I'm curious about what brand oil to use

[Alpen10]

Hi, I'm going to change the oil on my Ninja 250r 2006, but I'm wondering if I should use the Kawasaki brand, which comes in an oil change"kit" that includes the filter, washer and o rings.
Does anyone know if it's decent oil or should I skip it? I've heard that the most important thing about changing the oil is to get a good name brand oil.

[Alex]

/moved to pre-gen tech

[quarterliter]

One of the most important things is the frequency in which you change your oil. You just opened a can of worms, buy here's my recommendation. Rotella T 15w40, with wix filter. Change it every 2k

[jeffb502]

Great 1st post. Opinions on oil are plentiful. In my opinion the most important thing about changing the oil is not getting a good brand, it's actually just changing the oil in the first place. I've got some Mobil 1 Racing 4T synthetic waiting at home for my first oil change, but pretty much anything that's motorcycle specific should work fine.

Don't use regular car oil. Valvoline explains it well.

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/specia...otorcycle-oil/

For those too lazy to click the link, Valvoline says car oil requires more friction modifiers to meet API SL/SM specs which can cause excessive wear in wet clutch applications.

Oh and welcome to the forums @Alpen10

[jschorr]

Originally Posted by quarterliter

One of the most important things is the frequency in which you change your oil. You just opened a can of worms, buy here's my recommendation. Rotella T 15w40, with wix filter. Change it every 2k

he is right, this is right along side politics and religion.

i dig royal purple, i like it for what it has done for other things i build, not because of a difference in the ninja, but still, i use it in my bike too because i know it is a step above most other products.

personally i feel 2k is a bit low for a change, but it depends on how your motor has been treated, sometimes 1k is to high for a change.
smell your oil, taste your oil, become one....with your oil.

i am running a k&n filter....it filters my oil. don't feel one way or another on motorcycle oil filters, it was just cheap.

[Alpen10]

Great, thanks for all your replies, Also, thanks for making me feel at home right after my first post. Feels like I came to the right place. From what you're all saying, I guess it's all about frequency with the oil change.

I just changed the fuel petcock and I'm, worried that fuel might have leaked into the oil (it looks pretty dark), so I'm planning an oil change soon and I liked the fact that this 'kit' brings everything in it; the washer, the o rings etc. I found it on amazon.

I wasn't sure how I felt about a kawasaki brand oil; on the one hand, how can it be bad? it's from the motorcycle manufacturer! Right? On the other hand, it's from the motorcycle manufacturer! What are they bottling up and labeling? This reminds me of a great man who said; "How can it be bad for you pal !?! it's home made!?!" Ralph Kramden. And does any of this even Matter?!? I'm guessing no. You all clarified that, so once more, Thank you. p.s. Ya gotta love Ralph and his "kramars" dog food.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Alpen10

........I wasn't sure how I felt about a kawasaki brand oil; on the one hand, how can it be bad? it's from the motorcycle manufacturer! Right? On the other hand, it's from the motorcycle manufacturer! What are they bottling up and labeling?......

Kawasaki never manufactured any oil.

Many of us use an oil designed for Diesel engines, with very good results.

Please, read this:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Engine_Oil

Another Alex !!!
Welcome to friendly Ninjette.org !!!

[caltony]

As mentioned above I also usually use Rotella. It is disel rated and can be found at my local Walmart for the same price as just about everything else. Something not mentiond above but should be is that the 250 is really not much of an oil destroyer like many other bikes are. So most any oil should be fine. When you get to bikes that need oil changes every 500 to 1000 miles than what you use for oil becomes more important. At least thats my opinion.

Tony

[harvey58]

I use Amsoil synthetic made for wet clutch systems. Make sure you use an oil made for wet clutches. You will burn up clutches if you don't. The clutch plates require an additive not found in "regular" oil.
There is nothing wrong with Kawasaki oil. You are going to pay a premium price for their branding placed on the bottle. Again' "wet clutch" oil!
I also use K&N filters. Looked into using stainless steel reuseable filters, but the time vs cost was not worth it.
Your oil choice is yours. This is just my opinion.

[harvey58]

I work at a Kawasaki Engines dealership and have seen how Kawasaki handles warranty issues with their power equipment engines.
They are probably the worst at admitting fault for their problems. MANY bulletins for an engine, yet they blame things on the end user. (You should have brought it into the dealer immediately)
Nothing wrong with using their oil, if you are under warranty and can prove failure due to their product.
Use Amsoil, wet clutch!

