September 20th, 2012, 01:19 PM | #41 |
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If an 18 wheeler were crashing into me I'd take it as a field day if the truck (along with all its weight) disappeared only leaving its cargo to hit me. Unfortunately, things just don't vanish into thin air as they're hurtling toward you as you sit at an intersection.
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September 20th, 2012, 01:21 PM | #42 | |
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You don't get sandwiched when you are at the front, unless you get pushed the full way through the junction (intersection) & into the next line of traffic. If that happens then you've been hit so hard that you probably won't be in much of a condition to worry about it anyway. Coming to a complete stop between 2 other vehicles is generally a bad idea. Filter up to the front so you never end up in a sandwich. |
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September 20th, 2012, 01:24 PM | #43 |
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You're forgetting we're from America. Our laws will write us tickets and give us points against our driver's license if we're caught ****ing up. Our laws unfortunately consider filtering (called lane splitting here) as "****ing up". Only state that has the rules about filtering/lane splitting right (but has everything else backwards) is California.
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September 20th, 2012, 01:48 PM | #44 | |
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September 20th, 2012, 02:16 PM | #45 |
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Had the same problem OP. Would hold the clutch in during a turn, knew i was doin it all wrong so i finally said fck it, learned how to blip + downshift properly and after a good 20mins it was all good. Since I ride by myself and am self taught, im sure theres still some stuff im really bad at, but at least im able to properly go through a turn without holding the clutch in :P
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September 20th, 2012, 03:09 PM | #46 |
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Yep. A lot of our laws don't make sense at all. If filtering and lane splitting were allowed I probably wouldn't lane split while moving, but I definitely would filter to the front at every single light or in traffic. That's the bike's largest advantage over a cage in traffic. It's insane our governments don't allow us to at least filter to the front at lights. Damn jealous cager lobbyists I suppose.
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September 20th, 2012, 03:37 PM | #47 | |
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A small % of vehicles being bikes filtering speeds up traffic by a considerable amount of time. A study from last year found 10% of rush hour commuters cages replaced by bikes filtering reduces traffic congestion by 63% |
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September 20th, 2012, 04:10 PM | #48 |
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what is the point of clicking to neutral outside of laziness? there is none. what advantages can be had by leaving it in gear? i could write a book about it. so now tell me which is a better idea?
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September 20th, 2012, 06:03 PM | #49 | |
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**** like this really makes me want to travel the world and live the way other countries and cultures live. |
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September 20th, 2012, 11:50 PM | #51 |
ninjette.org sage
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I know. I've stated that if you've read my previous posts.
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September 29th, 2012, 05:11 AM | #52 | |
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Approaching a complete stop (red light)
On warning (Red & yellow) light
Now maybe you know more about street riding than police bike instructors who train lads to ride all day in all traffic situations & all weather conditions, but as far as I know you're a track junkie. I'll happily take your advice on track skills, but I'll take the advice of the top road riding instructors for my road skills. (sorry for the delay, my WiFi went down & I didn't feel like typing that up on my phone) |
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September 29th, 2012, 06:19 AM | #53 |
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I've perused this thread and seen some good and bad advice. Whatever you do don't listen to Unregistered, he's full of blue mud.
