October 2nd, 2012, 03:12 PM | #441 | |
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where would i get another one, and how much would it likely cost? i just put it outside in the 90+ heat. Also, can someone pm me Matt's phone number? I seem to have lost it. I would hate to just be sitting here wasting time on the one day I don't work late this week.
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October 2nd, 2012, 03:22 PM | #442 | |
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The MAP sensor is one of two critical sensors. The TPS being the other. The EFI can't work without both. Obviously, the ECU does not have a "limp home" mode or else that's where you would be.
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October 2nd, 2012, 03:25 PM | #443 | |
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October 2nd, 2012, 03:54 PM | #444 | |
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im not used to tuning in metric... i think its right though, since 100kpa equals, 1atm or 14.5psi maybe a setting is wrong, or you updated the firmwire but not the cal, vice versa...
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October 2nd, 2012, 03:55 PM | #445 |
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The bike was running fine before the valve adjustment, I doubt adjusting the valves flooded the MAP sensor if it ran fine before
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October 2nd, 2012, 04:04 PM | #446 |
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The timing does seem strange, but the video clearly shows a fuel starved engine running for a few seconds on a priming pulse.
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October 2nd, 2012, 04:33 PM | #447 |
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Yeah it is weird that it ran once, and then never again. Or just ran shittier until not at all.
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October 2nd, 2012, 04:41 PM | #448 |
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Random Thought
Just curious, but did you try disconnecting the battery completely for 30 seconds and reconnecting it. The ECU is directly connected and doesn't require the switch to be on to get power. Just a theory, but the problem with the fuel pump and connectors may have confused it. Also, I'd check those connectors again just to make sure a pin didn't get out of place.
Time to get the MAP sensor and retry it.
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October 2nd, 2012, 05:38 PM | #449 |
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lolibater,
I replied your email, to let others here know, I copy it here: The MAP sensor signal is not normal compared to a good runing case. MAP sensor itself may not be damaged, at least it still measures. The signal is abnormal, during crank, your vacuum is not enough low. The vacuum in the intake manifold also oscillates in one cycle. It seems the intake valve timing is not perfect, or the intake valve is not shut off completely. Please double check the intake valves. Other than that, EFI is running normally. Both fuel and spark are commanded correctly. Wierd it does not even try to fire. For the sake of verification, I can send you a MAP sensor, you only need to pay the shipping. |
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October 2nd, 2012, 05:42 PM | #450 |
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You battery is also a little low. less than 12V.
You starter can only generate about 300 RPM as compared to 370 rpm of other cases. |
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October 2nd, 2012, 06:19 PM | #451 | |
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Are you 100% sure there no way that it could be the MAP sensor?
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October 2nd, 2012, 06:49 PM | #452 |
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A quick question for you while we're adjusting valves:
If the MAP sensor is constantly reading atmospheric pressure 1bar, that would indicate one of two things. Either we have a valve stuck open or a malfunctioning MAP sensor. If a valve was stuck open, the compression reading would be 0 as opposd to the current reading of 115. Have any of you others had a bad MAP sensor before? What were the symptoms? If you set your valves to the loosest factory spec setting, TDC or not, is it possible for one of the valves to become bent?
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October 2nd, 2012, 06:57 PM | #453 | ||
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do you have a vacuum pump or something? maybe you can hook up the tube to it, and see if it changes. Quote:
if its within specs it should be ok
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October 2nd, 2012, 07:07 PM | #454 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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October 2nd, 2012, 07:27 PM | #455 | |
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I am not 100% sure, unless I am on site. That's why I am willing to give you a MAP sensor to verify. |
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October 2nd, 2012, 07:43 PM | #456 | |
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The MAP sensor reads about 800hPa, which is 11.6psi. during cranking. as compared to good cases: 720hPa, which is 10.6psi. during cranking. When engine is not turning. the MAP sensor shows 1 bar. |
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October 2nd, 2012, 07:49 PM | #457 | ||
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As far as the battery voltage, 12.03 is a dead battery. You want to see 12.7. I suggest that you disconnect the battery for charging. Charging in-circuit could damage your rectifier. Quote:
If the valve is stuck open, you will notice an unusually big gap when you go to adjust it. Setting the gaps wide (loose) makes the valves not open as wide which translates into better idling. If the engine was destroyed due to overtorquing the rocker nuts, you would see all the rockers snapped off or missing. It wouldn't run at all if that was the case. Just for reference, the clearances are: 0.003" - 0.005" for the intake valve clearance 0.004" - 0.006" for the exhaust valve clearance The bolded values are the preferred values. But if it is the valves, the compression would indicate the one with the lower compression number was not at the proper TDC when it was set. As a quick check for the MAP sensor, @Jiggles might let you borrow his for a test since you both live in the same town.
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October 2nd, 2012, 08:02 PM | #458 |
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MAP sensor signal can not be checked with a digital meter because it changes so fast, a lot of pulsations. ECU measures it in 1ms rate (1/1000 second).
Lolibater, I am shipping out a MAP sensor to you. You own me $10 shipping. I am signing off, again, it's 11pm here in MI. |
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October 2nd, 2012, 08:41 PM | #459 |
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We made sure that we adjusted the valves at exactly TDC this time.
