Had the first attempt made on my life today

[Numbersix]

Um, showing up with a crowd at someone's door can get you shot, too, and depending on jurisdiction there may be no 'duty to retreat' on his part.

[FBNTH]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

An inconsiderate or rude driver is not what you described. Being inconsiderate or even a jerk driver doesn't warrant your time worrying about.

However, a stalker/bully is a different matter. Those have to be dealt with. That is, someone who is deliberately threatening your life. A non-violent way to deal with the guy would be to get a half dozen or more biker friends to go with you to his house. Knock on the door and tell him that you didn't appreciate him trying to kill you. That might be enough, but if not....

The bottom line is that only you can decide the appropriate course of action when dealing with bad people you encounter on the road.

Me, I have a zero tolerance policy for people trying to kill me (in case you haven't figured it out already).

Actually he did describe an inconsiderate hot headed driver. If the driver was trying to kill him he would not have slowed down and just run him over but he didn't. Once the finger flew is when things turned worse. Now you have 2 heated drivers on the road which is very dangerous.

The OP noticed the speeding driver early enough to have pulled off the road or turn onto a side road, which he did not. When the driver was tailgating him, he could have slowed down causing the inconsiderate driver to get frustrated and go around him, but he decided to speed up instead. Speeding up only caused the speeder behind him to speed up also. Let offensive gestures fly and now you have bad situation turned worse.

Your zero tolerance policy sounds more like vigilante justice than self defense. Good luck telling the jury that you felt your life was threatened as you went home to pick up your shotgun and call your local posse so you could defend yourself.

To the OP, I think you understand that some bad decisions were made. Just take it as a learning experience and move on. Road Rage is a serious problem which can prove to be deadly, its usually best to play it cool at let things go.

[KawiKid860]

To the OP, I think you understand that some bad decisions were made. Just take it as a learning experience and move on. Road Rage is a serious problem which can prove to be deadly, its usually best to play it cool at let things go.

This is key. Next time I'll make sure the obscenities don't leave my helmet.

[CharlieBucket]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

How was I supposed to know he'd still match my speed? Speeding up was a better option than having a 2 ton car only a few feet behind me.

Some people have responded to this, but I believe it warrants a bit more explanation. The reason everyone is telling you that you should not have sped up is not that they necessarily would have assumed he would have matched your speed - there was clearly no way you could have known that.

However, when you have someone on your tail, their time to react to changing conditions (such as you needing to quickly break) is extremely limited. To counteract the short time they have allowed before they might collide with you, you must maximize the time you have to react. That means keeping your speed steady or even slowing down gradually, ensuring that even if an obstacle appears in your path, you have time to react without getting hit.

Sometimes, keeping yourself safe can actually be a bit counter-intuitive. I hope this explanation helps.

Stay safe!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Numbersix

Um, showing up with a crowd at someone's door can get you shot, too, and depending on jurisdiction there may be no 'duty to retreat' on his part.

True, and if you do that, you definitely want to have your CCW handy in case you need it. If all you are doing is knocking on his door and politely telling him he shouldn't harass bikers, then he doesn't have a right to use a gun - no matter how many people are there. Take a video camera just to make sure things stay civil.

Originally Posted by FBNTH

Actually he did describe an inconsiderate hot headed driver. ...

Well the title to the thread says it all...

In any event, the vast majority of drivers that mess with you do not do so deliberately. In most cases, just moving to the right hand portion of the lane and slowing down is enough to get them to pass you and move on. In their case, they are in a hurry and view you as being in their way. They WILL pass you if you give them a chance by pulling over to the right side of the lane.

But in rare cases, they wont pass you because their GOAL is to harass, intimidate or stalk you. This is biker rage. That is, they hate bikers because they are bikers and for no other reason. They are especially prone to do this on rural roads where there are fewer witnesses.

For example, say the speed limit is 45 and the guy in a pickup starts tailgating you. You pull over to the right and slow down to 20. There is plenty of room for the guy to pass. But he just slows right down behind you. Then if you stop, he stops too. He is one that must be dealt with. You know how I would do it, but you can do it however you want.

Biker rage is very real. A local kid was run off the road by a guy in a pickup truck. Then he clubbed the biker to within an inch of his life. Even though the biker was in full gear, the beating was so severe that it tore through the helmet and broke the kids jaw. That and numerous other injuries put the kid in the trauma center. The two did not know each other. Like I said, you have to deal with this kind of stuff when you can.

Although I in no way blame the OP, it is clear that he made a few mistakes. Using his finger is probably the biggest mistake. In road rage situations, that is like pouring gas on a fire. The other mistake was in speeding up rather than pulling over to the right.