Seriously, going thru a curve with the clutch in is the same as going thru a curve in neutral. All slowing needs to be before you get to the apex of the curve, and after that, you should start rolling on the throttle. Try it and you'll feel the bike "hunker down" and feel right as you exit a curve. If your clutch is in, how will you accelerate? It puts you in a bad predicament because it is impossible to exactly match the engine speed to bike speed and the last thing you want to do is have the bike lurch or flinch when you are leaned over. As for what gear to be in.... unlike cars, motorcycles have a great deal of overlap in their gearing. The gear you need to be in is the one that is just about where you engine's power curve starts to pull. remember you are setting up the exit of the curve. When you get to the apex, you need to be in a gear that isn't too high and bogs your engine. Until you are better skilled, do not brake when leaned over. Roll off the throttle to slow down. If you must brake (ie emergency) straighten the bike upright and brake. As you get better you'll be able to break this rule. Be cautious and don't get yourself into a situation where you have to hard break when leaned over. Do not chop the throttle when leaned over. It makes all the weight go to the front wheel and to the outside of the curve. Rollllll on, rollllll off. Learn it. Live it. Do it. Try it in a car some time and watch the car tip to the front-outside when you chop the gas. Do not do anything that suddenly changes the weight distribution or traction of the bike when in a curve. Sometimes I have tensed up when I've realized I was hitting a curve a little hotter than I thought I should. You've gotta relax. I tell myself that my bike handles good enough to get thru this on its own as long as I don't screw it up. Let the bike do what feels right to the bike. It can lean over further than you imagine without loosing traction. And when stopping, be in whatever gear will allow you to escape as you slow. When you finally come to rest, you should be in first. If your nose itches and you must scratch with your left hand, shift to neutral only after someone is stopped behind you. I tend to stop on the left or right side of the lane. 1) it's not the center where people sit dripping oil for minutes at a time, and 2)it gives you a place to go if some idiot txting behind you isn't stopping... you can escape to the left or right quickly.
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September 29th, 2012, 08:47 AM | #54 |
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You should stay in gear with the clutch pulled at a light.
1) you can move if you need to 2) It's less annoying to other drivers because it doesn't take you forever to start moving again. Drivers are jerks. 3) Bikes have a history of not liking going into 1st at lights. You have to let the clutch out a little to the friction zone and let it drop into first gear for you. I never sit at lights in neutral. I sit in 1st gear with one of the brakes in use. When the light turns green, I look both ways, and start moving. That simple. |
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September 29th, 2012, 11:21 AM | #55 | |
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Saying something is correct without giving any reason or explanation out side of "somebody told me so" is extremely ignorant. Give me one good reason why you would ever flip into neutral while you are on the street outside of laziness. Answer me that one question with a valid reason and I will concede I know nothing. Can't answer it with a valid reason? It's because there is none. Kicking into neutral is a habit to save your hand from hurting. It might be okay where you live, I don't know the frequency of rear ends. But you will never see me sitting on the street in neutral.
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September 29th, 2012, 11:38 AM | #56 |
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September 29th, 2012, 11:41 AM | #57 |
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There's so much bad advice in this thread that it gave me cancer.
So long, earth. |
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September 29th, 2012, 11:44 AM | #58 |
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ikr....
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September 29th, 2012, 11:48 AM | #59 |
wat
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Learned trail braking is next to pointless on the 250. Instead of braking more, brake less and hit the gas sooner. Ive
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September 29th, 2012, 11:48 AM | #60 |
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September 29th, 2012, 11:58 AM | #61 |
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September 29th, 2012, 12:16 PM | #62 |
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Poor OP, he should be really confused at this point !!!
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September 29th, 2012, 01:05 PM | #63 | |
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A lot of people wonder (sometimes even I do this mistake eventhough I know about it) why they run wide in turns. Throttle tightens your turn, sure. But if you don't point your bike first, that's the whole reason you started running wide. Throttle comes after that to keep you running too wide in the EXIT. Brakes help you turn in your bike tighter (since compressed forks make the contact patch on your tires bigger) When you let go off the brakes before you turn, your contact patch gets smaller and the bike feels like a tank and doesn't dive in the corner easily so you enter pretty wide. This is where noobs get scared and they lock their eyes on that beautiful pavement. Key is to not go full retard like I did and lifted my rear up going in a turn |
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September 29th, 2012, 01:11 PM | #65 |
The Corner Whisperer
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Gurk,
Your gunna run into a solid wall of disagreement, trying to say rolling off or braking in a turn is in any way, shape or form is helpful. Despite it being covered in TOTW2 in multiple contexts (debris in road or re-pointing the bike). Good luck fine sir, your gunna need it.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School Last futzed with by csmith12; September 29th, 2012 at 04:11 PM. |
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September 29th, 2012, 01:48 PM | #66 |
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I'm not arguing with Gurk; he's right.
