Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by justinswidebody

Scatt I'm a little confused. If you use the decel tab then your cable is on the other side of the pulley. I don't see how this would work as for the decel tab is to bring the throttle back to close.

Sorry for not being completely clear, I thought there might be some confusion about this. What I meant is, I used the Acceleration cable and wrapped around the pulley in the correct direction (counter clockwise in my case since the TB is upside down) however, instead of attaching it to the slot in the pulley where it's supposed to go (all the way around, where if you do, it doesn't allow the TB to fully close) I attached it to the Deceleration tab, only backwards. This allows me to control the pulley the way it's supposed to be turned, and solves the issue of not having enough cable length.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Sorry for not being completely clear, I thought there might be some confusion about this. What I meant is, I used the Acceleration cable and wrapped around the pulley in the correct direction (counter clockwise in my case since the TB is upside down) however, instead of attaching it to the slot in the pulley where it's supposed to go (all the way around, where if you do, it doesn't allow the TB to fully close) I attached it to the Deceleration tab, only backwards. This allows me to control the pulley the way it's supposed to be turned, and solves the issue of not having enough cable length.

Ha thats what i did for my initial test. i decided its not comfortable to twist forward. ha

I got my bike up and running last few days. been good. Feels alot faster, smoother pulls, and louder. Its nice . had some battery issues (not related to the efi kit) had a few broken cells inside, has causes the bike to turn off on me during turns or not down shifting throught the gears. But besides that the learning process has been really good. just need to adjust my idle a bit higher, right now 1000-1200rpms. so just a bit of tweeking.

Just need to take it on the freeway and test it on there now. And i love the cold start, starts right up even with a crappy battery.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

I got my bike up and running last few days. been good. Feels alot faster, smoother pulls, and louder. Its nice . had some battery issues (not related to the efi kit) had a few broken cells inside, has causes the bike to turn off on me during turns or not down shifting throught the gears. But besides that the learning process has been really good. just need to adjust my idle a bit higher, right now 1000-1200rpms. so just a bit of tweeking.

Just need to take it on the freeway and test it on there now. And i love the cold start, starts right up even with a crappy battery.

Good job, EMSRacer07;
This is the first pre-94 bike being converted. It did require some communications between me and him to sort out the issues. EFI related or not related. Now we know for sure, it can run pre-94 bikes. And later on, the harness will be pin-ed exactly for pre-94s. So we will have 3 versions of harnesses: new-gen, pre-gen, pre-94.

Hopefully nobody will convert 1987-or-before bikes.
Those bikes have different stators and pickups, and are not compatible with this EFI kit.

[Scattcatt]

Regarding keeping the lengths of tubing as short as possible, is it more beneficial to keep the high pressure hosing shorter or the regular fuel line when in a compromise? I only ask because the way I have it set up, I can either move the pump to a position for short high pressure lines (to the injectors), or short normal lines (from the tank and the return lines)

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Regarding keeping the lengths of tubing as short as possible, is it more beneficial to keep the high pressure hosing shorter or the regular fuel line when in a compromise? I only ask because the way I have it set up, I can either move the pump to a position for short high pressure lines (to the injectors), or short normal lines (from the tank and the return lines)

Shorter high pressure line is better. low pressure lines are not critical, just make sure no severe bending, and no air pockets.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Shorter high pressure line is better. low pressure lines are not critical, just make sure no severe bending, and no air pockets.

Got it thanks!

[Scattcatt]

where is the stock ignition controller and what does it look like? I have no idea what I'm looking for. Trying to install that CDI plug


EDIT: Never mind... I found it, in the rear of the bike behind the battery

NEW QUESTION: Which one is injector 1 and which one is injector 2 lol? Remember my TB is upside down, I'm just not sure which one goes where. Does being upside down even make a difference? Is injector 1 ALWAYS the left cylinder (as when seated on the bike) and injector 2 is ALWAYS on the right?


also, @ecotrons is there an adapter for the connection between the kit and the computer for a USB or something? I see it in some of the pictures of the kits, but that's something I did not receive. I don't have a connector for that type on my laptop.

