Zen and the art of shifting

[sofo]

I've been reading posts here and elsewhere about shifting technique and have been experimenting within reason, and sanity since I'm still in the break-in period but wanted to ask everyone about some things I've noticed.

First, I always preload the shift lever when shifting up, and am starting to do it when shifting down for engine braking, I generally just tap down through the gears with the clutch in when coming to a stop, saving 2 - 1 for the very end when I'm barely moving. As well, I always use the clutch to shift, but have been wondering about that...

Up until recently, I was shifting more or less like everyone says:

- Preload the lever when the revs get close to the shift point (4 - 6k for me)
- Clutch in to the grip while letting off the throttle
- Select the next gear
- Clutch out while reapplying throttle

The things I'm noticing and am wondering about are:

My bike like most sport bikes has the friction zone located at the last 1/4 of the clutch lever's travel. That is, when the lever is nearly out all the way. I've been experimenting with pulling the clutch 1/2 way to the grip, and just also just that 1/4 where the friction zone ends and the clutch is fully disengaged. What I notice doing this is my shifts are (most of the time) much smoother, and the next gear just slides into place. if I time everything, it seems like I'm barely off the throttle.

Is this the ideal situation for smoothness and a healthy clutch / gear set?

What I'm wondering is whether this is enough clutch action or if I am actually shifting semi-clutchless.

I mess up here and there and have noticed that this way, the shifts are silent, whereas more clutch travel seems to increase the time off throttle and more "clunk" when engaging the next gear.

Also, I tend to get "clunk" whenever shifting but that's normal from what I've seen and heard, but I wonder is it my technique say, punching the shift lever into the next gear too hard?

Finally, the few times I let the revs climb up shifting is about the same but generally when getting back on the throttle if you were at say, 1/3 throttle would you roll back to 1/3 throttle when letting out the clutch and applying power again?

I hope these aren't too silly but I think overall I'm getting better and like to be smooth and easy on the bike so I reckon asking is better than not.

[Greg_E]

Preload the shifter, let off throttle and gear will slide into the higher gear.Alternate you can get a device that will interrupt the spark when you press a button, this lets you keep the throttle whacked wide open and still upshift by simply loading the shifter and hitting the button.

Does anyone make a slipper clutch for these machines?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Using the throttle to allow the upshift is going to be hard on the cush drive and chain, but it does work well on most sport bikes once you get the hang of it. I got pretty good at it when I was riding a lot years ago, it can be fairly smooth.

[Rafalski]

I cant pull the lever to my handle bar with my hands on it. So i just

Pull clutch till knuckles then shift then release and bam

[Talonne]

Stupid n00b question: What do you mean by "preload the shifter"? Put your foot in place underneath the lever?

[sofo]

Originally Posted by Talonne

Stupid n00b question: What do you mean by "preload the shifter"? Put your foot in place underneath the lever?

Yep, and lift the lever up just a bit before shifting up, or put the lever under your toe and press down a bit before downshifting. I learned this in my riding course and it seems to be pretty universal, but not required.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by sofo

Yep, and lift the lever up just a bit before shifting up, or put the lever under your toe and press down a bit before downshifting. I learned this in my riding course and it seems to be pretty universal, but not required.

I never do this and my bike shifts fine. why the need to preload it? just be sure to shift through the lever arc cleanly/completely.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by kkim

I never do this and my bike shifts fine. why the need to preload it? just be sure to shift through the lever arc cleanly/completely.

The reason it was taught in my course I believe was to get us used to having our feet ready to shift instead of lunging for the lever at the last moment and messing up.

I know this is used for clutchless shifting but I'm not going near that.

[kkim]

okay... good thing I never took the MSF course when I learned to ride.

I've been shifting my way for years without a misshift... dunno what they're concerned about, but whatever works. It's just never been an issue for me.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by kkim

okay... good thing I never took the MSF course when I learned to ride.

I've been shifting my way for years without a misshift... dunno what they're concerned about, but whatever works. It's just never been an issue for me.

Any thoughts on the clutch lever?

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by sofo

Any thoughts on the clutch lever?

You have the new generation? Well anyway I have the old gen, and mine is unusually hard to shift. Preloading the shift lever does wonders for this...and experts have not given me any reason to think it is at all harmful.


Regarding the clutch lever, do what feels good and works...it's a wet clutch, it can take a lot of slipping, and hasn't been a weak spot on the bike traditionally.

Gentle, clutchless shifting also doesn't seem to be all that bad for the bike either, though it will speed up wear if overdone, or harshly done....