[jschorr]

Originally Posted by harvey58

Make sure you use an oil made for wet clutches. You will burn up clutches if you don't. The clutch plates require an additive not found in "regular" oil.

From what I read from the other 250 board this is not true. One of there members road 100k on regular oil. Just normal ec car oil. They are really good about having the correct information

And I think all the ec oil does is make your clutch slip, if anything at all, not burn it up. I ran it when I had to do some back to back oil changes because of a stuck float. I had no problems. I did put in the right oil after I got it cleaned up. But I tell you paying twice as much for oil made me really wonder if it mattered.

[Alpen10]

Thanks everyone, I'm holding off on using synthetic because I'm still under 3000 miles on the odemeter and I want to finish breaking it in. So I was thinking of using regular oil for the last oil change before switching to full Synthetic.

Thanks again for all the advise, it answered a lot of my questions. I hope I'm following the recomended 'breaking in' period correctly. Which was wait until 2000 or 3000 miles using regular oil then switch to synthetic. My bike has 2400 miles on it.

[jschorr]

You have an 06 with only 2.4k?!?!

Wow. Good find.

[harvey58]

06 with only 2400. Hasn't even gotten to the manufacturers recommended oil change interval. Check MOM.
Don't go to synthetic until at least 5K.
Synthetic does not extend the change intervals, it just protects your engine better. And my clutch is not so "grabby". Much smoother at take-off yet will still lift the front during changes.
My humble opinion.

[Olie]

I have used for years and probably will until I punch out, Amsoil and a Wix filter. Truly amazing oil.

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Kawasaki never manufactured any oil.

Many of us use an oil designed for Diesel engines, with very good results.

Please, read this:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Engine_Oil

Another Alex !!!
Welcome to friendly Ninjette.org !!!

I like amsoil, an royal purple my bike is running rotella @3500 miles though

[jkv45]

Your break-in is WAY done by now, and you can safely use synthetic oil. It's not any more "slippery" than conventional oil. Synthetic oils have a closed molecular structure which makes it harder to break apart and able to handle temperature extremes better.

Rotella T 15W-40 is a good choice for a low-price cycle-safe conventional oil, unless you are starting in temps under 50F. Rotella T6 5W-40 is good for a middle-of-the-road synthetic.

Mobil1 and Castrol 4Ts are one step up. Esters like Redline and Motul 300 are technically "the best" but not necessary for all but the most extreme use.

Car oils are a bad idea, and not just because of Friction Modifiers (10W-40 auto oils don't have Modifiers, but still aren't a good choice). Current car oils lack proper levels of additives that are needed to protect the cams on high performance cycle engines that have solid lifter/rockers like the Ninja.

[caltony]

Wet clutch oil? Its been a long time ago since I even thought about oil being a contributing factor in burning up a clutch. This is the firsts time in recent memory that I have even seen it mentioned in a motorcycle forum. Ive burned up clutches in mud holes and river beds but on pavement not once in over 60 years of riding regardless of the oil that ive used.

Tony

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by caltony

Wet clutch oil? Its been a long time ago since I even thought about oil being a contributing factor in burning up a clutch. This is the firsts time in recent memory that I have even seen it mentioned in a motorcycle forum. Ive burned up clutches in mud holes and river beds but on pavement not once in over 60 years of riding regardless of the oil that ive used.

Tony

Some auto oils (grades 30 and below only) contain additives designed to decrease friction and increase mileage called Friction Modifiers.

The issue is they may build-up on clutch plates in cycles that have wet clutches (most of them do). If that happens you would lose adequate friction from the clutch plates and the clutch would slip.

BUT, as I noted above, that's not the biggest issue with auto oils.

Diesel oils like Rotella, Delvac, etc have adequate levels of the additives you need (ZDDP) for a cycle engine - current auto oils don't. Diesel oils are easy to find and not expensive, and are a much better choice for a cycle engine.

[fast1075]

My local AutoZone had Rotella 15-40 on sale for $13.95 a gallon a couple of weeks ago. I snagged 2 gallons.

