test something for me when you have a chance guys

[Rys]

I gonna fall at some point if I cant get my act together. I am downshifting as I slow so I can keep track of what gear I am in. Going from second to first keeps getting me. It seems to me my back tire should grip better than it does. It keeps breaking loose on me when I go from second down to first which is generally about the point I am turning.

Do me a favor and test out how fast you can be going and down shift into first without giving throttle before the back tire will start to break loose. Its happened to me several times and I honestly cant remember if the tires were warm or not or if they were still cold possibly. I'm gonna test some this weekend so I can see but it seems to me it will break loose around 8-10mph. It gives me the heebie jeebies every time it happens. Then again like I said I am usually about to turn into a parking lot or into a neighborhood and maybe there has been some sand or something there that I didn't see thats causing it break loose.

[Alex]

You're letting the clutch out too quickly, and/or not giving the engine enough time (or enough throttle) to match up with rear wheel speed.

But - there's almost never a need to downshift all the way back down to 1st while the bike is still rolling. You can stay in second almost all the way to a stop, and only shift to first if you really are coming to a stop.

[GateKeeper]

As Alex has said no need to go down to first.....when slowing down

I use first only when starting from a dead stop

[Rys]

Maybe my bike is a bit different from yours. Pulling into the office parking lot is a slight uphill and at the speed I need to turn in, first is the correct gear for me. second would stall without some serious throttle and clutch work. I know its just skills that I have not developed yet but... the back tire just feels a little squirrelly to me sometimes. There is nothing worse than doing 30 or 40 in a turn and feeling the tire move left and right because there is some ripple or texture to the road.

Down shifting from 6-5, 5-4, 4-3, 3-2 requires no thought process for me but first is such a short gear I have just not got the timing down and I cant help but feel like there are times when the tire will break loose when it shouldn't. I would have thought that under 10 mph downshifting into 1st shouldn't chirp the back tire even if I'm not on the throttle. Actually it doesn't chirp it just breaks loose lol for some reason it would make me feel better if it made a chirping noise at least it would feel like its trying to grip, instead it's like some stealth ninja that just sneaks up on you.

[Indy250r]

If I recall, the manual says 9MPH or less for d/s to 1st. BUT! This is what rev matching will do for you. It takes a lot of practice, but if you rev the engine slightly, so all the internal parts are going the same speed, you can do it without barking the tire.

Sorry, no time for a good explanation but there are plenty of posts about it.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Rys

Do me a favor and test out how fast you can be going and down shift into first without giving throttle before the back tire will start to break loose.

I just caught this part of the post. Why aren't you giving it throttle when you're downshifting? If you're completely off the throttle while trying to shift into a lower gear, it's always going to make it harder to match speeds. You need to be giving it throttle as you are letting the clutch out. To make things even smoother later on, you can be blipping the throttle to have the engine in the right rev range even before letting the clutch out.

[bob706]

Reminds me of my recent trip to Deals Gap. A few times I was concentrating so hard on the road I forgot I was in 2nd and went to 1st at 20-25mph. Instant oops I crapped my pants moment!

[Rys]

Originally Posted by Alex

I just caught this part of the post. Why aren't you giving it throttle when you're downshifting? If you're completely off the throttle while trying to shift into a lower gear, it's always going to make it harder to match speeds. You need to be giving it throttle as you are letting the clutch out. To make things even smoother later on, you can be blipping the throttle to have the engine in the right rev range even before letting the clutch out.

Like I said The other gears are easy, first just seems to get me, its more sensitive to throttle input. I'm still not as smooth in first as I would like to be. I do try and give a bit of throttle when downshifting but for the sake of trying to find out whether my tires were not gripping properly I asked people to try and find out where it would break loose without throttle. I figured that would be more easily definable than someone saying something like "I gave it about a quarter twist on the throttle at 10mph when downshifting to first and it didn't break loose." I was just trying to keep it simple for testing.

