Premium or Regular Gas

[Graphic Twist]

So I've just put my deposit down on an '09 Ninja 250... I take possession on Saturday!

It's my first bike and I've been cruising these form for a couple weeks learning as much as my poor brain can absorb. But I haven't seen anyone discussing if one sort of gas is preferred over another (Yes, I searched)...

So, do you use premium or regular gas? And why?

[kkim]

search "octane"

[Graphic Twist]

Originally Posted by kkim

search "octane"

I knew it had to be out there somewhere already. Thanks...

[beowuff]

Also, here's the fuel page from the "other" site :P

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_ki...hould_I_use%3F

It's geared more towards the classic bike, but it should still be relevant. I'm not aware what's recommended for the newer one, as I have an '07.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by beowuff

I'm not aware what's recommended for the newer one, as I have an '07.

No difference with the new gens...

[Snake]

The owners manual reccomends regular. You will be wasting your money if you buy premium.

[M-Oorb]

Haha I think that's a little funny that you searched and nothing came up...I saw the title of this thread and I was like "doh! Not this again"

I think it was kelly who said in another thread...the only performance gain will be weight savings from your wallet not being so thick
Posted via Mobile Device

[Apex]

Simple physics here. You increase octane, the fuel burns more slowly. It burns more slowly to avoid detonation.

So when you put a high octane fuel in a vehicle designed for lower octane, you actually lose power. The fuel does not burn as clean, it burns more slowly, therefore you lose the "punch".

So running a high octane in a motor designed to run the low octane fuel, you lose power and waste money. Don't bother with it.


Once you modify it, the best thing to do it use the stock tank for regular, then have a secondary handheld tank filled with premium. Run it on a bike dyno and determine what generates the most power in a safe manner. No real point in adding octane due to some minor mods. Increase the compression ratio, timing, or go forced induction, then worry about higher octane.

[beowuff]

Originally Posted by Apex

Increase the compression ratio, timing, or go forced induction, then worry about higher octane.

And if your doing all that for a few hp, I'd suggest looking at getting a bigger bike... It's probably cheaper per hp!

[Alex]

Two other threads with good info are right here:

Thread 1
Thread 2

and much of this has already been discussed.

Originally Posted by Apex

Simple physics here. You increase octane, the fuel burns more slowly. It burns more slowly to avoid detonation.

So when you put a high octane fuel in a vehicle designed for lower octane, you actually lose power. The fuel does not burn as clean, it burns more slowly, therefore you lose the "punch".

So running a high octane in a motor designed to run the low octane fuel, you lose power and waste money. Don't bother with it.

This isn't accurate. Higher octane fuel does not burn more slowly. Higher octane fuel does not contain less power. It may burn quicker or slower, and it can have more or less power, those qualities are dependent on other things rather than the measured octane level. The only thing octane level is a clear determinant of is a fuel's resistance to compression ignition. I.E., will it spontaneously combust under the pressure in the cylinder when the piston is coming up prior to when the spark plug ignites the mixture. Use too low an octane rating for the engine? There's a chance that fuel will ignite early and cause pinging, knocking, and eventually engine damage. Using a higher than recommended octane rating for the engine causes no such problems, certainly doesn't result in any more power, but isn't likely to result in less power either.

[djindia23]

ok good... cuz since ive gotten my bike ive been using premium.... then i read that reply and thought crap ive been screwing myself over... im gonna continue to use premium just cuz ive been using it for over 2000 miles and ive been ok... its only like 20 cents higher and our tanks hold about 4 gallons soo 80 cents aint that big a deal to me... but i guess over time those 80 cents will add up huh??

[TnNinjaGirl]

Might want to save your pennies and invest in some grammar/English classes. Did I just say that?

[djindia23]

please point out my english or grammar mistakes as i do not see anything wrong with what i wrote...

[Broom]

she's just giving you a hard time. thats what girls are for i think....

nothing wrong with using premium... cost difference isn't much in our bikes unless you're riding cross country or something. premium just flat out isn't needed... with that said, i use premium in all my race bikes for some reason. old habits die hard...

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by djindia23

please point out my english or grammar mistakes as i do not see anything wrong with what i wrote...

You know...I was going to actually invest the time to edit your post and show you the corrections, but then anyone who cannot, or will not, use something as simple as capital letters at the beginning of a sentence....well, let's just say that anything after that basic fact would just be throwing pearls before swine.