And I use the Wix filters in my bike. It uses the same filter as many of the older Kawi's did. Well made filter. Perforated metal liner, and very well sealed. Comes with O-rings.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Many of us use an oil designed for Diesel engines, with very good results.

i recently switched to rotella 15w40 and after reading too much about multi viscosity oils, i finally understand what 15w40 means... 40 is the normal weight you think about. 15winter is what weight you would have had to use if it wasn't multiviscosity oil for it to be that thin at -30c. so when it's cold, it behaves like a 15w, when its hot it behaves like a 40w. normally the oil thins out more, but when you have a lower winter weight, it thickens up less as it gets colder. for conventional multiviscosity oils, they use fancy polymers that chain together when hot to make the lower viscosity oil thicken up at heat range. in the old days they sucked at making the polymers and the chains broke down at high heat ranges leading to lubrication failure on plane bearings. now that they use full synthetics they are better at it and don't use the same kind of chaining polymers apparently. the synthetic blends are similar but use the conventional base with the new synthetics to get the correct heat modifiers at high temps. also diesel oils typically have a higher zddp content which can help prevent maring. but all that bullshit about clutch friction modifier **** is all nonsense in a synthetic oil

[Sipper']

The 15 in 15w40 is the base oil viscosity or nominal viscosity before the VII (viscosity index improvers) make the oil ACT like a 40 when hot. If you want a true 40 then run a monograde which has no VII even in conventional form.

I've been running mono's in 30, 40 and a 50/50 mixture of the two in my 250 and they have shown 1/3 the cst loss of a 15w40 in double the miles while having less wear metal ppm per mile.

Valvoline VR1 has 30, 40 and 50 mono's. Delo is available in the same weights.
There are others but not Rotella. The Rotella mono's might be a good race oil but are detergent free so not recommended.

Of the other two, the VR1 will have little to no friction modifiers, like most Valvoline products.

On my 5th run on the Delo monograde now and will also do another UOA when time comes.

I am interested to try the VR1 to see how shifting is with it.

[alex.s]

@Sipper', what's the cp for a 40 mono at room temp (~25c)?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Sipper'

The 15 in 15w40 is the base oil viscosity or nominal viscosity before the VII (viscosity index improvers) make the oil ACT like a 40 when hot. If you want a true 40 then run a monograde which has no VII even in conventional form.

I've been running mono's in 30, 40 and a 50/50 mixture of the two in my 250 and they have shown 1/3 the cst loss of a 15w40 in double the miles while having less wear metal ppm per mile.

Valvoline VR1 has 30, 40 and 50 mono's. Delo is available in the same weights.
There are others but not Rotella. The Rotella mono's might be a good race oil but are detergent free so not recommended.

Of the other two, the VR1 will have little to no friction modifiers, like most Valvoline products.

On my 5th run on the Delo monograde now and will also do another UOA when time comes.

I am interested to try the VR1 to see how shifting is with it.

That is true, but if you start up at anything but warm temps a straight 40 is too heavy and will cause excessive wear. It is a good oil, but a good multi-viscosity oil like Rotella T or T6 isn't bad just because it's multigrade.

I spoke to a race engine builder the other day that runs 0W-30 in almost all of his race engine, including mostly Porsche engines.

Rotella straight-grade oils have a different additive package and the ZDDP numbers are not as high as their multi-grades like T and T6, so I wouldn't recommend using them in the Ninja.

[Motofool]

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

"The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has established a numerical code system for grading motor oils according to their viscosity characteristics. SAE viscosity gradings include the following, from low to high viscosity: 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 or 60. The numbers 0, 5, 10, 15 and 25 are suffixed with the letter W, designating they are "winter" (not "weight") or cold-start viscosity, at lower temperature. The number 20 comes with or without a W, depending on whether it is being used to denote a cold or hot viscosity grade. The document SAE J300 defines the viscometrics related to these grades.

Kinematic viscosity is graded by measuring the time it takes for a standard amount of oil to flow through a standard orifice, at standard temperatures. The longer it takes, the higher the viscosity and thus higher SAE code.

The SAE has a separate viscosity rating system for gear, axle, and manual transmission oils, SAE J306, which should not be confused with engine oil viscosity. The higher numbers of a gear oil (e.g., 75W-140) do not mean that it has higher viscosity than an engine oil."

[Sipper']

Originally Posted by alex.s

@Sipper', what's the cp for a 40 mono at room temp (~25c)?