It sounds a bit higher pitched when it trys to start, and there is a depper kind of sound coming from the back of the exhuast pipe, but doesn't start. I will hook it up to ProCal and report findings.
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October 2nd, 2012, 08:46 PM | #460 |
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That deeper sound out the pipes sounds kinda like a low-pitched popping right? That's air moving in and out of the cylinders as the valves open and close. That's normal.
fwiw, Your map sensor likely isn't helping, but get a good battery in there. When I was having issues with draining my tiny battery, I always knew when it was low because it was a b!tch to start. The thing would crank all day long, but it wouldn't turn over on its own. 12v without load means that thing is dead. It should be higher than that with load, even higher without. http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...attery_is_dead |
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October 2nd, 2012, 09:06 PM | #461 |
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The MAP sensor reads 1 bar still, but fluctuates when I blow or suck on it. The bike sounds higher pitched when I try to start it, but it does not start.
We just did antoher compression test cyl 1: 25 cyl 2: 25 the spark plugs look as if they have black dust on the end of them. I recorded some new ecotrons data as well. we are droping hte header some other day to visually inspect valves Is it possible that when we grounded the ignition wire that we burned out the CDI or something? I'm really at a loss of how the hell this all happened. What could have moved the timing? It doesn't seem possible. Can somebody set up a time with me to do a remote desktop session while I am connected to my laptop so that you can see for yourself what is up with procal. Assume the valves are fine; then what?
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October 3rd, 2012, 12:01 AM | #462 |
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I too am at a loss here. We adjusted the valve clearances at TDC to the loosest factory spec, the bolded numbers n4mwd metioned. Now both cylinders have insanely low compression, how?! Bent valves? It's proposterous to think that the valves are bent from being set too loose. I made sure they were a bit tight on the bolded feelers (.005 in .006 ex) all along. Now once they're set on TDC the compression is gone? How is this possible? Could too loose of a setting bend a valve? Like .008 or .009?
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October 3rd, 2012, 06:04 AM | #463 |
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Just so we're clear.
You turned the crank and verified that in "IN" and "EX" marks on the cam chain sprockets line up with the top of the cylinder head. You might have needed to turn the crank through as much as two revolutions. By poking at it, you verified that your cam chain is tight with no slack. You visually inspected all 8 of your rocker arms to make sure that they were still there and not broken or bent or have their dog ears broken. Dog ears surround the valve stem and keep the rocker in place. They are very small. You might have needed a dental mirror or equivalent. You moved the crank so that 1|T was in the window aligned with the pointer and the cam lobes on the left side of the bike (cylinder #1) was positioned like "\ /" and then adjusted the clearances for both intake and exhaust for the left side only (4 valves) to the clearances I gave using SAE INCH feeler gauges. Then you moved the crank so that 2|T was in the window and cam lobes on the #2 cylinder were positions like "\ /" and then set the clearances on the remaining 4 valves on the #2 cylinder for for intake and exhaust. Then you rotated the crank two full revolutions and went back and rechecked the clearances for both the 1|T and 2|T marks to make sure nothing was cocked when you measured it. If you did all that, then the next step is to inspect your valves. There are many ways to do this. The easiest would be to rent/borrow/buy a borescope camera that can go down in the spark plug hole and let you look around. Another way is to simply remove the head and look at them, but that requires purchasing a $20 gasket. But before you do any of that, it is very difficult to damage the valves by misadjusting them (unless you overtorque them). So I don't think they are damaged. Also, based on the fact that you were able to get the MAP sensor to work by blowing on it, then it is probably not bad. So its most likely not the EFI system. You verified the TPS was working. The fact that it ran a little bit means the crank position sensor was working also. Finally, please tell us how many miles are on the bike. You might have already done that, but I don't feel like going back and looking for it.
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:04 AM | #464 |
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Compression tests are supposed to be run with the engine fully warmed up. A cold engine will produce less compression. Since you have not run the engine in a while and have been trying to start it, gas has wipped the oil out of the piston rings making the compression readings even lower. I would not take too much stock in the compression readings.
Verify that you are not getting air into the fuel pump. If it seems to be a higher pitch, it is trying to pump air. The pitch of the pump will change once it gets full of fuel. It seems that you are getting the system initially pressurized then after start the fuel pressure drops off and you cannot maintain running. I believe you have added the quick disconnects correct? Did your fuel routing geometry change? Is it possible to record the sound of the fuel pump priming when you turn the key? It is pretty easy to tell the difference in sound. |
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:05 AM | #465 |
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The mileage is 20,226. I didn't align the marks on the camshaft with the marks on the flywheel. I just rotated it until I was TDC based on flywheel marks, rocker arm slack and cam lobe direction "\ /" . Sometimes the lobes were a little more out than up.