[akima]

On the UK equivalent of the MSF course they taught us to pull in at a petrol station ("gas station" to you!). The reasoning behind this is that they:
* Always have cameras
* Are frequently placed on the roads
* Are very likely to have other people around to witness any ensuing rage or even have your back!

Seems like good advice to me!

The only down side I can think of is that in the UK there is normally quite a bumpy curb leading into the petrol station. You have to take the turn into it quite slowly. That and there is likely to be petrol on the ground.

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

True, and if you do that, you definitely want to have your CCW handy in case you need it. If all you are doing is knocking on his door and politely telling him he shouldn't harass bikers, then he doesn't have a right to use a gun - no matter how many people are there. Take a video camera just to make sure things stay civil.



Well the title to the thread says it all...

In any event, the vast majority of drivers that mess with you do not do so deliberately. In most cases, just moving to the right hand portion of the lane and slowing down is enough to get them to pass you and move on. In their case, they are in a hurry and view you as being in their way. They WILL pass you if you give them a chance by pulling over to the right side of the lane.

But in rare cases, they wont pass you because their GOAL is to harass, intimidate or stalk you. This is biker rage. That is, they hate bikers because they are bikers and for no other reason. They are especially prone to do this on rural roads where there are fewer witnesses.

For example, say the speed limit is 45 and the guy in a pickup starts tailgating you. You pull over to the right and slow down to 20. There is plenty of room for the guy to pass. But he just slows right down behind you. Then if you stop, he stops too. He is one that must be dealt with. You know how I would do it, but you can do it however you want.

Biker rage is very real. A local kid was run off the road by a guy in a pickup truck. Then he clubbed the biker to within an inch of his life. Even though the biker was in full gear, the beating was so severe that it tore through the helmet and broke the kids jaw. That and numerous other injuries put the kid in the trauma center. The two did not know each other. Like I said, you have to deal with this kind of stuff when you can.

Although I in no way blame the OP, it is clear that he made a few mistakes. Using his finger is probably the biggest mistake. In road rage situations, that is like pouring gas on a fire. The other mistake was in speeding up rather than pulling over to the right.

to bad he didnt have a gun at that point...

[FBNTH]

Im still trying to understand what could be gained by having a gun?

And we wonder why the world views us like blood thirsty cowboys.

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by FBNTH

Im still trying to understand what could be gained by having a gun?

Your life?

Originally Posted by FBNTH

And we wonder why the world views us like blood thirsty cowboys.

better then a bunch of pussies.

[FBNTH]

Sorry I missed the part where the OP lost his life. Does this make him a Ghost Writer or a Ghost Rider or maybe both?

Sorry still dont buy it, but I guess thats just my opinion.

[TenaciousD]

Gun laws differ from state to state, but brandishing a firearm to another driver on the road will land you in jail a lot faster than aggressive driving. You might be justified in doing it but it will be up to your lawyer to prove that you felt your life was in danger (and you BETTER have a concealed carry permit). It will be hard for him to prove that because if your life were truly in danger you would have had to shoot the guy. If you do shoot the guy and he's dead, you have to prove that you believed he was trying to kill you. If you have the gun and he doesn't, it's a very hard case to prove. Still, there are situations where you must meet force with force and let the chips fall where they may, but just be damn sure it is truly a life or death situation before you escalate to such a level.

If you go to his house and knock (more likely pound) on his door, in Florida at least, under the castle doctrine and the 'stand your ground' law, he can shoot you and then his lawyer will have to prove that he believed his life was in danger. That's a much easier case to prove because you are at the guy's house just minutes or hours after having a road rage incident with the guy (even though he's the rager). I'd probably shoot you too.

Overall, I think you did the best you could with the situation. The middle fingers were a bad idea but I won't second-guess your reaction to an obviously ugly situation. You came out unhurt and that's all that really matters.

[KawiKid860]

Sorry I missed the part where the OP lost his life. Does this make him a Ghost Writer or a Ghost Rider or maybe both?

Sorry still dont buy it, but I guess thats just my opinion.

xD Just to clarify I'm still 100% alive, and I'd love to keep myself that way. Guns = bad idea, I'll stick to armored gloves, jacket and helmet for a fist fight over pulling a gun... that's just adding more fuel to the fire as someone said earlier when referring to me using my middle finger.

[FBNTH]

Originally Posted by massacremasses

better then a bunch of pussies.

P**** with a gun is still a p****. Having a gun to intimidate people does nothing to command respect.

[Jiggles]

Now I feel safe

[KawiKid860]

I have a feeling this is going to turn into a flame war x:

[FBNTH]

nah it shouldn't. the point I was trying to make is just that guns aren't always the answer and should be a last resort.

