Lost power while, will start but will not idle

[spareparts329]

Here is what happened and my observations, I would like hear some input on what could be wrong. It was towed to a nearby bike mechanic (though closed on sundays). Before I shell out money for diagnostics and repairs, I'd like to hear some inputs on likely culprits and the extent of the repairs its going to need. The story


I'm currently on a road trip from Oregon to Southern California. After riding all morning at low highway speeds (55-65 mph) I got onto the I-5 and immediately starting flying around 80-95 mph (flow of traffic if you believe it) for about two hours. There was a sort of burbling popping noise that I barely heard with earplugs/wind noise and the bike lost power and dropped down to 55 mph and barely maintained that until I got to the shoulder. When I stopped, the bike died.
I had had some problems with the kickstand switch before and the bike died. I tried restarting it, it will start, but only while giving it gas and the same power issues are present, like it is running on one cylinder. When I got off the bike to inspect it, I noticed a small amount of white smoke coming from the right exhaust pipe. Taking off the fairings, I noticed a small amount of oil leaking from the valve cover. There is NO oil in the window, opening the oil cap there was a small amount of white smoke/steam wafted out

Things that came to mind
Spark plug loose/popped/malfunctioning
Piston oil ring is damaged
fuel flow problem, jets etc

None of it is good, but I'm going to put some oil in it, and see if that helps.
I welcome any suggestions, I'd prefer not abandon my bike and take a train back home. Compassion also welcome, I'm pretty upset over my baby.

[Motofool]

Sam,

Low oil level: Could damage the bearings and cylinders.

Low coolant level: Could lead to engine over-heat and failure of the head gasket. That will communicate oil and coolant. You may be able to see a milky aspect in the remaining oil and some oil floating inside the radiator.

Low fuel level: Bike can starve and die to lack of fuel.

Loose spark plug: Easy to check visually.

Sorry to read that.
If you don't know much about the mechanics of the bike, ask a friend or a mechanic to check those three things first.

[jkv45]

Running that hard (85/90 mph) for that long (2 hours) you will use oil.

From the sound of it (no oil visible in the sightglass) you ran it out of oil.

Not good.

[n4mwd]

Sounds like you have multiple problems. No oil is never good.

It sounds like you may have blown a head gasket too. Check your coolant level.

Did the oil light come on?

How many miles on the bike?

The first thing I would do is pull the drain plug and see if there is any oil in it. There is actually a fair amount of oil below the sight glass. Then pull the oil screen just to the rear of the oil filter. Examine it for metal particles. If there are any, use a magnet to separate them to see how many are steel and how many are aluminum. If you have very many steel particles, then it probably means your bearings are toast. You'll need a new gasket for the oil screen, but you'll learn a lot by doing this. Don't forget to post photos if its not normal.

FYI, anytime you rev a pregen past 7K rpm, you are burning oil.

[spareparts329]

I've had issues with the oil light, it wasn't on when "the incident" occurred. It comes on whenever I start the bike but it turns off when I blip the throttle and stays off. At below 2k after braking, meaning pretty much every red light, the light will also come on. I heard that this is pretty common because the oil intake duct is at the rear of the case, so braking will shift oil to the front and OP will drop. I'll blip the throttle and it will go away. The bike has 24k miles on it, the last 4k I put on it during this road trip.

I replaced the gasket for the oil screen before I left, I'm not going to be able to replace it with a stock gasket at the moment, is there any quick fix like gasket sealer or cutting a new gasket you can recommend?

Good to know about burning oil past 7k, I should have been checking that at every gas stop. I'm headed to the shop now to check it out, I'll be back with news.

[n4mwd]

If you can't find an oem oil screen gasket, then I would make a temp one out of gasket paper which you can buy at most auto parts stores.

If the oil light comes on a lot during braking, it is also a sign that the oil is getting low. The easier it comes on during breaking, the lower the oil. If you burned up your bearings, the next thing to check is the crank. The rod journals are the first to go after the bearings. If that happens, in short, your engine is SOL.

[CWLESQ]

That sucks. It sounds fatal to me, but I will yield to the experts.

[SDx]

Where you at... Maybe one of us can help

[spareparts329]

I'm in Davis, CA. Rode from Eugene, OR to Arcata, CA then across the 36, then down the I-5 where I broke down outside of Davis and had it towed in. It was all part of my summer road trip, just me and my gear strapped to the back, final destination was Santa Barbara where I'm going to school. I just bought a train ticket back because I have an interview on the 29th for a job in a school laboratory.

The mechanic shop was closed today and it is the only on in Davis too. Tomorrow I'm going to have him check the compression and if that fails then I'm going to store it at a friends house in Davis and part it out in the next month or so. I'm not sure if its worth it to put new piston rings in, especially if there is also probably bearing damage. Otherwise I'll have the mechanic check the spark and ignition system, if that passes then its probably fuel. Once I have a diagnosis, I'll fix it myself, eventually...
I'll update when I have a diagnosis and I'll probably have some questions about parts and repairs, thanks for all the support.