I was just trying to make it simpler to a new rider so he can work on one skill at a time. On the 250, it's easy to slow to a safe turning speed, apply "constant speed throttle" approaching a turn, turn it in, get to apex, and then open the throttle. Gurk's R6 requires a little more finesse than a 250, especially at track speeds. For a learning rider on the street, it's easier to put fewer variables into the mix. |
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September 29th, 2012, 03:37 PM | #67 | |
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I've done both for the best part of the last decade. In both industries it's not a case of 'someone told me to do it this way' it's a case of various methods have been evaluated & tested, the best way to do it has been found, and now it's the standard method. The method outlined above is a refinement of the original method which takes stopping on a hill into account (the original didn't). The Hendon shuffle is taught as part of 'the system' (Roadcraft - The Police Rider's Handbook, Ask @gfloyd he should be familiar with it) which is the basis of all advanced rider training on this side of the Atlantic. The Institute of Advanced Motorists & Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (IAM & RoSPA) both require the hendon shuffle for their tests. You live in cali, I would have assumed you filter to the top of the Q, it's very rare to be rear ended when you move forward through stopped traffic & are quicker off the line than every cage around you. I don't click into neutral in stop-go traffic, and not until there is something substantial stopped behind me at a red light, even then I keep an all around scan & cover the clutch to be ready to click & go. If I think it's unsafe I'm ready & I'll be out of there before I find out one way or the other. |
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September 29th, 2012, 11:35 PM | #68 |
wat
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Right. So you have no valid reason outside of "someone told me so"
That's what I thought. I do live in California. I ride my bike and lane split every day. And there has never been an advantage that I have gained from putting the bike in neutral. Outside of a need to adjust gear, or because I'm tired of holding the clutch. If you want to disagree with me then explain what advantage going to neutral gets you. And don't just say because so and so says it's standard proceedure. If I told you it was standard proceedure to douche your asshole after you brush your teeth at night, would you?
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September 30th, 2012, 04:53 AM | #69 | |
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The advanced rider training is based on the system, the advanced tests are based on the system, you deviate for no good reason you fail. Try telling Keith Code that you prefer to trail brake, see how far that gets you in CSS I'm not of that persuasion so I'll leave that one up to you, I'm sure you have your reasons to do it, whether you just enjoy the sensation or want to clean it up before/after it's had a visitor... Last futzed with by Whiskey; September 30th, 2012 at 06:08 AM. |
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September 30th, 2012, 06:04 AM | #70 |
ninjette.org sage
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I'll tell them I prefer to do wheelies when leaving lights, do Chinese wheelies when coming to stops and when going through turns I like to get a flat tracker counter-steer effect going on like so.
**** the rules man. |
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September 30th, 2012, 07:47 AM | #71 | |
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At least from my ignorant point of view, all that switching of feet and use of rear brake during a stop is less safe than just braking and keeping the bike from moving only with the front brake, putting only the right foot down and keeping the left foot up either for changing to first (as the system requires) or neutral (for adjusting gear or resting left hand) at will.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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September 30th, 2012, 10:31 AM | #72 | |
wat
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A valid skill to possess, it is. Something you use every day it is not. We have all given examples of why it's a bad idea. Can you give us any example of its benefit outside of "people require me to know how to do it"? I don't argue with what code says cause he describes reasoning behind it. Finish your braking so you can get back on the gas sooner because you want to not only go faster, but because being on the gas stabilizes the bike better. So now, could you explain a reason why you would go to neutral on the street? A real reason, not because someone told you nor that it's sop. Tell me why they told you this. Why is it sop.