[KawiKid860]

agreed

[n4mwd]

Brandishing a firearm is illegal in FL and probably other states too. Brandishing means to pull it out and threaten somebody with it. It doesn't matter if the other guy is breaking the law. It will get you 5 years minimum mandatory.

Until recently, even an accidental exposure of your CCW gun was enough to get you thrown in jail in FL.

So when you MUST use your gun, you need to shoot it and not wave it or point it or threaten with it. You don't have to kill the crook, but if you don't, you could be sued for medical damages if he survives. Also, the crook will swear that you were brandishing it for 20 minutes before it went off.

The bottom line is that its OK to shoot your gun in self defense as in the case of a tailgating stalker, but not as revenge because someone nearly ran you off the road.

As far as not wanting to carry a gun. That's your right. But know that the stalker probably has one.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Brandishing a firearm is illegal in FL and probably other states too. Brandishing means to pull it out and threaten somebody with it. It doesn't matter if the other guy is breaking the law. It will get you 5 years minimum mandatory.

Until recently, even an accidental exposure of your CCW gun was enough to get you thrown in jail in FL.

So when you MUST use your gun, you need to shoot it and not wave it or point it or threaten with it. You don't have to kill the crook, but if you don't, you could be sued for medical damages if he survives. Also, the crook will swear that you were brandishing it for 20 minutes before it went off.

The bottom line is that its OK to shoot your gun in self defense as in the case of a tailgating stalker, but not as revenge because someone nearly ran you off the road.

As far as not wanting to carry a gun. That's your right. But know that the stalker probably has one.

Uhm no, it's not.

Self Defense yes, Tailgaters no

[rusninja]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

xD Just to clarify I'm still 100% alive

Damn it! :[ jk XD

[FBNTH]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The bottom line is that its OK to shoot your gun in self defense as in the case of a tailgating stalker

I would like to recommend that you pick up FLORIDA FIREARMS Law, Use & Ownership - Seventh Edition by Jon H. Gutmacher

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by FBNTH

P**** with a gun is still a p****. Having a gun to intimidate people does nothing to command respect.

Im glad you read so well and have obviously read my other posts in this thread...

[massacremasses]

bottom line avoid conflict....


you never want to use a gun to hurt someone. Even if they are a jerk. Being a jerk isnt reason to kill anyone...

[Alex]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The bottom line is that its OK to shoot your gun in self defense as in the case of a tailgating stalker

Legally this is on the shakiest of ground, but practically it finds no ground whatsoever. If a motorcycle near my car, who is getting agitated about me being near their bike, pulls out a gun in anger, the bike is going to be knocked to the ground and the rider run over with both axles before they'd have a chance to lift their arm. I think people are forgetting how vulnerable motorcycles truly are in contact with any other vehicle on the road. And in turn, how vulnerable the human body is when it hits pavement at speed (and then gets hit by vehicle after vehicle at speed).

I abhor tailgaters, and do my best to leave a tremendous amount of room between myself and drivers/riders ahead out of common courtesy, and it's highly unlikely anyone would ever believe me to be tailgating them.

But the point stands. If you're being tailgated, make it stop. No, firearms don't need to be brought into the discussion.

[KawiKid860]

Damn it! :[ jk XD

^ I have a feeling he doesn't like me

Anyways, I've probably posted this like 10 times already, but I don't think guns are the answer unless you're like surrounded by gangsters or something of that magnitude. A firefight has massive potential to hurt innocent people around it...

[tanman2003]

Originally Posted by massacremasses

Your life?



better then a bunch of pussies.

[tanman2003]

I'm on eggshells if I'm on my bike. If I'm cagin' it, If it is a serious injustice... I take **** from no one...

[tanman2003]

Originally Posted by FBNTH

P**** with a gun is still a p****. Having a gun to intimidate people does nothing to command respect.

that is true. also a gun with someone not willing to use it when necessary, is a danger to themselves and others.

[Toly]

A friend of mine almost merged his SUV on top of a Harley somewhere in PA. When the biker rode up next to him, screaming ****, the cager just gave him a finger and kept going. The biker rode forward, dismounted, pulled out a gun and shot at the car's back as it passed by. Luckily no one got hit, but it taught him to never ever f**k with the bikers.

[RaZeDaHeLL]

I would have flipped him off too!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Alex

Legally this is on the shakiest of ground, but practically it finds no ground whatsoever.

Not in Florida. But bear in mind that I specifically said "stalker". You can't shoot some nut just because he's following too close, but if he's doing it deliberately to harass you, then yes you can, because he is jeopardizing your life with malice intent.

If a motorcycle near my car, who is getting agitated about me being near their bike, pulls out a gun in anger, the bike is going to be knocked to the ground and the rider run over with both axles before they'd have a chance to lift their arm. I think people are forgetting how vulnerable motorcycles truly are in contact with any other vehicle on the road. And in turn, how vulnerable the human body is when it hits pavement at speed (and then gets hit by vehicle after vehicle at speed).