I can't get it to work so far. I've connected the CDI plug, I connected the map sensor, I connected injector 1 on the left cylinder and injector 2 on the right cylinder (still waiting for some confirmation as to whether or not this is the correct way), connected the positive and negative of the harness to the battery, connected the power to the fuel pump, the tubing for the fuel system is correct, I've fixed all fuel leaks, engine and air temp sensors are installed... I turn the key and the fuel pump works the way it's supposed to, but I crank the starter and the cylinders will simply not start combustion.

[flynjay]

Everything associated with the left cylinder should be considered #1 (Injector #1, o2 sensor #1) no matter how you have the throttle body installed.

There is a serial port attached to the wiring harness that is used to interface with the ECU. You will need your own usb to serial adapter if you don't have a serial port on your laptop.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by flynjay

Everything associated with the left cylinder should be considered #1 (Injector #1, o2 sensor #1) no matter how you have the throttle body installed.

There is a serial port attached to the wiring harness that is used to interface with the ECU. You will need your own usb to serial adapter if you don't have a serial port on your laptop.

That's what I thought, I was just double checking. Thanks! Still no joy on the bike starting up though. Drained the battery, going to have to jump start it with the car or something lol

Does the map sensor HAVE to go to cylinder 1? Cylinder one already came pre plugged for me, so I threw the map sensor onto cylinder 2. I'm going to reverse these anyway for the heck of it to see if that changes anything, also, turned out I didn't have the throttle position sensor attached, still not sure if that's the cause of my problems but I'll give things a shot here once I get everything fixed

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

That's what I thought, I was just double checking. Thanks! Still no joy on the bike starting up though. Drained the battery, going to have to jump start it with the car or something lol

Make sure the car is NOT running.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by setasai

Make sure the car is NOT running.

Why's that? Too many amps with the alternator spinning? I was worried that might be the case, I'll be sure to leave it off. MAP sensor is on cylinder 1 now, cylinder 2 is plugged, the TPS is connected. I don't think I'm missing anything here... Jumper cable time...

Still no joy after trying the jump... Is engine flooding a possibility here?

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Why's that? Too many amps with the alternator spinning? I was worried that might be the case.

Still no joy after trying the jump... Is engine flooding a possibility here?

Heh yea you wouldnt want to burn out your newly installed ECU.

Is the engine cranking at all?

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by setasai

Heh yea you wouldnt want to burn out your newly installed ECU.

Is the engine cranking at all?

Oh yes, she's cranking lol. With the added juice from the car it could probably take off in first gear just on the starter alone without a problem lol. Just no combustion.

*later in the evening* Okay gave it another shot with the jumper cables, the bike backfired one me twice which gave me a glimmer of hope, then the throttle body blew off from cylinder 2 with a puff of white smoke... I'll reconnect the TB tomorrow, not in the mood for getting frustrated further lol...

[lgk]

Could be something with the ignition timing

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Why's that? Too many amps with the alternator spinning? I was worried that might be the case, I'll be sure to leave it off. MAP sensor is on cylinder 1 now, cylinder 2 is plugged, the TPS is connected. I don't think I'm missing anything here... Jumper cable time...

Still no joy after trying the jump... Is engine flooding a possibility here?

From the bike's point of view it makes no difference whatsoever if the car is running or not when jumping the bike. The bike's systems draw only as much power as they use, no more. However, starter motors can draw large loads and cause significant spikes in their circuit, those spikes can damage electronics in the car. When the car is turned off those systems are effectively isolated in a car. The preferred method is to let the car run and charge the bike's battery for a bit, then shut the car off and start the bike.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

...Okay gave it another shot with the jumper cables, the bike backfired one me twice which gave me a glimmer of hope, then the throttle body blew off from cylinder 2 with a puff of white smoke... I'll reconnect the TB tomorrow, not in the mood for getting frustrated further lol...

