) but the change of sprocket was nearly unnoticeable on the timeslips. (Yes the 45 was the quickest in the 1/8 but only by a tenth on the best pass.)

If you mod the bike for more power. A sprocket change will be benifical to acceleration in a 1/4 mile.
Disclaimer
I never tested the stock bike as I modded mine at 400 miles.

Changing the sprocket only really affects 2 gears in the gearbox.
1st and 6th.
a 41t in 5th is nearly the same ratio as 6th with a 45T
a 41t in first is a first and a half gear if that makes any sense. Taller than stock 1st but lower than 2nd.

If you want 1st gear to be useable and 6th to be more like an overdrive I dont think you give up a whole hell of alot on a stock bike. Of course I cant back that up with any numbers but there are plenty that switch to a 15T front and dont complain about a loss of acceleration.
Try it........its a cheap mod and easy to do. (less than $35 and an hour of two of your time.)

BTW glad to see this move to a constructive topic as the other was getting worn out.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Error_mage

the return on mods seems rather low…(+rear sets are spendy)
-just my opinion on the topic-

I dont know $750 bucks for a 20% increase in power doesnt seem to pricey to me. IMO
All power mods of course.
Ya cant get that return on your money on a 600.
It would cost alot more to squeese another 20-25 ponies out of a 600 for your 20% increase in power.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

There's nothing to judge. If you change over to a taller gear you will lose acceleration.

Well I personally think the bike is undergeared from the factory in stock form for a lightweight like me.
Weight does play a major role here.
Over 185lbs I totally agree.
Under 150 I beg to differ.

[Vegedurden]

Sprocket swaps are a tradeoff: you either sacrifice speed at given RPM (including top speed) to gain acceleration and torque, or you sacrifice acceleration and torque to gain speed at given RPM (e.g. top speed).

http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/moto...ocketmath.html

That means all other things unchanged, if you swap sprockets to improve your top speed, your acceleration will be worse. So you'll cruise on the highway at lower RPM, but it will take longer to increase speed (e.g. to get up to overtaking speed).

That's high school level physics, really.

Now of course, you can further mod your bike to compensate for that loss, but the sprocket swap in itself is that simple. Gain top speed and lose acceleration vs gain acceleration and lose top speed.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Vegedurden

That's high school level physics, really.

As Im sure it is.

I see the math and on paper its correct.

None of the calculations take into account the riders weight or what the designers of the bike and its mechanical parts estimated to be the average weight load to be. (Im guessing its 185ish on our ninjette)

As I said weight means alot to acceleration.
Even more so on a machine that weighs less than 400 pounds. 40 pounds is 10% on the bike and 1% in a 4000 pound car.
Add 10% more weight or subtract it and it will change the times at the dragstrip on a stock bike. no doubt

[Cuongism]

Does changing sprockets affect top speed and acceleration? Technically yes. Will an average person feel a noticeable difference on a 250? Probably not (unless you go to extremes with the teeth).

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Vegedurden

That means all other things unchanged, if you swap sprockets to improve your top speed, your acceleration will be worse. So you'll cruise on the highway at lower RPM, but it will take longer to increase speed (e.g. to get up to overtaking speed).

This is generally the case, but there are some complexities. First off, it takes time to shift. This is shown by vehicles (cars) that need to shift twice before 60 mph have slightly slower 0-60 times than ones that can hit 60 mph in second gear. Even with the same exact power, the car with a taller gear was able to accelerate to a certain speed sooner.

In an extreme case, vehicles with very, very short gearing are not accelerating faster due to the fact of so many shifts interrupting the acceleration. Yes - it is true the right off the line, in 1st gear, the taller the gearing the proportionally slower the takeoff will be. But once in the powerband in 1st gear, if the gearing is such that upshifts still keep the bike in the powerband, acceleration might be surprisingly comparable.

[Error_mage]

Originally Posted by almost40

I dont know $750 bucks for a 20% increase in power doesnt seem to pricey to me. IMO
All power mods of course.
Ya cant get that return on your money on a 600.
It would cost alot more to squeese another 20-25 ponies out of a 600 for your 20% increase in power.

I guess that depends on your point of view and I can absolutely respect everyone having their own views on this, depending on what you want to do with your bike.