So.... pulling in the clutch all the way...2/3, 1/2 (and you can adjust the friction point..) is better than straight power shifting, and not quite as good as fully-clutched shifting.

You don't sound like you are wringing the lil bikes neck, (Yet!!) so whatever keeps things smooth for you should be fine...

It's really kinda a 'feel' thing...try adjusting the lever throw if you want...leave the required freeplay, of course, and be prepared for some significant changes in the feel of the bike...

[smcbride11]

Originally Posted by kkim

okay... good thing I never took the MSF course when I learned to ride.

Preloading the shifter never came up in my course either... Must have been an instructor-specific thing. I've never even thought of preloading a shifter in a car.

As far as the clutch, use it like you would on a car. Pull it all the way in, very slowly let out, and when you start to feel the friction zone that's the pull you need to remember. Take it in just past that point and you'll be fully disengaged, then shift. Less travel than that should be fine on an upshift, but it'll likely cause you to grind on a downshift unless you rev match exceedingly well.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by smcbride11

Preloading the shifter never came up in my course either... Must have been an instructor-specific thing. I've never even thought of preloading a shifter in a car.

The course I took has a different philosophy than most in that they want to teach more than cone slaloms and passing the road test. So the material included a lot more technique and handling skills than others in my area.

Originally Posted by smcbride11

As far as the clutch, use it like you would on a car. Pull it all the way in, very slowly let out, and when you start to feel the friction zone that's the pull you need to remember. Take it in just past that point and you'll be fully disengaged, then shift. Less travel than that should be fine on an upshift, but it'll likely cause you to grind on a downshift unless you rev match exceedingly well.

Cars and motorcycles have very different transmissions, so unless you are using a "dogbox" like race-prepped cars have you never preload the shifter in a car.

Thanks for the upshift / downshift note, that makes a lot of sense. I'm starting to see the reason in always going clutch lever to grip.

[muffinman]

Never heard of preloading the shifter.. and I took the MSF course...twice lol (long story).

I've never heard of anyone doing this either but I suppose whatever works

On the ZX636R, the clutch is so smooth and light that if I try to "preload", I just end up shifting

On the 250R, I did what you mentioned, where you pull in the lever part way and then upshift.. was smoother for me as well + less annoying. I'd have to shift from 1 --> 2 --> 3rd gear in rapid succession when starting off.. later on, I just started the bike in second gear.

[nate-bama]

ok ive never heard anyone say this but

since ive put the 15t front sprocket on much bike is much easier to shift, match revs..and doesnt clunk as bad shifting into first

call me crazy but 20 bucks and a hours time?

[sofo]

I did a little practicing and more experimenting yesterday and found that my biggest problem with being smooth is that I haven't been getting on the throttle early enough and am also letting out the clutch a little too quickly. Not dropping the clutch but just a little too fast through the friction zone. I practiced both during a ride last night and find my shifting is much smoother with and without the shift lever pre-loading.

One note about the pre-loading, I'm not talking about holding a lot of pressure way ahead of the shift, just a slight upward or downward pressure to take the slack out of the lever and prepare just before pulling the clutch in. Just in case anyone thought I meant holding your foot hard against the lever through each gear.

So like most things, practice makes perfect and the problem is still the rider.

Like most things I'm getting better at as I learn to ride there is incredible satisfaction from a smooth, well-executed shift. Puts a smile on my face.

[kkim]

yep, timing.

[Alex]

I haven't found preloading the shifter to be necessary on the ninjette either. Preloading isn't only to take up slack in the lever, it's actually moving the gear itself within the transmission to snug it right up against the next gear, making a seamless shift from one to the other a bit easier. Bikes with a bit more torque require wider/stronger gearsets, and it means they are moving the gears a bit further as well, even if it's only a small difference. For quick shifts, preloading does help a bit on my BMW, but even then I rarely take the time or effort to do it; it's certainly not necessary.

[backinthesaddleagain]

My ninjette shifts easily and I never preload it. The only missed shifts are when I am lazy and barely move my foot.

Now if you want clunk and slop go ride a sportster. Sometimes 2 or 3 clunks per shift.
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[sofo]

This is great folks, and I thought that break-in period was a wide topic.

That's interesting what you say about preloading the shift lever and torque, I hadn't heard it described like that and it makes a lot of sense.

[revstriker]

Interesting conversation! I've never heard of pre-loading the shifter either. And outside of the first few hours on the 250 where I was just learning the bike's friction zone, I have not had a problem with shifting that was not smooth.

