dies when pulling the clutch

[scorpio_vette]

oh one more question regarding this. i'll try to explain it as best as possible.



oh my bike (04 suzuki volusia) which uses an actual choke instead of an enricher, it raises the RPM with the choke applied. now if i set the choke and take off riding, the bike will continue running a higher than normal RPM whenever i'm not on the throttle.

so until i turn off the choke, the bike will have high RPM.



but the couple times that i tried running the wifes ninja, i noticed that when i start the bike and turn the choke (fuel enricher) on, it will raise the RPM. but when i take off riding, and then let off the throttle and hold the clutch (basically come to a stop), the bike will be running at the normal rpm speed or below.

why doesn't the ninja RPM stay running high if the "choke" (enricher) is still on???

[scorpio_vette]

well i took the carbs completely apart and inspected everything as detailed as i could and cleaned everything as detailed as possible and taking my sweet time doing it. also had a buddy over to help.

when i pulled the carbs and opened them, they look like they were brand new with 0 miles on them. but i cleaned the hell out of them anyways.

it's still doing the exact same problem. so right now i'm kinda at the point that i'm trying to ever so slightly adjust the air/fuel mixture at the bottom of the carbs and then taking it for test rides to see if i can notice any difference. unfortunately that's kinda slow progress as i have to keep waiting for the bike to cool all the way.

hopefully tomorrow i will be getting a couple sets of plugs, that way i can
1) check the current plugs to see what they tell me, and
2) replace the plugs, run it, and then pull the new plugs and see what they say.


but otherwise i'm basically back to square one and still am no closer to finding the problem. i'm just bout out of ideas.


i also checked the header pipes temperatures to see how the bike is running, and both header pipes are within less than 5degrees of each other, so the bike is running very smooth and equal on both cylinders.



ideas???

[kkim]

what's the mixture screw settings at? also, did you check the float heights?

[scorpio_vette]

Originally Posted by kkim

what's the mixture screw settings at? also, did you check the float heights?

right now i have them at 2 turns. the previous test run was at 2 1/2 turns.


no i didn't check the float height, as i didn't have anything at the time to check them, BUT (i know i know i'm sorry), i'm fairly confident saying that they are fine, as the bike was running fine before and the carbs had never been opened when the problem started. also, i'm not quite sure if i can see/understand how the float height would be affecting my problem ONLY on cold starts. i would think that float issues would be more constant.

as far as the parts themselves, they were very clean with no wear or other oddities.


if i'm wrong on the float issue, please educate me.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by scorpio_vette

i'm fairly confident saying that they are fine, as the bike was running fine before and the carbs had never been opened when the problem started.

just saying you should have checked it when you were in there.

did you unscrew the pilot and main jets and blow them out as well as the passages they feed?

at this point, it doesn't sound like a carb related problem, but I have no guess as to what it could be.

any other weird noises that wasn't there before?

[scorpio_vette]

no noises, bike runs like a champ otherwise, everything checks out like it's a brand new bike.

ok here is a odd question. lets say the bike is dropped onto the left side (which is has been), and the clutch lever strikes the ground. is there any way that you can think of that would cause damage to the lever that might cause it???

the problem i have with that question though is that if it was a mechanical issue of the lever/switch, then why the hell does it only do it during cold start for the first 1/2 mile or so???

if you don't mind, also read this post on another forum, which sounds somewhat similar to my issue, but i have no idea why the hell it would make sense.
http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?t=85944

[kkim]

in the link, he changed the lever, so it must have been something to do with the shape of the lever that was activating the switch.

with your bike, as a test, bypass the clutch switch and see if it improves the issue, but frankly, I can't see how it would make a difference. something to try... you may have a flaky switch. maybe with the choke on, the choke lever/cable is doing something to that switch to keep it engaged?