Not sure if this would make THAT big of difference, but make sure you have the correct firmware for the bottom feeding throttle body. If you are backfiring, it means you had a spark at the wrong time. It could be that Matt reversed the coils for bottom feeding. I would get Matt to email you the bottom feeding firmware and load it accordingly.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

From the bike's point of view it makes no difference whatsoever if the car is running or not when jumping the bike. The bike's systems draw only as much power as they use, no more. However, starter motors can draw large loads and cause significant spikes in their circuit, those spikes can damage electronics in the car. When the car is turned off those systems are effectively isolated in a car. The preferred method is to let the car run and charge the bike's battery for a bit, then shut the car off and start the bike.

I think the theory is that when the car is charging it raises the voltage to about 15 volts. If the bike is completely switched off, it can be used to charge the bikes battery. But if you start the bike, then now you have the bike's alternator fighting with the car's alternator with different voltages. That is, car = 15V, bike = 13V , that means there is a 2V short. Guess who will win the fight.

So in general, its a bad idea to jump from a running car. However, its probably not the end of the world if you do once or twice.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

That's what I thought, I was just double checking. Thanks! Still no joy on the bike starting up though. Drained the battery, going to have to jump start it with the car or something lol

Does the map sensor HAVE to go to cylinder 1? Cylinder one already came pre plugged for me, so I threw the map sensor onto cylinder 2. I'm going to reverse these anyway for the heck of it to see if that changes anything, also, turned out I didn't have the throttle position sensor attached, still not sure if that's the cause of my problems but I'll give things a shot here once I get everything fixed

The MAP sensor should be on cylinder #2 for your installation. In conversations that I've had with Matt, the MAP sensor is used in more than just the fuel volume calculations. It is also used to ensure precise fuel injection timing.

If the sensor is on cylinder #1, you will need to get a new programming file from Matt and update the ECU. If you have the option to put it on cylinder #2 that is what the stock programming is setup for.

[Scattcatt]

I'll just stick with the car off for the jumping for now, and I'll even disconnect the battery from the car which isolates the battery entirely from the car (no chance of that circuit spike damaging the car then). I'll go ahead and reverse the MAP sensor... AGAIN It's such a pain dealing with that little MAP sensor for an upside down TB. So there you go! For those of you who haven't started the installation yet, you might find it much easier to deal with some of the things by installing the TB right side up.

[Scattcatt]

okay, after the changes listed above, the bike started up briefly (never achieved full idle power, more like a pocket of fuel made it through, that's all) then sputtered out. I'm assuming that's a plus for my connections now at the very least. Several attempts after this though, the bike simply will not start, it cranks, no pops or anything, no leaks, no kinks in the hoses, the pump works fine (you can hear it working) no back fires, and the TB is holding fast the way that it should.

@ecotrons I'm having issues with ProCAL, I have tried windows XP service pack 2, 3, and windows 7 for compatibility just to see if any would work, I've moved the .A2L and the .cal files over into the program folder but I still don't have the menu on the left side. Is there something else I could be doing wrong?

Ha! Got it! 3rd or 4th uninstall/reinstall somehow managed to get it to work lol!

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

okay, after the changes listed above, the bike started up briefly (never achieved full idle power, more like a pocket of fuel made it through, that's all) then sputtered out. I'm assuming that's a plus for my connections now at the very least. Several attempts after this though, the bike simply will not start, it cranks, no pops or anything, no leaks, no kinks in the hoses, the pump works fine (you can hear it working) no back fires, an the TB is holding fast, the way that it should.

@ecotrons I'm having issues with ProCAL, I have tried windows XP service pack 2, 3, and windows 7 for compatibility just to see if any would work, I've moved the .A2L and the .cal files over into the program folder but I still don't have the menu on the left side. Is there something else I could be doing wrong?

Scattcatt,
Sorry to reply a little late, not on this forum for one day. Next time anybody has some trouble, and want a fast reply, please shoot me an email to info@ecotrons.com.

From what you have so far, it looks like the Pickup / MAP sensor are not synchronized. Meaning the ECU could not detect which is the cylinder #1. It could cause misfire: meaning your ignition timing is totally wrong. That's why you can not start. MAP sensor is used to detect cylinder #1. I need to double check what software is in your ECU.