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:08 AM | #466 | |
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Quote:
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:13 AM | #467 | |
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Quote:
Remember that the system really doesn't measure fuel pressure anywhere. It assumes the pressure regulator and fuel pump are providing the correct pressure. If the pump is not developing full pressure the injectors will be putting out less fuel than required, since their pulse width is making the assumption it has full pressure. |
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:17 AM | #468 |
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But the pitch of the priming has permanently changed, it's a deeper tone now where it was a higher tone before. Does it matter that we primed the fuel pump with the gas tank off and the fuel lines blocked by the disconnects? I was worried that might have caused the fuel pump to work harder than it should.
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:22 AM | #469 | |
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:44 AM | #470 | |
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We did the TDC adjustment with the 1|T and 2|T marks with the lobes like \ / We made sure that it was the proper clearance. Over and over. .005" on the intake and .006" on the exhaust Why would my MAP sensor be reading 1 bar, instead of 0, like in the youtube link? We're planning to drop the exhaust and look at the valves, but I honestly don't see how we could have been a valve. 40 hours spent on this in the past week; we are chasing ghosts. How the hell did we have at least moderately decent compression using the non-TDC adjustment method, but as soon as we switch to doing a TDC adjustment, we have little to no compression in either cyl?
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:55 AM | #471 | |
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the fuel pump should not be run with no fuel though, it might overheat.
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October 3rd, 2012, 07:59 AM | #472 |
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It never felt physically hot. We only operated the pump without the tank a handful of times.
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October 3rd, 2012, 08:00 AM | #473 |
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Also, by deeper tone I also mean slower, it sounds slower now like it's working too hard. We made a few changes in 1 day and had a wiring mishap so we're all topsy turvy and trying to figure this all out.
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October 3rd, 2012, 08:04 AM | #474 |
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It's crazy to think that this all started with a grounded ignition wire. Idk if it's just the valves now, and that the ECU and other electronics are perfectly fine, or if it's that the valves are in fact properly adjusted, and there is an electronics problem.
The blown fuse should indicate that no other damage happened right? Isn't that the point of the fuse?
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October 3rd, 2012, 08:46 AM | #475 |
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You guys need to pause and step back a little.
Start over with your troubleshooting. 1. Verify valve clearance and timing (personally I use the non-TDC method). 2. Verify that you have spark in both cylinders. 3. Verify that you have fuel flow with no airbubbles in system. 4. Verify that you have a fully charged battery. 5. Try to start |
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October 3rd, 2012, 08:54 AM | #476 | |
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Quote:
1. Verify valve clearance and timing: - We verified the valve clearance last night using TDC method, but haven't tampered with the timing other than adjusting valve clearance to loosest factory spec i.e. .005 on intake and .006 on exhaust. 2. Verify that you have spark in both cylinders: - We grounded the plugs and got a nice constant blue spark on both cylinders. 3. Verify that you have fuel flow with no airbubbles in system. - There are tiny air bubbles in certain parts of the clear tubing and the fuel filter casing is half filled with air. I've suspected the fuel line since we adding tubing but I didn't think it could be the cause of all of this. 4. Verify that you have a fully charged battery. - The battery is fully charged, sitting at 12.58 right now. 5. Try to start: - Nothing Cranks but won't fire. |
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October 3rd, 2012, 09:13 AM | #477 |
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and yes, .005" / .006", NOT mm.
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October 3rd, 2012, 09:28 AM | #478 |
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To double check the EFI, please do this:
1) unplug the return line from the quick disconnect (which you added), let it open on the return line side; key on, and hear pump noise, and you should see fuel coming out of the return line. 2) also do this during crank, use a contrainer, meaning all your returning fuel goes in the contrainer. This way verify the pump is working. 3) Get a fuel pressure gauge, inserted in the high pressure line (with a T), check whether you get 3 bar or 40psi absolute pressure. There is a slight chance that during your installing quick disconnect, the pump was pumping with the return line blocked, and the pressure regulator was over-pressured and damaged. This check requires you buy the gauge and a brass T pipe. But if you exhaust all measures and still think EFI might be the reason, this needs to be checked. 4) Pull out the spark plugs, and use spare plugs or even bad plugs just to seal the holes, unconnected. Crank the engine, check whether the connected plugs generating sparks or not? If not, either plugs are bad, or ECU command somehow is not reaching the plug. check wires. @Lolibator, You mentioned CDI, I wan to make sure the stock CDI is removed, and ignition coils are connected to ECU directly. 4) Pull out the spare plugs, for sealing, you should smell some gas there. Otherwise, somehow the fuel is not injected. check fuel injector wires. These are just for double checks. I think the wires should be fine, since you guys check it many times. Again, air, fuel , spark, are the primary 3, if you have them in the combustion chamber, and timing is correct, the engine should start, at least try to fire. @Lolibator, Where is the new data? |
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October 3rd, 2012, 09:36 AM | #479 | |
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Quote:
If the quick disconnects are disconnected, how would it spray anything? When we pull the plugs out, we can smell gas in the cylinders. Lastly, what EFI stuff would need to be removed from the bike to convert back to a carb system? The new data is on @138's computer. I can remote into it later and get an email set to you with that data. We did a TDC valve adjustment, logged the data, then checked compression, which was very low, but equal in both cylinders.
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October 3rd, 2012, 09:40 AM | #480 | |
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Quote:
the block?
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