20% sounds good, but it only comes up to like 6hp and your paying around a third or a quarter of the bikes purchase cost.

For me personally (just learning to ride with good form etc. and sticking to the street), I can’t see the mods being worth it. But if the 250’s the perfect bike for you and you plan on riding it for a long time or tacking it to the track regularly then those mods are probably worth every cent. =)

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Error_mage

I guess that depends on your point of view and I can absolutely respect everyone having their own views on this, depending on what you want to do with your bike.

20% sounds good, but it only comes up to like 6hp and your paying around a third or a quarter of the bikes purchase cost.

For me personally (just learning to ride with good form etc. and sticking to the street), I can’t see the mods being worth it. But if the 250’s the perfect bike for you and you plan on riding it for a long time or tacking it to the track regularly then those mods are probably worth every cent. =)

No biggie....to each his own.... Ironic that the same 20% on a 600 is close to $2000 which a quarter of the bikes cost.

[Live2ride]

I've begun thinking of buying another bike. I sat on a few at the dealership and it seemed that the new gen cbr 600rr fit my extremely well; I have yet to sit on a gsxr. I'm so glad I decided to buy my ninja 250 to learn on and I have absolutely no complaints about power considering I can easily break the speed limit anywhere with this awesome machine. My only draw back is my height really; My weight doesn't seem to effect the bikes handling much at all. When I sat on the 600rr my back felt comfortable in the more aggressive position and the gas tank felt like it was molded specifically for my legs which is the main drawback to my height with my ninjette.

That being said; I'm not looking for more power in any bike I buy; I'm looking for comfort-ability for a 6'2" 235lb guy . I wish I could somehow just redesign the gas tank of my 250 because that's the only drawback I can seem to find (I ain't no midget!). I've tried rearset adjusters and changing body positiong but nothing seems to help enough . I wish they would make a cbr 600rr body with our 250 engine.

[Clearlynotstefan]

Wow. This thread is really disappointing. It goes to show once again, that as much as supersport riders don't understand the 250, 250 riders don't understand the super sport.

First, and I'm really not trying to be rude here, I promise, but starting a whole new thread, just to tell people what not to say, is an absurd thing to do... If someone wants a 600+, it's not up to strangers on a forum to justify there reasoning, or preemptively tell them that this or that reason is dumb.

I have a gsxr 600, and a ninja 250. I love the 250, but I can tell you this from my experience. The gsxr is a superior bike in every facet except efficiency, and 5mph parking lot riding. Its fully adjustable suspension feels infinitely better then the 250.

I'm not saying everyone should rush out and buy a SS, but lets not bash those that do. No one is mandating 250 riders to step up. Hell, I kept my 250 when I got my gsxr, I love my 250.

As for the speed issue. There is more than one side to speed. Top speed is what you guys appear to be talking about, but that's not the issue here. My gsxr can haul my 200lb ass at least 160mph. I have never broke 120, and that was at a strip! Acceleration on the other hand, can be used entirely within legal boundaries, and provide great fun to riders. I could hit 60 in 3.x off the line. I can merge onto expressways in 3rd gear, and be at the flow of traffic faster then I could imagine on the 250. I can pass idiot-long-island-SUV-cellphone-cages in no time at all. These are things I love about the bike. I love that it feels stuck to the road.

As for the torque/safety issue. I genuinely can say that I have used torque to escape situations regularly. I could have escaped them in other ways with the 250, and have, but torque wasn't an option. Here is a comment I made in a similar post a while back

An SUV didn't see me and tried to merge into my lane on the Long Island Expressway. The reality of that situation is you have 3 viable options.

1) You use your torque to blast forward into the ample space you SHOULD be leaving between you and the car in front of you which by the way is something YOU control. This option has the HUGE benefit of taking place entirely within your current line of sight, you don't have to look in your mirrors, or spin your head.

2) You decelerate to create the space for the car to enter the lane. This option requires you to know there is a safe distance behind you, requiring additional time to check mirrors, etc. It also requires blind faith that the car behind you will slow when you suddenly grab the brakes. It always requires the car behind you to be following at a safe distance, which opposed to option one, is OUT of your control.