Now please log some ProCAL data for me. For ProCAL to work, you need to load A2L and CAL file into ProCAL (click "open" in menu... and reading the manual always helps).

Matt

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

@ecotrons I'm having issues with ProCAL, I have tried windows XP service pack 2, 3, and windows 7 for compatibility just to see if any would work, I've moved the .A2L and the .cal files over into the program folder but I still don't have the menu on the left side. Is there something else I could be doing wrong?

Ha! Got it! 3rd or 4th uninstall/reinstall somehow managed to get it to work lol!

Here is a link to a Youtube video: tutorial of ProCAL,
http://youtu.be/Ms8fQm8bZiE

[Scattcatt]

Mission Accomplished! Thanks a ton @ecotrons for the email help! Turns out if you have the MAP on cylinder 2 (since the TB is upside down) the tubing used to connect the TB to the MAP sensor can hit the screw used to sync cylinder 1 and 2, preventing the throttle from fully closing. Mine was stuck at about 16% open as I found out through ProCAL, this didn't allow the engine to start. Once I moved the MAP sensor tubing out of the way slightly (it's not kinked, I'd imagine kinking the tubing would be bad) the engine roared to life on the first crank. Going to put the seat on and give things a test run around the neighborhood then fix that rich spot down on the low end rpm (she pops when the throttle is let off) overall, very satisfied so far!

*Later* The system is on the bike and working. Just got home from the first test run. The bike starts up great! No problems there whatsoever, the idle is perfect per the tach on the dashboard (1400-1500 on ProCAL though, no worries here though) The power curve is very wild though, there is a pretty good lag from idle to anything over about 25% throttle which I'm assuming is because it might be running rich. Trying to blip the throttle on downshifts is not possible with this throttle lag, perhaps with the oxygen sensors this will auto correct, but I'm going to check it out on ProCAL and see if I can fix it myself for now. As for any additional power, for now it feels like there's less power than with the carbs, I'm hoping after fixing the power curve up this will change. This power curve also caused the engine to die at stop signs, I got around this later by carefully manipulating the throttle to keep it alive, but this is an obvious problem. I'll let you all know how it goes after I fiddle with ProCAL

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Mission Accomplished! Thanks a ton @ecotrons for the email help! Turns out if you have the MAP on cylinder 2 (since the TB is upside down) the tubing used to connect the TB to the MAP sensor can hit the screw used to sync cylinder 1 and 2, preventing the throttle from fully closing. Mine was stuck at about 16% open as I found out through ProCAL, this didn't allow the engine to start. Once I moved the MAP sensor tubing out of the way slightly (it's not kinked, I'd imagine kinking the tubing would be bad) the engine roared to life on the first crank. Going to put the seat on and give things a test run around the neighborhood then fix that rich spot down on the low end rpm (she pops when the throttle is let off) overall, very satisfied so far!

*Later* The system is on the bike and working. Just got home from the first test run. The bike starts up great! No problems there whatsoever, the idle is perfect per the tach on the dashboard (1400-1500 on ProCAL though, no worries here though) The power curve is very wild though, there is a pretty good lag from idle to anything over about 25% throttle which I'm assuming is because it might be running rich. Trying to blip the throttle on downshifts is not possible with this throttle lag, perhaps with the oxygen sensors this will auto correct, but I'm going to check it out on ProCAL and see if I can fix it myself for now. As for any additional power, for now it feels like there's less power than with the carbs, I'm hoping after fixing the power curve up this will change. This power curve also caused the engine to die at stop signs, I got around this later by carefully manipulating the throttle to keep it alive, but this is an obvious problem. I'll let you all know how it goes after I fiddle with ProCAL

I'm having the same low end problems as you. I don't have it logged with procal yet (tonight). If you find the solution, post it up here.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by flynjay

I'm having the same low end problems as you. I don't have it logged with procal yet (tonight). If you find the solution, post it up here.