Don't know, but without question I will NOT be cranking my bike at -25c with any oil!

The last UOA I sampled was my winter interval, with starts as low as 28f on my oil temp gauge. This happened several times, and many cold starts between 28f and 50f with no increase in wear vs the summer interval. Both the winter and last summer were with the 50/50 mix of 30 and 40 to achieve a 212f vis of 13.0 cst.

Have used the 40 during summer only, and am on the 30 right now to see if it can handle it. If straight 30 can handle it, it will be my year round oil.

At 0c the straight 30 is 14% thicker than 15w40, but is thinner than 20w50.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Sipper'

Have used the 40 during summer only, and am on the 30 right now to see if it can handle it. If straight 30 can handle it, it will be my year round oil.

At 0c the straight 30 is 14% thicker than 15w40, but is thinner than 20w50.

Do you have an oil pressure gauge? That's going to tell you if 30 is OK. I'm guessing it is. Not sure of the exact spec for oil pressure for the Ninja, but I'd be interested to see what a 30-grade produced for pressure.

I personally don't think 15W-40 conventional is a good choice below 50 F, so I'd never consider anything thicker. An Ester-based synthetic will give you the best of both worlds - but it does cost a lot more.

Other than less cost, I don't see any advantage to running a straight 40 (or 30) conventional over a 10W-40 synthetic (or 5W-40 synthetic like T6).

Overall, Rotella T 15W-40 conventional is pretty decent from what I've seen, and with reasonable change intervals will give excellent protection in almost all situations (except below 50F IMO) at a very reasonable cost per change.

[Sipper']

The main advantage is that the mono won't shear, or at least won't drop a grade or more in viscosity over the interval.

When I ran Delvac 15w40, after only 1100 miles it was a 30 grade.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Sipper'

The main advantage is that the mono won't shear, or at least won't drop a grade or more in viscosity over the interval.

When I ran Delvac 15w40, after only 1100 miles it was a 30 grade.

That's true of some, but not all. T6 will shear down to a low 40/high 30 - but that's not terrible - as long as it doesn't present oil pressure problems.

If your test with 30-grade prove to be safe (I think it will), using T6 5W-40 that shears downs somewhat isn't a problem. I believe regular T 15W-40 doesn't shear as much. As usual for most oils, the closer the "W" and hot viscosity rating the less it will shear.

The high end Ester multi-grades don't shear as much as the Group III (low end) oils like Rotella T6 from what I've seen.

I think running a conventional straight 30 is fine as long as the temps are pretty warm. A synthetic or Ester straight 30 would flow better at low temps. From the sound of it, you are getting good UOA with what you are using, but I would expect consistent cold-temp starts to change that.

Do you know what the levels of ZDDP are for the straight-grades you are using?

[Sipper']

Here's a Voa of the 30. The 40 is identical except vis which is 14.5
As you can see, very high level of ZDDP!

chromium-0
nickel-0
aluminum-3
copper-0
lead-0
tin-0
cadmium-0
silver-0
vanadium-0
silicon-4
sodium-2
potassium-2
titanium-0
moly-103
antimony-1
mang-0
lithium-0
boron-146
magnesium-13
calcium-3297
barium-0
phos-1379
zinc-1647
Vis-11.5
TBN-10.1
Oxidation-8
Nitration-4

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Sipper'

Here's a Voa of the 30. The 40 is identical except vis which is 14.5
As you can see, very high level of ZDDP!

chromium-0
nickel-0
aluminum-3
copper-0
lead-0
tin-0
cadmium-0
silver-0
vanadium-0
silicon-4
sodium-2
potassium-2
titanium-0
moly-103
antimony-1
mang-0
lithium-0
boron-146
magnesium-13
calcium-3297
barium-0
phos-1379
zinc-1647
Vis-11.5
TBN-10.1
Oxidation-8
Nitration-4

High levels of zinc and phos for sure - so you're good there.

Does the level of moly concern you? That's pretty much what "Friction Modifiers" are for the most part, as I under stand it.

I'm not overly concerned with the Friction Modifiers in auto oils as the main issue - it's the low zinc and phos levels (700/800ppm) in standard auto oils that I feel are the real reason not to use them in cycle engines.

[Sipper']

That level of moly is fine with me, and the bike. I know some run Redline and it is loaded (700 ppm) with moly, without issue.