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September 30th, 2012, 10:42 AM | #73 | |
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September 30th, 2012, 10:55 AM | #74 |
wat
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Should be 60/40 weight on the rear tire in a turn ideally according to the experts. Not ballenced. h
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September 30th, 2012, 11:33 AM | #75 | ||
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Clicking into neutral (while Alex.s claims is just laziness) lets tension off the clutch system & rider's left forearm (important if you're doing a fair bit of filtering through traffic feathering the clutch most of the time) & if it gets a knock it can't shoot off (more of a problem with bigger capacity machines than the 250) But then again once you are at the head of a stopped line of traffic there is very little chance of a stopped vehicle hitting you. Quote:
Of all the crashes I hear of being rear-ended is very rare, (generally it's a case of going too fast, someone pulls out across the biker's path, or loss of traction due to any combination of weather & tram lines, road markings, diesel, wet leaves...) I’ve never heard of anyone being sandwiched, maybe drivers over here are better/more attentive than US drivers, (from what I see on Ninjette that’s not too difficult) but also because we move to the front of the Q, even if something does get rear ended it's usually at the other end of a line of traffic. It was something that I was taught originally, that every subsequent advanced riding instructor has covered, it makes sense to me, and that has not let me down in my years of daily commuting across cities ranging from a few hundred thousand up to 5 million people during rush hour. It was developed by the London Metropolitan Police riders school, partly to reduce wear on the clutch & partly to avoid leaving the rider gripping the lever constantly, if it’s laziness then so be it, but if it was considered dangerous it would not still be considered best practise & not still be taught at every level from Compulsory Basic Training up to Police Class 1/RoSPA Gold. It does require that you are on the ball regarding your situational awareness (which is not a problem for me) Last futzed with by Whiskey; September 30th, 2012 at 02:15 PM. |
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October 1st, 2012, 12:48 AM | #76 |
wat
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Do a search for something like "motorcycle rear ended after stalling at Green Light" or something.
Good for you If idiots in cars and trucks behind you don't immediately try to ram their car up your ass. Maybe next you will tell me people don't shoot at you from their cars where you live. The point I'm trying to make is a motorcycle shouldn't jump in front of a bunch of already pissy people and then lollygag while they mess around with neutral. And if you don't arive in first there is a chance the output shaft will have the dogs misaligned leaving you stuck trying to get into first for at least a few moments. You say it takes stress off the clutch as if the clutch is some delicate mystery box... What are you worried of breaking? Your cable? Do you do much maintenance on the bike? Like... Lining and inspecting cables. Like I said. You don't have to call it laziness. Call it relieving the stress of your firearm. But you shouldn't be at the front of the line dollying around. And going into neutral in that situation is asking for trouble
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October 1st, 2012, 12:54 AM | #77 |
wat
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Here's my point. You can either stay ready. Or you can make your self an inanimate object. I prefer to stay ready until it's parked
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October 1st, 2012, 06:21 AM | #78 |
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October 1st, 2012, 06:23 AM | #79 | |
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The uphill light now turns to green. Then you have to grab the front brake, release the rear brake, put the right foot down, put the left foot up, click into first gear, release front brake and give gas simultaneously. Almost all cars in USA are automatic, and they are never in neutral at red lights. They remain on the brakes, in first gear and just ready for a quick release of the brakes and a push on the gas pedal. Splitting lanes and filtration for traffic lights is legal only in California. Besides doing as Alex does, I always stop behind a car with my bike pointing to either side of that car, only right foot down, with my eyes on the rear mirror and ready to split lanes; at least until one or two cars stop behind me. Then, if I want to rest my left hand, just use the wonderful Kawa positive selector and click into neutral. I may be wrong but I feel less vulnerable.
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October 1st, 2012, 05:26 PM | #80 | ||
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I don't piss about once I'm at the top of the Q, I don't piss about on the bike in general, same as when I'm armed, its a case of 100% aware & alert at all times. If I think I'm losing concentration it's time for a break & caffiene. Almost every bike here moves up to the top of the Q, and moves off well before any cagers have got back into gear, . I do the basics, last 2 places I've lived have been pretty central locations which don't have garages, the bike lives outside so I'm pretty observant when it comes to it's condition. Presume you meant forearm... relieving stress on my firearm involves keeping it's action uncocked so there's not constant tension on the springs, same as not leaving the bike sitting with the clutch in. Quote:
I'd do one more bit at the end, Left down Right up, onto the rear brake & off the front one to free up my right hand to concentrate on throttle. Very few cars here are automatic, so I didn't take that into consideration, different countries, different situations. What you do sounds right for the legal situation in the USA, I'd feel pretty vulnerable stopped at the back end of a line with more traffic coming up behind me (especially stuff the size of an Escalade or a dodge RAM...) |
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