April 16th, 2014, 08:03 AM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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Weird observation, hoping someone knows a fix
So, for those of you located in the Northeast, you know we have had beautiful weather the past few days, but today, snow and frigid cold again.
So riding my bike today I noticed something that I noticed in the past, but did not mention until now. When the temperature is really cold in the morning, I have noticed that since flushing and bleeding my front brake (did this at the end of February 2014), that when the bike is super cold (air temp 20-30 degrees) my front brake pads are applied without me even having to squeeze the brake. So today my 1 mile ride in to work, the brakes slightly applied on their own the entire ride because of the cold weather. When I got to work, I felt my disc, and it was scalding hot, so the brake was definitely applied slightly the entire ride (not good, I know) However, on a warm day, the brake behaves like normal, and the brake is not applied at all on my ride in to work. The other day when it was warmer out, I rode the entire way without applying the front brake at all. Used the rear brake the entire time. When I got to work, I felt the front disc, and it was cold, implying that there was no rubbing of the pads to the disc. In short: When its freezing out, front brake pads are constantly applied to disc, and rubs the entire way to work. When warm out, front brake pads are not applied to disc, and the brake behaves as normal, not rubbing at all unless I apply the brake by hand. So, does anyone have any idea why this is happening? Perhaps there is air in the line? I know that when cold, air shrinks, so when it is cold out I figure it would be the opposite and retract the brake pads, and when it is hot, the air in the line would expand, therefore creating pressure in the line and applying the breaks. However, that can not be happening since my observations are the complete opposite... |
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April 16th, 2014, 08:12 AM | #2 |
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When was the last time the fluid was flushed? Perhaps you have moisture in your brake fluid which is causing it to stick somehow. I honestly am not sure what could cause it but I would try flushing your brakes with new fluid.
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April 16th, 2014, 08:15 AM | #3 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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Quote:
Why would it stick in cold weather in the mornings, but when its a warm morning, it does not stick? |
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April 16th, 2014, 08:25 AM | #4 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
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Yes it's rather odd. Have you pulled the piston out of the caliper slightly and cleaned it or see if is dirty or rusted? Perhaps your brake master piston is sticking and not releasing/returning and still applying pressure. As to why temperature affects it is still beyond my morning thinking capabilities. How was the color and clarity of the brake fluid when you flushed it? Did you notice any rust?
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April 16th, 2014, 08:29 AM | #5 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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Quote:
The old brake fluid was really brown and dark. It definitely was old. Did not notice any rust or debris in the old fluid when I flushed it. Only reason I flushed it to begin with is because the previous owner could not tell me when it was last done, so for all I know it could have been years. I just wanted the assurance of knowing I have good new fluid in there now, since I know when I last did it and I track all of my maintenance. |
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April 16th, 2014, 08:34 AM | #6 |
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Name: Ryan
Location: Grovetucky, OH
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I guess I'm not understanding what the problem is.
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April 16th, 2014, 08:34 AM | #7 |
dirty boy
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moisture/water is the only thing that makes sense.
Water/ice expands as it gets colder down to a certain temperature, everything else that could be in the line would do the opposite, air would become more dense, along with the brake fluid, but the water/ice would expand possibly increasing pressure. ^other than this IDK? Was it below freezing at your place today? it was here for sure Either way, i would completely clean and reflush
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April 16th, 2014, 08:37 AM | #8 |
The Corner Whisperer
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^^^ Water must still be in the caliper. How did you flush the system?
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April 16th, 2014, 08:39 AM | #9 |
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He has brake drag on cold days. It kills your pad life, mpg, speed and could also overheat the brakes to the point of fading badly.
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April 16th, 2014, 08:44 AM | #10 |
Que Buenos Son!!!
Name: Ryan
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Yeah I get that, but if you read the part i quoted it sounds like he was braking for the entire ride.
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April 16th, 2014, 08:49 AM | #11 | |
RIP Alex
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Quote:
I'm not sure how often they salt the roads up north or the proximity of the salty air to you is, but rust and moisture can get past the seals of the brake caliper and contaminate the fluid. Also, rubber is slightly porous so it can absorb moisture.
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April 16th, 2014, 08:51 AM | #13 |
The Corner Whisperer
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I had to read it twice to put it into context. But yea, it could read as if Ken lightly pulled the lever to drag the brake on purpose. I don't think that is what Ken meant though.
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April 16th, 2014, 08:56 AM | #14 |
Que Buenos Son!!!