[scorpio_vette]

anybody know how to bypass the clutch switch at the lever??? i was going to do it, but noticed that if i unplug it, the bike won't even crank or anything, and that it has 3 wires going to it. so i didn't wanna jump it until i figure out exactly which wires to jump so i don't short anything.

[kkim]

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Checkin..._safety_switch

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cleanin..._clutch_switch

[scorpio_vette]

figures that you'd link to something that i already read somewhere and couldn't remember where the hell i read it. LOL

thanks.

[scorpio_vette]

WWWWWHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOO


I believe i have fixed the problem. hope you guys are ready for this, because it's going to be a long read.


1) thank you all for your help, suggestions and continuous diagnostic.

2) i don't remember who it was, but i believe only one or two people tipped on the correct part (possibly in one of my other threads). i will end up elaborating on that in a bit.

3) i'm new to bikes, but from being a car mechanic, i have on WAY TO MANY occasions seen people use "bandaids" to mask the real problem instead of fixing the real problem. I do NOT mean offense to any of you guys, but alot of your suggestions seemed to me like "bandaids" from the start, but not that i have found the problem, hopefully it will help some of you with similar problems down the road instead of having to try and "adjust" it away. some of the things i'm refering to where "turn the idle up", "#4 washer under needle" (might make improvements, but NEVER make mods to fix a problem, unless you know 110% that what you are modding IS IN FACT THE PROBLEM. otherwise, always fix the problem first before modding something), and there were a few other suggestions that were along those lines.

4) I'm EXTREMELY PISSED at the dealer that worked on my bike, and 2 other dealers that i went to. everybody kept screaming "clean the carbs, that's all it can be". the OWNER of the dealer we bought the bikes from said: "my techs have exhausted all their options and couldn't find the problem, so there must not be anything wrong" (well if they exhausted all their options, then why didn't their certified techs find the problem, but a rookie like myself did???). another dealer told me that they get 250's in with the same problem as mine all the time, but have never been able to figure out what the problem is, and that it's "normal" for the 250's (sorry but i'm not buying that. if it doesn't do it from the factory, and it doesn't do it for the first 4,000 miles, then it's NOT ****ING NORMAL)

5) if you don't work on your own vehicles. LEARN how to. nobody will every be as anal about making sure the work is done right as you. plus you won't have to argue with anybody if the vehicle isn't fixed. cuz at that point the only person to blame is you.




anyways..........on to my story.


so after having you guys help me left and right, we obviously didn't come up with anything definitve. so i pulled the carbs with a friend of mine, and went through them with a fine tooth comb. as mentioned before, they looked like brand new. and even after that, the bike still did exactly what it did before.


i tried replacing the clutch switch just for shits and giggles cuz it was easy to get to and only $20, and so that way nobody can tell me it's electrical. well that didn't fix it.

somebody also mentioned maybe the clutch sticking. well it kinda made sense, but kinda not. cuz if the clutch was sticking, then it shouldn't rev as freely as it does. it would have a little bit of a hesitation. it didn't. so i ruled that out.

well i decided to take the maintenance schedule, and do EVERYTHING on the list from top to bottom until i would hopefully find something out of spec or broken.


so i got the valve covers off to do the inspection and/or adjustment of the valves. i decided i would adjust them to the sloppier end of the adjustment range, rather than tighter. 1- so i would make sure the valves are closing, and 2- so i wouldn't have to do them as soon as if i adjusted them to the tighter end.
so i got my feeler gauge out (0.005) and checked the intake valve, and it wouldn't quite fit. so i loosened the lock nut and just barely bumped the adjustment screw, and now it was way to loose. so obviously it wasn't far out of adjustment. anyways, i got all the intake valves set to the same spec. all of the adjustment screws on the intake valves BARELY needed to be bumped to be within spec.

then i moved on to the exhaust valves. i got my feeler gauge (0.006-i think. can't remember), and it wouldn't fit. so i loosened the lock nut, and just BARELY bumped the adjustment screw. still wouldn't fit. bumped the adjustment screw again........still wouldn't fit..........again and again and again and again..................1 FULL TURN +/- a hair. WOW..........the damn exhaust valves were so far out of spec that the exhaust valves weren't closing all the way.