3) You shift into the lane to the opposite side of the oncoming car. Requires you to check mirrors, and is a game of chance as to whether or not there will even be an opening for a safe lane change, which is not something you really want to be taking time to think about while an SUV is barreling into your lane.

Of the three options provided, in my opinion, one is clearly the safest choice, by a wide margin. It's the fastest, requires the least thinking, requires no game of chance scenarios, and places no expectations on other drivers. To me, torque is a useful tool to have right here.

Obviously torque can be dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced rider, and I'm not advocating for a beginner to get anything larger then a 250, and never will. What I'm saying, is if an experienced, safe rider, with the money to spend, want's to buy a SS, he can use any reasoning he wants in my book.

I hope I didn't offend or challenge anyone in this thread, that really isn't my intent. I'm not trying to start a flame war.

[azimmer11]

Originally Posted by Clearlynotstefan

I'm really not trying to be rude here, I promise, but starting a whole new thread, just to tell people what not to say, is an absurd thing to do...

+1

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Live2ride

I've begun thinking of buying another bike. I sat on a few at the dealership and it seemed that the new gen cbr 600rr fit my extremely well; I have yet to sit on a gsxr. I'm so glad I decided to buy my ninja 250 to learn on and I have absolutely no complaints about power considering I can easily break the speed limit anywhere with this awesome machine. My only draw back is my height really; My weight doesn't seem to effect the bikes handling much at all. When I sat on the 600rr my back felt comfortable in the more aggressive position and the gas tank felt like it was molded specifically for my legs which is the main drawback to my height with my ninjette.

That being said; I'm not looking for more power in any bike I buy; I'm looking for comfort-ability for a 6'2" 235lb guy . I wish I could somehow just redesign the gas tank of my 250 because that's the only drawback I can seem to find (I ain't no midget!). I've tried rearset adjusters and changing body positiong but nothing seems to help enough . I wish they would make a cbr 600rr body with our 250 engine.

I'm sure a local metal shop could do anything you like to your tank if you enjoy the lil ninjette so much. I feel your pain and would love to see a bit of a design change in the tank lip. Business opp. maybe!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Clearlynotstefan

Obviously torque can be dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced rider, and I'm not advocating for a beginner to get anything larger then a 250, and never will. What I'm saying, is if an experienced, safe rider, with the money to spend, want's to buy a SS, he can use any reasoning he wants in my book.

I hope I didn't offend or challenge anyone in this thread, that really isn't my intent. I'm not trying to start a flame war.

But what you are bringing up is exactly what started it last time. Nobody is debating any of the points you bring up, or disagreeing with your point that there are some unique circumstances where more acceleration puts more space between you and someone else. The topic of this thread is on how many brand new riders, after either crashing their 250, or not being able to keep up with their friends due to lack of experience, or who can't shake the ego issues with riding a small bike, justify buying a larger bike very early on for completely silly reasons related to perceived safety. As listed in the first post.

[Lil_Green_Demon]

Aw, man! I can't wait to get rid of my frikkin' Ninja 250R. Booooooooooooooooooooooooooo to 250cc bikes!
I want a Hayabusa that I can stretch out, put chrome accessories on, do power wheelies while I ride by girls who think I'm macho because I don't wear any gear!
I can't wait until I have enough power to split between two mach trucks on the highway! Oh, trust me when I say I'll be having fun, that means I'll definitely be having fun!

[Lil_Green_Demon]

My post was about absolutely nothing. Just felt like being sarcastic.


Now to drop my honest opinion:
I just don't give a ****.


If you have to justify a purchase on a forum to complete strangers, you need to spend your time doing something more productive. I don't care about anyone's reasons for not riding a 250 or not riding an SS. Either way, it's not affecting me financially. You? That's a different story.
If you can afford an SS, go for it. 600cc bikes are amazing. You really don't even need a liter bike. Most 600cc bikes are more than quick enough for the street. I don't blame people for not wanting a 250, but I know better than to jump to any larger displacement bike any time soon.
Even when the day comes when I decide to hop onto a ZX-6R or CBR600RR or (my dream bike) an 848 Evo, I'll most likely still have my 250R parked in the garage, waiting for me to rip through a twisty road (something I don't do often, to be honest, but I enjoy it nonetheless).