A little off topic but I find it interesting how a lot of younger people have never had the experience of driving a manual transmission car. Over 25 years ago when I first learned to drive a car, manuals were quite common. In fact, I leaned to drive a manual car before an automatic (three on the tree ). When I learned how to ride a motorcycle some 20+ years ago, the whole concept of clutch control, throttle control, and shifting was not foreign to me. Just had to learn to do it with different extremities (hand to clutch vs. foot, foot to shift vs. hand).

Ok, now you've forced me to use the term "younger people" and I officially sound like my father. I used to have to walk 5 miles to school each day through 3 feet of snow.....

[kkim]

Originally Posted by revstriker

Ok, now you've forced me to use the term "younger people" and I officially sound like my father. I used to have to walk 5 miles to school each day through 3 feet of snow.....

bah... I used to walk 10 miles in 6 ft of snow.

[rockNroll]

I usually only preload the shift lever if I'm shifting clutchless.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by kkim

bah... I used to walk 10 miles in 6 ft of snow.

Uphill both ways no less!

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by kkim

bah... I used to walk 10 miles in 6 ft of snow.

LOL! You must be older than me!

[kkim]

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9937

[Kurosaki]

I too am not understanding the need for preloading the shifter for normal shifting.

Clutchless, yes. But using the clutch, no. ::shrug:;

[ASecretNinja]

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

I too am not understanding the need for preloading the shifter for normal shifting.

Clutchless, yes. But using the clutch, no. ::shrug:;

Same here. I also don't even understand how early you start pre-loading. If you start pre-loading like 5 seconds before you shift, then what happens if you need to make an emergency manuever? If you pre-load .5 seconds before you shift, then what's the point in pre-loading at all? I see no use for it.

As far as clutch travel and the friction zone, I rarely pull the clutch all the way into the grip when shifting; IMO once the clutch is in and the transmission is disengaged, it's disengaged. Seems like a waste of energy to pull it all the way in when you don't need to. I do the same thing with my truck, but I will admit the friction zone on my truck is very small and entirely at the end of the pedal's travel, most people who drive my truck have difficulty with it, if it weren't a V8 with loads of torque, most people would stall it lol. I've been riding bikes and manually shifting cars for a long time so honestly I feel like I have a pretty good feel for where the clutch will engage/disengage the tranny from the engine. Once I stopped pushing the clutch pedal all the way to the floor (or in this case, all the way to the bar) I started getting consistently smoother shifts.

But honestly, I hadn't really ever thought about any of this until you brought it up. Being an athlete I've always been more about instincts and reactions as opposed to theorizing everything. I'm not saying it's better or worse, but I'm 27 years old, and never received a driving infraction nor been in a collision.

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by ASecretNinja

Same here. I also don't even understand how early you start pre-loading. If you start pre-loading like 5 seconds before you shift, then what happens if you need to make an emergency manuever? If you pre-load .5 seconds before you shift, then what's the point in pre-loading at all? I see no use for it.

I guess I'd say instead of my usual habit of "clutch/throttle.....shift," I start with a little pressure on the shift lever first, then "clutch/throttle/shift" more "all at once." Closer to .5 seconds than 2 seconds.

Originally Posted by ASecretNinja

I've been riding bikes and manually shifting cars for a long time so honestly I feel like I have a pretty good feel for where the clutch will engage/disengage the tranny from the engine.

Yeah, me too. Of my last ten vehicles, only 2 were automatics (three were bikes), so shifting isn't the issue. I've got this strange thing where my bike is hard to shift after it sits hot...I'm pretty sure it's not me.

I think my clutch is a little sticky. Shifts just go easier if I go for the shift lever before the clutch. It's not much pressure, just a little lift, but it does make a big difference.

I never had to do it before, and don't always have to do it on the Ninjette. Sometimes, however, the bike does get a little balky, and preloading a bit definitely helps a lot

[andrewexd]

for me on cars and bikes I always push the clutch in fully then quickly get to the friction zone and let it go smoothly. I guess it gives me peace of mind I wont do anything stupid (as far as shifting goes...)

[sofo]

I'm still practicing and getting better. I find that my biggest issue is being inconsistent like this morning for instance. I was a little rushed and am still feeling out the new levers I put on so my clutch / throttle sync was off and thus my shifting clunky and lumpy.

I'm working on exactly what you describe, pulling all the way to the bar, letting out quickly to the friction zone and then slowly releasing the rest of the way.

If you were to put a time on it, how long do you generally pass through the friction zone? A cone count, a two count etc.?

[rockNroll]

I'd estimate the time from first applying pressure to the clutch lever to when the shift is completed and the lever is fully released to be like 1/2 of a second.