well whoppidy f***ing do...................now it all makes sense. how does a carb work.

air/fuel mixes in carb. intake valve opens (while exhaust valve is closed), and creates a strong vacuum that sucks the mixture from the carb into the cylinder. the intake valve closes. mixture gets ignited and compressed, exhaust valve opens and lets out the power, and then CLOSES AGAIN SO THE CYLINDER CAN CREATE VACUUM WHEN THE INTAKE VALVE OPENS.

well in my case the exhaust valve wouldn't close all the way, and so when the intake would open, the vacuum wouldn't be nearly strong enough to suck everything it needed out of the carbs. on top of that, it can cause the valves to get damaged by burning, the compression isn't nearly as strong because alot of it is wasted out of the open exhaust valve, etc...etc...etc...

starting to see how much can go wrong with the valves not operating properly???


anyways, so i adjusted all the exhaust valves, balanced the carbs, and then let it cool down a couple hours, because as you remember, the problem ONLY occurs on cold stars.


OH MY F***ING GOD..........remember how i said that choke didn't operate properly??? remember how i've said that i could never "adjust" the choke, but it was almost like an on/off switch, and would NEVER choke under 5,000RPM??? remember how i said that when the bike was new it only needed a 30-60second warm up and it was ready to ride???


well the choke now is FULLY ADJUSTABLE. i can actually set the choke as low as 2,000 rpm.

the bike takes between 30-60 seconds of choke (takes longer than that to fully suit up with pants, jacket, helmet and gloves) and is ready to ride.

i can adjust the idle as low as 1,000RPM, and the bike runs just fine. but right now i have it set at roughly 1,500RPM because it feels more "solid".

according to my friend, the bike lifts the front end about 2-3" everytime i shift from 1st-2nd and from 2nd-3rd (i ride very hard and agressive).

now since the bike ONLY would have it's problem on cold start, i would make sure to wait a few hours between tests, and wanted to try it for several days before i called it ok. well so far it's been 2 1/2 days, and about 6 test runs with each one about 2miles long, and the bike HAS NOT DIED ONCE.



so currently my bike is set to 100% STOCK SETTINGS, and functions LIKE NEW.

stock NGK spark plugs gapped to speck
stock pilot, main and needle jet NO MODS
air/fuel mixture set to factory baseline of 2turns
valves adjusted to larger end of spec range (personal preference. as long as it's WITHIN spec, should have same results)
carbs balanced to within 1/8-1/4" of the home made balancing tool, and STAYS balanced up to 8,000RPM (didn't try going above that).
runs fine at stock RPM of 1,300+/- 100, but after testing adjusted it to 1,500 for personal preference.




so as you can see, the bike is running PERFECT with no "adjustments to compensate". all i did was make sure that EVERYTHING was within spec, the air filter was clean, the fuel filter was clean (i did add clear fuel line and clear fuel filter for continuous visual diagnostic), the oil level was at the correct level (i also made sure the drive chain and tire pressure was within spec. LOL)




now i will be going back in within the next week or 100 miles (which comes sooner) to check the air/fuel mixture because it's probably running a tad lean (as it comes from the factory), and then make adjustments accordingly to richen the mixture a bit, at which point, it will probably raise the idle speed a bit and will have to be adjusted down a hair.






so again thanks for all your help, and hopefully this will be of help to one of you guys.

[Snake]

Congatulations on your trouble shooting. Glad to hear you are back in business. We will certainly remember this next time someone has a similar problem.

[kkim]

cool... glad you finally found it.

[talldrink]

So glad you finally were able to diagnose the problem. You must be really stoked!! Congrats!!! I know it must've been driving you crazy trying to arrive at a solution.

Do you plan on sharing your findings with your dealer? I would.