But then again, you're the one who ADMITS that you have been using premium gas and bemoaning the fact that you have been wasting money, and then go on to say "...im gonna continue to use premium just cuz ive been using it for over 2000 miles and ive been ok" even though just before that you had an "AH HAH!" moment with "..crap ive been screwing myself over" and "...but i guess over time those 80 cents will add up huh??"

Any more questions?

[Broom]

in his defense, he's above average than most of what you read online these days. i'm super guilty of not using capitals... and sometimes using ellipsis instead of forming a proper sentence, but i still try to use decent spelling and grammar when i can

[HKr1]

^ You guys/gals are pretty funny

[Elfling]

@Banzai: Are we seriously going to start with picking on people's grammar/spelling? Look, I know it can be irritating to read. Trust me. But this is a bike forum, not an English forum. Cut people some slack; bikes attract all types, and not everyone types the same way. Also consider not everyone coming to a site like this will be speaking English as their native language. You may be picking on someone who speaks English better than you speak another language.

[TnNinjaGirl]

Ok, Broom, I'll back down. You called me out. lol

Serious question though. What about race fuel? I.E. 116 leaded? Reckon it'll foul anything up? Thinking about trying it for kicks and giggles.

[djindia23]

hahaha i know its all in fun and shyt.... trust me ive seen my share of internet thugs try to start trouble on forums like this... but yes i do not use capital letters at the beginning of sentences here on the forums but trust me in my work environment or anything formal i have perfectly fine grammar and use the correct versions of words compared to others... i.e.- they're vs. their vs. there.... but it doesnt phase me... its given me something to do here at work as i wait to leave and start my three day weekend... hope you all ride safe... and i will continue to use premium thanks!!!

[Broom]

some people run race fuel only.... sometimes becuase they have to due to engine mods, and sometimes just cause its better quality and doesn't have a bunch of additives.

i don't think you'll notice any difference. especially on the 250s, but i don't know for sure since i've never had a bike that required it. one of the racing orgs that i'm involved with doesn't even allow it.

aside from that... its something like $5-10 a gallon if i remember right!

[Elfling]

I don't notice a difference in the f4i between 89 to 93, honestly. I end up just using the higher grade out of habit, since it's what I use in my car.

Broom, they don't allow the use of race fuel? Or am I reading that wrong?

[TnNinjaGirl]

I know the lead is supposed to help provide lubrication. I assume it won't gum anything up. Not to mention it would destroy a catalytic converter. A bunch of us have 1 or both of them removed though.

[Snake]

Originally Posted by Broom

some people run race fuel only.... sometimes becuase they have to due to engine mods, and sometimes just cause its better quality and doesn't have a bunch of additives.

i don't think you'll notice any difference. especially on the 250s, but i don't know for sure since i've never had a bike that required it. one of the racing orgs that i'm involved with doesn't even allow it.

Yea but will it hurt an unmoded bike?

[SpyderGirl]

The octane rating of gasoline is the measure of it's anti-knock properties. Do not buy premium if your vehicle is rated to run 87, it's a waste of money and does nothing to help your bike/car. You don't get better fuel economy or anything like that. Higher octane is used in motors with higher compression ratios to prevent detonation or engine knock which can destroy your pistons or other soft metals inside the motor. I just recently saw what happens to a piston when detonation occurs and it isn't pretty. Modern motors have knock sensors and it'll let you know when you are using too low of a fuel grade. In short, if it calls for 87, use it. If you notice engine knock when you use 87 and your motor calls for 87 try using 89 or going to a different fueling station.

[Elfling]

Originally Posted by Snake

Yea but will it hurt an unmoded bike?

No.

[SpyderGirl]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

Ok, Broom, I'll back down. You called me out. lol

Serious question though. What about race fuel? I.E. 116 leaded? Reckon it'll foul anything up? Thinking about trying it for kicks and giggles.

DO NOT USE LEADED FUEL IN YOUR BIKE OR CAR OR ANYTHING CALLING FOR UNLEADED FUEL! The lead will destroy anything aluminium inside your motor. I didn't think you could get leaded fuel anymore. I haven't seen it since the 80's and cars built after the mid 70's were made to run on unleaded only.

[TnNinjaGirl]

Lots of dirt tracks and drag strips around here. 116 leaded is easy to come by. Besides, as far as I know NASCAR still uses leaded. And front wheel drive modeled cars, but that's a different story.