This is a good point and goes to the point that you shouldn't brandish a firearm. Use it if you need to, but don't brandish it. Also, put some distance between you and the stalker and get him as he approaches.

[FBNTH]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Not in Florida. But bear in mind that I specifically said "stalker". You can't shoot some nut just because he's following too close, but if he's doing it deliberately to harass you, then yes you can, because he is jeopardizing your life with malice intent.

So lets say this "Stalker" followed you home and was peeking into your windows at home. Are you saying you can shoot him in the face because he's a stalker?

I hope I don't see you on the news one day.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by FBNTH

So lets say this "Stalker" followed you home and was peeking into your windows at home. Are you saying you can shoot him in the face because he's a stalker?

I hope I don't see you on the news one day.

If I have reason to fear for my life, then yes. Florida has a stand your ground law that would protect me. The only exception is that you can't shoot him in the back. The face is OK. Shooting in the back indicates that he was running away from you, and hence, you were not in danger.

There was a case almost exactly as you describe here not long ago. The victim was acquitted because of the stand your ground law. A teenage kid went to the guys front door, his neighbor, and got shot dead. I'm not sure what the whole story was, but I'm sure there was more to it than that.

[n4mwd]

This isn't the one I was looking for, but its a similar story and almost dead on to your question of what you can do to a stalker in FL...

Here is the story.

[FBNTH]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

If I have reason to fear for my life, then yes. Florida has a stand your ground law that would protect me. The only exception is that you can't shoot him in the back. The face is OK. Shooting in the back indicates that he was running away from you, and hence, you were not in danger.

There was a case almost exactly as you describe here not long ago. The victim was acquitted because of the stand your ground law. A teenage kid went to the guys front door, his neighbor, and got shot dead. I'm not sure what the whole story was, but I'm sure there was more to it than that.

I live in Florida, I know about Stand your Ground and I know about Castle Doctrine. You shooting someone in the face peeking through your window because you felt threatened is NOT a valid excuse.

Like I said before, get the book I recommended in the earlier post so you have a better understanding of our laws. Its written by a Florida Lawyer who's practice is primarily devoted to charges involving firearms, weapons, and self defense issues.

Dont take my word for it. Read up on it yourself from a law expert who specializes in this sort of thing.

[FBNTH]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

This isn't the one I was looking for, but its a similar story and almost dead on to your question of what you can do to a stalker in FL...

Here is the story.

From that article is says, "Monahan said the men had tried to remove him from the sailboat, which he had bought from Mohlman six months earlier for $1,000."

This is not the same as someone peeking through your window. They got physical with him and it was 2 against 1. He had a justified fear because they outnumbered him on his property. Them getting physical with him justified it, nothing else.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by FBNTH

From that article is says, "Monahan said the men had tried to remove him from the sailboat, which he had bought from Mohlman six months earlier for $1,000."

This is not the same as someone peeking through your window. They got physical with him and it was 2 against 1. He had a justified fear because they outnumbered him on his property. Them getting physical with him justified it, nothing else.

Maybe you missed this part:

The Assistant State attorney in the case, Jacqui Charbonneau, tried to prevent the court’s dismissal by asserting neither of the men Monahan killed were armed, they were shot from 20 feet away, and Monahan admitted neither of them laid a hand on him during the dispute.

The judge countered with the fact that the statute does not call for the assailants to be armed or to commit physical violence, only to have created the perception of imminent violence. The most relevant part of the statute reads:

“A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

--
But in all fairness, for your example to be a valid reason, the stalker would have to have some way to get at the person. Such as if the victim went outside to confront them. Shooting through the window probably wouldn't fly unless the stalker was armed or perceived to be armed.

But back to the point of tailgating stalkers, they DO have a weapon called a motor vehicle. For all you know, the stalker may believe that he can just bump you a little and you'll be OK, just scared a bit. In reality, you'll probably be under his wheels. Since most of the stalkings I have heard about have happened on remote roads with no witnesses, I doubt they would stop and help you.

[FBNTH]

Yes I did miss it, sorry. Im at work and saw the ad in the middle of the page and thought that was it. Didn't realize its actually 7 pages long.

Someone bumping you and someone being a tailgating stalker are 2 completely different things. While I doubt we will agree, ultimately the only thing that matters is what you can convince a jury of your peers to believe.

In this particular case that the OP described, my belief is that the situation was needlessly escalated and could have been avoided. As the story was told, there was no need to get a gun involved and the situation scared him enough to understand the importance of being defensive/passive on the road.

Please be safe out there.

[n4mwd]

(That's the good finger not the bad one.)