[noche_caliente]

congratulations! It's good to hear that you found the problem and were able to remedy it!

[scorpio_vette]

Originally Posted by talldrink

So glad you finally were able to diagnose the problem. You must be really stoked!! Congrats!!! I know it must've been driving you crazy trying to arrive at a solution.

Do you plan on sharing your findings with your dealer? I would.

i'll try to keep this short. the bike came with a "service plan" that covers free oil changes, air filters, batteries, etc..etc..etc..etc..

well i knew it came with a free valve adjustment, but i thought it was only for the first time during the break in period.

today i found out that there is another store 1hour away that is part of the store that we bought our bike from. so i called them and asked to talk to the biggest boss there. i talked to him and asked if they would honor that service plan that was purchased with the bike, and he said yes. so i explained the situation to him, and he was extremely pissed. he asked for my name and number, and said he was going to inform the other boss of the situation, and if i wouldn't mind riding up there so i could have a sitdown with the "higher ups" and explain what happened and get this sorted out, but that they would be more than welcome to continue our service for us if i don't want to go back to the original dealer.

he was also upset, because apparently the store we originally went to is supposed to call them if they have problems, or transfer bikes to them if they can't figure it out, but none of them had heard anything in our regards, so he was rather upset at that.

I also could help myself and had to be somewhat of a dick, so i said: "no offense, but i'm a car mechanic. these are the first bikes we've owned, and i don't know anything about bikes. and it sure doesn't make your shops look good when your trained techs get schooled by a rookie like me". at that point he just busted out laughing and said: "yeah we generally don't like to see that happen".

he also informed me that our service plan actually INCLUDES valve adjustments. so in other words....................had the techs done their job and discovered the problem, they would have noticed the valves out of adjustment, and it would have been covered by the $1,000 service plan that was purchased with the bike.

so all the work i just did, and all the tools i bought/build for this project were "sort of" un-necessary. so i'm going to see if they'll re-imburse me something for having to go through that. but for future reference, valve adjustmens are covered under our plan.

anyways, the guy asked me to call them when i decide to come up there for the "sit-down" with the bosses. so i called him back later and told him i'd be riding up there this evening. so he put me on hold to make sure the other bosses would be around, and comes back to inform me that apparently the regional manager got right in his car and drove the 1hour to action powersports to find out what the **** those guys are pulling down there. so he asked me if i could just wait until he got back from there, and they'd call me with what they find out.



at least some people still care about customer service. pretty sad thought that it has to go that far to get decent service.

[tapdiggy]

kind of a moot point now, but i advised valve adjustment for someone with similar problem in a different thread. no one else seemed to concur or acknowledge that option. but, when engine performance is in question, count on:

1.kkim to suggest "another washer under the needles."
and
2.me with "check your valves."

[scorpio_vette]

Originally Posted by tapdiggy

kind of a moot point now, but i advised valve adjustment for someone with similar problem in a different thread. no one else seemed to concur or acknowledge that option. but, when engine performance is in question, count on:

1.kkim to suggest "another washer under the needles."
and
2.me with "check your valves."

it might have been you, i don't remember, but i know somebody had commented in one of my various threads to check into the valves. which i did take into consideration. the reason i didn't do it that day was because of time, tools (had to go buy some decent feeler gauges. i didn't like mine), and i wanted to research every point possible before ripping into the bike, so i could make sure that when i got it back together i had covered all the bases.

if that was you that had mentioned it, then thanks again. you were dead on.

[M-Oorb]

Wow I just read this thread for the first time and I'm glad I waited till now. I woulda been so frustrated with this and it isn't even my bike!

I agree 100 percent about knowing your on bike so you can solve problems like this and don't have to rely on techs who may not really give a poop about your bike.

Glad you got it all worked out and bike is running well. Hope the meeting goes well and you tear it into them...they deserve it
Posted via Mobile Device

[demp]

glad you figured that out, made an interesting read here at work