[Broom]

Originally Posted by Elfling

Broom, they don't allow the use of race fuel? Or am I reading that wrong?

the series i run the 250 in does allow it. its a big racing org with anything from 50's to 1000. lots of people run race gas.

the one that doesn't allow it is more of a grassroots org. mostly 50cc-65cc 2 strokes and 100cc-150cc four strokes. no race gas allowed per the rule book. probably mainly to keep the cost of racing down. once you start allowing race gas that opens up the door for someone to dump a bunch of money into mods and race fuel to dominate a class. then everyone has to do it to be competitive.... if you just ban it to begin with we can keep the cheap racing which is what that specific series is suppose to be about.

[SpyderGirl]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

Lots of dirt tracks and drag strips around here. 116 leaded is easy to come by. Besides, as far as I know NASCAR still uses leaded. And front wheel drive modeled cars, but that's a different story.

Are you sure it's leaded? I doubt that it is. Lead will destoy the aluminum components of the motor. Perhaps NASCAR motors are made up of different metals that can handle the leaded fuel. I just learned this in school two nights ago. It's actually part of my reading assignment tonight.

All I know is that using a premium gas in a vehicle that calls for regular is a huge waste of money. It doesn't burn cleaner, it doesn't increase gas mileage, it doesn't burn slower, or anything that you might hear. It's simply the rating of the amount of isooctane that is added to prevent knocking. If you go to higher altitudes you can actually find 85 octane which is perfectly safe to use in a 87 vehicle but you may notice engine knocking while running it down in lower altitudes.

[Broom]

i'm pretty sure i just saw some gas stations in oklahoma that had leaded fuel. i've heard you can still get it if you know where to look...

[SpyderGirl]

Originally Posted by Broom

i'm pretty sure i just saw some gas stations in oklahoma that had leaded fuel. i've heard you can still get it if you know where to look...

There are very few cars out there that run on leaded fuel -- pre early 1970's. It was used as an additive to harden engine parts that were made of different metals back then.

[Elfling]

Originally Posted by Broom

the series i run the 250 in does allow it. its a big racing org with anything from 50's to 1000. lots of people run race gas.

the one that doesn't allow it is more of a grassroots org. mostly 50cc-65cc 2 strokes and 100cc-150cc four strokes. no race gas allowed per the rule book. probably mainly to keep the cost of racing down. once you start allowing race gas that opens up the door for someone to dump a bunch of money into mods and race fuel to dominate a class. then everyone has to do it to be competitive.... if you just ban it to begin with we can keep the cheap racing which is what that specific series is suppose to be about.

Interesting..thanks Haven't dipped into the racing world yet so still learning.

[postie1686]

i know of about 5 stations here in the cities that we can still get leaded fuel. i run 92 in my bike, only reason i do is im used to pressing that button at the pump as thats what i need to run in my truck with its goodies.

[Banzai]

It is entirely possible to use fuel with too high of an octane rating and actually hurt performance for any given application.

From an article on Offroad.com:

"Right now in the racing fuel business, there's a race to market the highest octane fuel that you can make. People relate the highest octane to "my motor is making more power." That couldn't be further from the truth.

One of the downsides to building a fuel with ultra-high octane is adding components that really slow down the flame front in the combustion process. You can get the flame front so slow, that the engine is now running in a too-rich condition. This takes away horsepower. So here you are, slowing down the flame front and getting rid of detonation, at the expense of losing horsepower."

For everything Wiki about Octane, click here

For everything Wiki about why TEL (lead) was added to gas, click here

Prolonged use of leaded fuels in vehicles with catalytic converters will cause lead to deposit in said converter, rendering it useless.

[Alex]

Right, but it's not the high octane in those extremely high-octane race fuels that has the potential to hurt the performance. It's everything else the you need to do to get that high-octane rating that also can slow that flame front. Semantics perhaps, but still accurate. When we're talking about readily available street gasoline, 93 does not have less power than 91; 91 does not have less power than 87, the other variables (from ethanol content, to particular refinery process, to starting crude grade) have much more of an effect than the different octane ratings alone.

This thread is the first time I've ever heard that lead was harmful to aluminum engine components, and I'd like to read more about it before taking it in as accurate new info. Seems to me that there were many cars in the pre-unleaded days that had aluminum heads that ran perfectly well with the leaded gas of the day. Sure aluminum is used more nowadays, but it was not unheard of even back in the 60's. I knew that it had anti-knock properties, and I also believed that when switching an older car designed for leaded fuel over to unleaded, there was a risk of damaging the valve seats as the lead provided a little bit better lubrication right at that interface.