What a way to end a road trip, I've had a great time though, I have tons of great pictures I should probably post on the forum somewhere.

[quarterliter]

You could do your own compression test with a helper and a gauge. It would be much cheaper than having a mechanic do it. I would highly doubt this was an ignition issue. The bike ran out of oil, there is no question that the engine underwent some damage.

[spareparts329]

I have zero access to tools except a basic bike kit and I'm still 300+ miles from home. The oil level was just below the window, it needed less than a quart to fill it to 2/3 of the window, so it never ran dry, just really really low. Not that my engine really cared... I really miss my buddy's garage/ bike shop in Moorpark. It would make this less sad and more of an ongoing project.

[n4mwd]

That really sux. I have never ridden a train in my life, so I have to ask, is there any way to put the bike on the train and take it with you? Maybe as your luggage? You'll do better if you have it near where you live.

When you say "my gear strapped the back" do you mean camping gear or did you stay in motels? Just curious.

EDIT: Below is the oil screen gasket that you can print to gasket paper using an ink jet printer.

EDIT2: I have updated my blog to include the downloadable gasket.

[spareparts329]

Trains aren't so bad, but you couldn't take the bike with, they are only passenger trains. you can legally drink on board, so it makes the 13 hr trip more manageable and the sadness containable.
I camped mostly, but also couch crashed at a few friends houses along the way, mostly to shower. Here is a picture of me and a buddy that joined me for a few days, this is at King Range Wilderness in Humboldt county, we just pushed the bikes across this footbridge into our campsite. I'm pretty wiped in this picture after 13 hrs of riding. Thanks for the gasket picture, I'll check the oil screen tomorrow, I hope its not full of steel shavings.

[infinitethrill]

Thats a good looking newgen on that bridge in your photo there.

That shop in Moorpark is portable, once diagnosis is in we may conduct the mobile repair.

[deeno415]

Sorry to hear about your troubles Sam... hope you get it all figured out!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by spareparts329

Trains aren't so bad, but you couldn't take the bike with, they are only passenger trains. you can legally drink on board, so it makes the 13 hr trip more manageable and the sadness containable.
I camped mostly, but also couch crashed at a few friends houses along the way, mostly to shower. Here is a picture of me and a buddy that joined me for a few days, this is at King Range Wilderness in Humboldt county, we just pushed the bikes across this footbridge into our campsite. I'm pretty wiped in this picture after 13 hrs of riding. Thanks for the gasket picture, I'll check the oil screen tomorrow, I hope its not full of steel shavings.

Then instead of a train, how about a small uhaul box truck. You could put both Ninjas in there and take them both home with you. If you have a good roadside plan on your insurance, they will sometimes pay to have it towed/shipped home.

If the engine had a quart of oil in it, then the engine might not be totally dead from oil starvation. There is probably a half quart in the oil filter chamber. This doesn't leave much to flow through the engine. The smaller amount of oil may have caused the oil pump to lose prime subsequently causing the oil light to flicker on and off. It just depends on how long you rode it like that.

But it does sound like the worst case is that you need a new engine. You can find them on ebay and in this forum's marketplace starting around $400.

I went camping down to the keys not long ago. The worst part was having to lug the tent and camping supplies all around. I got a big bike bag at cycle gear that makes it a lot easier, but still a pain. How did you manage with your all your gear?

[spareparts329]

Spark is fine, right cylinder is full of oil, blown oil rings, no metal in the screen, so it might be worth rebuilding. I just rode it 4 miles on surface streets to place I'm going to store it for awhile. A huge plume of white smoke coming from my right tailpipe, what a spectacle, like a funeral procession. I'm looking for a new bike now, maybe another pregen 250 or a gs500F.

Haha, the gear... I just strapped/ tied it all down to the back seat, grab bar and rear peg frame with rope, I'll throw up a better picture. It sat kind of pressed into my back like an imperfect lumbar support. Here is a better picture and you can see all the nasty rope hanging off, this is at the beginning of the 36, right outside Fortuna. Its just me now, my buddy went home after about a week, I stayed up north for about 7.

[quarterliter]

I hope you added oil before ridding it..........

[spareparts329]

Originally Posted by quarterliter

I hope you added oil before ridding it..........

No way man, I was really looking forward to seizing my engine on the way home, what a pity it didn't.

I filled it to the window, before I left, it might be almost out again, given the spectacular amount of white smoke, and oil dripping from my exhaust.

[quarterliter]

Well you know what they say...history repeats itself.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by spareparts329

Spark is fine, right cylinder is full of oil, blown oil rings, no metal in the screen, so it might be worth rebuilding. I just rode it 4 miles on surface streets to place I'm going to store it for awhile. A huge plume of white smoke coming from my right tailpipe......

Oil rings are fine.
Your engine is just sucking coolant and oil via a damaged head gasket and vaporizing those with the heat of the compression/combustion.
Relatively easy repair: being away from home is the real problem.