Name: Ryan
Location: Grovetucky, OH
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Maybe it's a built in safety feature to keep riders from going to fast in the cold weather because of the reduced traction.
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Don't do something because it's easy,.. Do it because it's not! If you aren't going forward, then you're falling behind. "Drive it like you stole it"!!! |
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April 16th, 2014, 08:56 AM | #15 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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What I mean is that the brake was applied on its own. I did not apply the break.
I had no other way to get to work, and I did not have time to fix it prior to my ride in. So I had to just go the 1 mile with the brake applied on its own. I can see how you misunderstood my wording. I will edit. |
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April 16th, 2014, 08:59 AM | #16 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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April 16th, 2014, 09:02 AM | #17 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Is your bike stored outside? What is the condition of your brake hoses? Another interesting fact about brake fluid- "One of brake fluids most important characteristics is in fact its ability to absorb water! It is designed to absorb water! Diffusion allows moisture in the air to permeate microscopic pores in the rubber brake hoses and the various seals in the hydraulic brake system. This moisture would then rot out the internals of our brake system if it wasn’t absorbed by the brake fluid. In extremely cold weather it also stops this water/moisture from freezing in the brake system. This feature comes at a cost, which is, that water contaminated brake fluid reduces its performance. But brake fluid composition and therefore its effectiveness can also be altered by its working environment, because the brake system generates extreme temperatures, some of this is transferred off the disc pad and rotor into the brake caliper holding the disc pad and this heats up the brake fluid that flows within the brake caliper. To give you some idea of this in action, should your brake system have 3.7% of water trapped within its brake fluid, the boiling point level of your standard brake fluid is reduced from 205 degrees Celsius to 140 degrees Celsius a thirty percent reduction! So we now know that moisture will reduce the effective boiling point by almost 1/3. There are many different types of brake fluids with many differing effective temperature ratings to handle this event. " |
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April 16th, 2014, 09:02 AM | #18 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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I flushed it the normal way. Opened up the reservoir cover, then pumped all of the old fluid out by constantly pumping the front brake to build up pressure, then opened the bleeder valve to release the old fluid. Closed bleeder valve. Repumped the brake to build up pressure, then opened bleeder valve again. Continued this process until all of the old brake fluid was out. I then cleaned the inside of the reservoir, and then put new fluid in, and bleeded the system just like the wiki says. Continued to bleed until I saw no bubbles. Then filled the reservoir to the fill line, and was done.
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April 16th, 2014, 09:03 AM | #19 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 219
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Quote:
I think that is what I am going to do, do a clean and reflush and start over. Cant hurt, and only took a few minutes. |
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April 16th, 2014, 09:06 AM | #20 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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Quote:
The brake hoses appear to be fine. No cracks or anything from what I can see. |
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April 16th, 2014, 09:08 AM | #21 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 219
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Quote:
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April 16th, 2014, 09:10 AM | #22 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 219
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Exactly. I felt bad having to ride in today with it, but I had no other option. Luckily my commute is only a mile long. Any longer than that and I would have been in trouble
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April 16th, 2014, 09:10 AM | #23 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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I guess I am old school, I take the calipers off and turn it upside down to drain it. Harder, takes longer but I know for sure it's flushed completely.
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April 16th, 2014, 09:29 AM | #25 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
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if it is moisture i am thinking it is a problem more up top in the master than down low at the caliper. The heat from braking would have warmed up any fluid lower in the system. Since the braking did not get better as things warmed up and remained the same it is logical to think that this section would not be the issue as you do not have the same issue on warmer days.
However the master cylinder will not see the same heat as caliper ect... which could explain why you did not see an improvement after things heated up at the caliper. ^is any of this making sense? But on warmer days everything including the master are at a more reasonable starting temp and things are all fine and dandy or so it would seem.
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April 16th, 2014, 09:33 AM | #26 | |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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Quote:
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April 16th, 2014, 09:40 AM | #27 | ||
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Although Kawasaki recommends replacement of brake lines @ 4 years or 48K miles, it can also depend on the overall condition of the bike. Rubber exposed to the elements (sun, dust, heat, cold, snow, salt, etc..) will deteriorate faster than rubber that is shielded from the elements. So actual replacement intervals can vary. Quote:
Water makes brake fluid expand, combine that with compressed rubber hoses and you have a system under higher than normal pressure. Guess where that pressure goes? |
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April 16th, 2014, 10:52 AM | #28 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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lol
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April 16th, 2014, 11:06 AM | #29 |
Rev Limiter
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Probably need a rebuild of the caliper or master cylinder. The bore in the caliper could be bad, or the piston seals may be old and hard.