Based on what Indy said it sound like its just my skill set. It just seemed like the rear wheel should grip better

[Alex]

1st is the shortest gear, is particularly short on our bikes, and is always going to be the hardest to get into smoothly. Not being sensitive enough on the clutch or throttle will always have the largest effect of breaking the rear loose, compared to any other gear. From third gear and up, you can practically dump the clutch and it's unlikely to do anything strange at the back wheel. (Not a good habit to take to other bikes, though)

But this isn't a tire issue, it's a practice issue. It'll come with time, don't worry.

[Rys]

I'm glad you mentioned that about just dumping the clutch in the higher gears being a bad thing to carry over to another bike. I have noticed that I there are times i don't even try and throttle match in the higher gears. Sounds like that is a something I don't need to let become a habit. I doubt I'll upgrade to another bike but I would hate to develop any bad habits.

[akima]

I've never had that problem when rolling towards a slow speed, 1st gear hill climb, however I do it differently to you. I don't treat 1st gear like the other gears because... it's a jerky, jumpy nightmare gear! SOooooo, what I do is: when in second gear I completely disengage the clutch so I'm coasting, I use the back break to slow the bike down to about walking speed, bring the revs right up (4000+ RPM) then finally start to engage the clutch and increase the revs as required to deal with the hill. Works every time for me with no jerkyness or loss of traction.

[akima]

Originally Posted by bob706

Reminds me of my recent trip to Deals Gap. A few times I was concentrating so hard on the road I forgot I was in 2nd and went to 1st at 20-25mph. Instant oops I crapped my pants moment!

I've accidentally done the same thing. Scary moment. I felt sorry for the poor bike after I did it; hearing the engine suddenly spin like crazy. Glad I wasn't being tail gated. Also glad the engine didn't pop out ;p

[Guoseph]

Tell us more about what you are doing with your left hand as your are down shifting. Clutch control is easier to learn/practice than rev matching.

[choneofakind]

let the clutch out SLOWLY. there's a friction zone where the clutch is in between engaged and not engaged, but is still slipping. Get to the friction zone, and the engine will get up to the right speed without chirping the tire. Once you get good at that, it might be easier to leave it in second and either be very careful and smooth on the gas, or slip the clutch and give it a little gas. That's what I do around parking lots. First is only for taking off from a dead stop in my books.

Have you taken the MSF course? They teach all the basics like clutch control at low speeds.

[Rys]

yeah I have taken the msf. I'm only 500 or so miles into this journey so not much is second nature yet. I still have to think most things through quite a bit. I think its just that the previous gears are so forgiving that I forget that I have be vigilant when going into first. I have to say that I do wish first was a little taller though. I find it annoyingly short and I am still more jerky in it than I would like to be. I just need to put more parking lot time in.

[Guoseph]

It's definitely taller than the 8-10mph you are going.

As choneofakind said, let out your clutch slowly. Think about when you are starting up from a complete stop, how slow are you letting out the clutch? Now think about your down shift from 2nd to 1st, how fast are you letting out the clutch? Downshifting to 1st at speed, clutch let out should be even slower than a start because engine speed mismatch is potentially higher.

Try this in a parking lot, you can downshift from faster than 8-10 mph without "breaking the rear loose" if you are smooth enough with the clutch, it's not how tall the gear is.

[Havok]

More throttle less clutch dump, rev matching is needed more from second to first then any other gear on the bike.

[CZroe]

Since going 15:38, I've dumped in 1st at some pretty high speeds. It's WAY more forgiving!

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Havok

More throttle less clutch dump, rev matching is needed more from second to first then any other gear on the bike.

Absolutely.

Another thing: Rys, are you pulling your clutch lever all the way in, using all your fingers, during shifts? Doing so in unnecessary and may cause that "dumping the clutch" feel during shifts.

The clutch on a motorcycle is not like a car where you completely disengage the clutch to shift. It has a friction zone you can use to smooth you shifting.

You can leave your ring and pinky finger on the grip where they act sort of a stop so you do not pull in all the way. Only a small, smooth, pull on the lever, in to and out of the friction zone, is needed to slip the clutch for a shift. This works for both up and down shifts.

Hope this helps. Ride safe.

Jeff