Yes, leaded gas will kill a catalytic converter dead in short order, so using it on a modern vehicle without removing the cat is definitely not recommended.

[CC Cowboy]

I got too busy to read the posts on this thread (studying up on grammar). What kind of gas are we talking about? Is it better to use Shell or Mobil?

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Alex

Yes, leaded gas will kill a catalytic converter dead in short order, so using it on a modern vehicle without removing the cat is definitely not recommended.

250r has a strange thing called a CAT. Dont really see it melting like the honeycomb ones. You know from rich mix or lead

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Alex

Right, but it's not the high octane in those extremely high-octane race fuels that has the potential to hurt the performance. It's everything else the you need to do to get that high-octane rating that also can slow that flame front. Semantics perhaps, but still accurate. When we're talking about readily available street gasoline, 93 does not have less power than 91; 91 does not have less power than 87, the other variables (from ethanol content, to particular refinery process, to starting crude grade) have much more of an effect than the different octane ratings alone.

This thread is the first time I've ever heard that lead was harmful to aluminum engine components, and I'd like to read more about it before taking it in as accurate new info. Seems to me that there were many cars in the pre-unleaded days that had aluminum heads that ran perfectly well with the leaded gas of the day. Sure aluminum is used more nowadays, but it was not unheard of even back in the 60's. I knew that it had anti-knock properties, and I also believed that when switching on older car designed for leaded fuel to unleaded, there was a risk of damaging the valve seats as the lead provided a little bit better lubrication right at that interface.

Yes, leaded gas will kill a catalytic converter dead in short order, so using it on a modern vehicle without removing the cat is definitely not recommended.

Agreed on the first point. Most engines are built with the range of gasoline octane ratings in mind, but using anything higher than recommended MAY improve performance in some cases, but definately WILL lighten your wallet in a very unnecessary manner. Around here, regular gas is $2.43 right now. High test is going for $2.95. Maybe only 5 gallons at a time, or 27 (my truck), so it adds up quick for NO statistical gain in either performance or gas mileage for the average car in America. Perhaps in the mind of the consumer, though.....and SOME cars, such as the Corvette, mandate high test due to their high (for the street) compression ratios. Our engine in the 250 has a compression ratio of only 11.6:1, which is rather mild in the realm of street bike engines.

From Wiki: "Many high-performance engines are designed to operate with a high maximum compression, and thus demand high-octane premium gasoline. A common misconception is that power output or fuel mileage can be improved by burning higher octane fuel than a particular engine was designed for. The power output of an engine depends in part on the energy density of its fuel, but similar fuels with different octane ratings have similar density. Since switching to a higher octane fuel does not add any more hydrocarbon content or oxygen, the engine cannot produce more power."

Thus, since energy density is essentially the same, why pay more money for higher octane rating than is required for a given application? Plain and simple, it's a waste of money. Since our owner's manual states 87 octane (admittedly as a minimum), anything higher without valid reason caused by mechanical alteration of the engine or other environmental requirements is unnecessary.

You remember correctly about aluminum. Aluminum was used during WW2 in many aircraft engines, where octane boosters were pionered (and incidently, lead is STILL used as an octane booster in some aviation fuels). MANY, MANY performance and race cars of the ,late 40s-70s used more and aluminum with leaded fuels, and eventually in the 80s aluminum became common place on production cars. Lead never hurt the aluminum of those motors. If it did, they would not have used either the lead or the aluminum. I, too, learned early on that the lead helped with the lubricity of the valve seats, but I've never seen it in print, although I have seen references to the requirement to install hardened valve seats.

Some of us are old enough to remember when you had to choose the LEADED pump or the UNLEADED at the gas station, and pull up to the proper pump. The unleaded has a smaller nozzle, the leaded a larger. Unleaded only cars are supposed to have a smaller filler restriction so that the leaded nozzle won't fit. In the early days, you could remove the sheet metal restricter with a screwdriver, and many did because unleaded regular was more expensive than leaded high test for many years until unleaded became the national standard. Those who did run the leaded gas in their early unleaded only cars paid a heavy price in repair bills as unleaded was initially championed by localities that also poinered (and still use) the tail pipe smog tests!

[CRXTrek]

I use Gold Crown Super Premium at my local Skelly