You could remove the caliper and clean around the piston seals for starters. There may be a build-up of fluid and brake dust that's restricting the movement of the piston when cold. |
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April 16th, 2014, 11:55 AM | #30 | ||
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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what i find odd though is that i never had this problem prior to bleeding the brakes with new fluid. the old brake fluid functioned fine.
however, after the brake bleed the brake lever had to be squeezed much more than prior to the bleed to apply the brakes, so i did the wire tie method to fix that. after 48 hours of doing the wire tie method with the tie on there compressing the brakes, it solved the problem of the brake lever, but shortly after that, that is when i noticed the brake drag. i started this thread back right after i bleeded and changed the fluid. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=169260 so perhaps the problem was with the wire tie method. perhaps i did it too tightly and caused it to apply too much pressure in the system. what i think i need to do is relieve a little bit of pressure in the line by draining a little bit of fluid. and see if that fixes it. take a look at these posts from that thread linked above: Quote:
Quote:
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April 16th, 2014, 12:25 PM | #31 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
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Just from that, it sounds like you have a dirty brake master. Bleed valve or piston is sticking and not relieving pressure. Perhaps, having the lever closed case it to stick or scratch the piston bore? Just the caliper and brake master off and clean them.
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April 16th, 2014, 07:45 PM | #32 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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Quote:
only issue i have now is that i do all my maintenance 5 miles away at my dads house. he could probably come here, but hed have to bring all the tools here to do it... is there a way to alleviate the pressure in the caliper temporarily to allow me to get home without the brake pads constantly applied? you think hand forcing the pads away from the disc will free up some space? |
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April 16th, 2014, 07:45 PM | #33 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 219
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Quote:
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April 16th, 2014, 07:59 PM | #34 | |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
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Crack the bleeder on the caliper. (8mm) Install a clear tubing over the bleeder nipple. Put the other end in a bottle/container. Unlock the steering and turn the handle bar so that the brake fluid reservoir on the front brake master is level with ground. Open the reservoir cover with a Philips screwdriver. Remove the cover and the rubber diaphragm. Looking inside, you will see a bleed hole and the piston in the larger hole. Squeeze on the brake lever and you should see the piston move and return back when you release the lever. You will notice that brake fluid squirt out of the bleed hole. When you squeeze the lever pay attention to the piston and see if it's moving as you squeeze and let go. If it sticks when you let go, then there's your problem.
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April 16th, 2014, 08:10 PM | #35 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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Quote:
I am confused, there are two pistons? One at the top inside of the reservoir, as well as the piston that pushes the brake pad out to make contact with the disc. When I bled the brakes previously, I did not take too good of notice at to what is inside the reservoir. I guess I will see what you are talking about when I do this. |
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April 16th, 2014, 09:27 PM | #36 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
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It's easiest to check the brake master piston first otherwise with the caliper odd you would be pushing the piston out with each pump of the brake.
Yes, a piston inside the master and one in the caliper.
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April 17th, 2014, 06:15 AM | #37 | |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
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Quote:
Clean-up the caliper and seal area first, then re-install it before doing the fluid flush. I would take a good look at the pads when you have the caliper off. They may be toast if they have been dragging a while, or they may be glazed. If they still have a decent amount of material left I would sand them with sandpaper to de-glaze them before putting them back in. Lay the sandpaper (220 might be about right) on a flat surface and slide the pad over it until the surface is evenly dull - then clean with brake cleaner. |
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April 17th, 2014, 06:54 AM | #38 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
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thanks, I will be sure to check that first, prior to cleaning the caliper.
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April 17th, 2014, 06:55 AM | #39 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ken
Location: Central New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 219
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Quote:
ive been watching videos on youtube of people cleaning their calipers, and I think this is the best video. Is this what I should do? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNz00OTRLzM At 13:27 in the video I think is exactly what my problem may be. |
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April 17th, 2014, 07:50 AM | #40 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
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Yes, there's a rubber seal in between the caliper and pistons. When you remove the caliper off the fork, remove the brake pads, inspect them for even wear. Also, inspect your slide pin. Crud may have gotten under the rubber boot and rusted the pin. Use a good grease for the pins after you clean them.
Pump on the brake lever to push the piston out enough to get to the crud and clean it off. You may need a scotch pad or steel wool depending on how bad it is. Brake cleaner is your friend. When pushing the piston back in, I'll crack the bleeder screw to relieve the pressure and then top of the brake fluid.
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