[spareparts329]

There is no oil in my coolant though... I drained it, checked it, then refilled it. Could it still be the head gasket? I haven't checked the coolant level since I got back, but it looked normal when the bike died. I'd have a hard time believing my bearings and oil rings are fine when the oil level got so low. But man I would really welcome a blown head gasket at this point, is there any way I can tell for sure without ripping the engine appart?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by spareparts329

There is no oil in my coolant though... I drained it, checked it, then refilled it. Could it still be the head gasket? I haven't checked the coolant level since I got back, but it looked normal when the bike died............ is there any way I can tell for sure without ripping the engine appart?

Was the remaining oil milky?

Yes, it can be verified with a leakdown test while the radiator cap is off.

http://www.dansmc.com/leakdown.htm

[n4mwd]

If you have wet oil dripping from your exhaust and oil in the cylinders, I really don't think its coolant.

Did you change your carb jets by any chance?

I ask because, although rare, there have been guys burn holes in their pistons because they were running too lean. The results are similar. I have personally never heard of an oil ring failure in a Ninja 250 with only that many miles on it.

It doesn't sound all that bad, but what does sound bad is that its not where you can work on it.

You can do a half baked inspection of the crank pin bearings without splitting the engine. You still need to remove the top end. Once you have the top end off you can gently shake and twist the rods on the crank pins to see if they are loose. No metal in the screen is a plus for sure. With the pistons messed up, you'll need to take the top end off anyway. My gut feeling is that your bearings are OK based on what you have said.

The packing job looked good. I am assuming that you wore the backpack and that it didn't obscure the tail light like that going down the road. Did your riding partner also have a tent, or did you have a bigger one and share the load? Its always handy having someone else with you that can share the load. That road looks really awesome, where is it exactly?

[spareparts329]

The oil was too dark for me to notice any milkiness to it, literally the blackest of black sludges i have ever seen. Thank you so much for bringing the leakdown test to my attention, from how I understand it, I will be able to differentiate between blown oil rings and a blown head gasket. Now I just need time to work on that bike!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by spareparts329

The oil was ... the blackest of black sludges i have ever seen.

When oil and coolant mix, it produces a snot-like slime. So if either contaminated the other, then you would see that in either the oil or the coolant. It IS possible when a head gasket leaks to suck coolant directly into the cylinder without mixing with oil or vice versa.

I'm not a fan of the coolant theory, but anything is possible.

If, for some reason, your engine overheated, it is also possible that your heads warped and allowed coolant to leak in.

But the fact is, you are not seeing a loss of coolant, but you are seeing a loss of oil. That's why I'm leaning toward a hole in the piston. The "blackest of black" color screams that it was exposed to combustion (fire).

Are you certain the liquid in the cylinder and dripping from the exhaust was oil and not coolant?

[spareparts329]

It was definitely oil, the feel, color, smell and taste (I spit it out immediately, c'mon). I'm going to look at the oil and coolant again when I have a chance, the four mile death march home would have definitely displaced some coolant/oil if the head gasket was the issue. I still can't believe I rode that mess home.

I've secured a way of transporting it home via a friend with a van, so I probably won't be parting it out (sorry to the circling vultures). I'm going to try to fix it, as long as the bearings are still good, otherwise replacement is going to happen. Its going to be a great project bike, I've never rebuilt a 250 engine before!

I'll start a thread on the repairs, and modifications as soon as I start. I'd appreciate any additional links to resources for engine rebuilds, but I think this sad story has just about come to an end, thanks for all the support guys.

[The_big_dill]

Originally Posted by spareparts329

It was definitely oil, the feel, color, smell and taste (I spit it out immediately, c'mon). I'm going to look at the oil and coolant again when I have a chance, the four mile death march home would have definitely displaced some coolant/oil if the head gasket was the issue. I still can't believe I rode that mess home.

I've secured a way of transporting it home via a friend with a van, so I probably won't be parting it out (sorry to the circling vultures). I'm going to try to fix it, as long as the bearings are still good, otherwise replacement is going to happen. Its going to be a great project bike, I've never rebuilt a 250 engine before!

I'll start a thread on the repairs, and modifications as soon as I start. I'd appreciate any additional links to resources for engine rebuilds, but I think this sad story has just about come to an end, thanks for all the support guys.

Love the spirit, good choice on the rebuild, but now that you aren't parting out, how are you planning to change your name? :P

I also like the humor you have been using in your posts Can't wait to see the rebuild thread!

[n4mwd]

Its a good learning experience to rebuild one. Several of us have done it successfully on this forum. As long as the crank and bearings are good, then its usually salvageable.

On my 2007 I wasn't so lucky and had a bad crank. That drove the cost of repair up a lot. It ended up costing about the same as replacing the whole engine with a used one. But with a used one, its really pot luck as to whether you get a good one or a worn out one. The original engine on the 2007 only had about 8K miles on it when it blew (I bought it that way).

Because I rebuilt it myself, I know exactly what the condition of the internal parts are.