Did you try the eco/rich switch just for the heck of it? That's one thing I didn't think about, since the mapping for rich is obviously going to be richer than normal, if the performance decreases then we'd be able to say for certain that our problem is being too rich. (though I'd imagine the popping, smell of gas, and light smoke are already enough signs that it's a rich problem). I'll give it a shot later tonight for the heck of it though. I'll be sure to post my findings up (if any) through ProCAL when I get to it later tonight, I have class during the week so my progress may be minimal due to time constraints

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Did you try the eco/rich switch just for the heck of it? That's one thing I didn't think about, since the mapping for rich is obviously going to be richer than normal, if the performance decreases then we'd be able to say for certain that our problem is being too rich. (though I'd imagine the popping, smell of gas, and light smoke are already enough signs that it's a rich problem). I'll give it a shot later tonight for the heck of it though. I'll be sure to post my findings up (if any) through ProCAL when I get to it later tonight, I have class during the week so my progress may be minimal due to time constraints

When I tuned mine to run well in open-loop I had to richen it up to eliminate the problem down low. Once I got the O2 sensors installed I reduced the enrichening factors at the engine temperatures the O2 sensors would be operating.

Looking at the procal recorded data will tell you if you are rich or not. If the o2 sensor output is constantly reading above 450mv then you are rich. The O2 sensor should be bouncing high-low the entire time.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by flynjay

When I tuned mine to run well in open-loop I had to richen it up to eliminate the problem down low. Once I got the O2 sensors installed I reduced the enrichening factors at the engine temperatures the O2 sensors would be operating.

Looking at the procal recorded data will tell you if you are rich or not. If the o2 sensor output is constantly reading above 450mv then you are rich. The O2 sensor should be bouncing high-low the entire time.

That's the thing, I'm not running with the 02 sensors in yet, planning on getting those installed this weekend, so it's still a bit of guess work on how I'm running right now. Thanks for that heads up though, at least now I'll know for when I get them installed

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

That's the thing, I'm not running with the 02 sensors in yet, planning on getting those installed this weekend, so it's still a bit of guess work on how I'm running right now. Thanks for that heads up though, at least now I'll know for when I get them installed

OK then. (without sensors installed) I initially noticed that the bike was first started it ran pretty well. Then it would get progressively worse as it warmed up. You will notice that the only variable that changes in that time frame is the post start warm-up factor; it progressively reduces to 0.0 as the temperature gets to 70 deg.

So I approximated at what engine temperature it started running poorly and adjusted the warmup factor to stay at that value for the rest of the table. This effectively made the whole map richer for the warm temperatures. The bike was perfeclty ridable like that, but mileage was poor ~35 mpg.

With O2 sensors installed, I expected the warm running problems to be effectively eliminated but I need to do a little tuning to get it right. I will post back when I've worked a solution.

[setasai]

I havent installed mine yet... soon soon been super busy... but I thought the stock map provided by ecotrons was supposed to be pretty stable and the O2 sensors are supposed to help fix all these rough situations by auto adjusting.

Is it really necessary to mess around w/ the map or can you just run it a few times and let the O2 auto adjustments fix itself?

[justinswidebody]

I have emailed Matt recordings of my bike running. My bike is running rich being that just at idle the o2 sensor reads over 800. Hopefully Matt will get back with me soon.

[lgk]

Where did you guys end up putting the engine temp sensor?

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by lgk

Where did you guys end up putting the engine temp sensor?

I put it where @forbitel put it, right on top of the engine. I took one of the screws out of that green cap thing on the top of the engine cover (not the cover bolts themselves) http://www.flickr.com/photos/forbite...4273/lightbox/

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by lgk

Where did you guys end up putting the engine temp sensor?

I put mine on the one head bolt that is in front of the cam chain tunnel.

[Scattcatt]

Alright, out working on tuning the ECU and I got some good results from doing only one basic thing. It solved my stalling issues for the most part it seems (rpms did dip low, but only ONCE while I was test driving) All I did was change the fuel cut off rpm from whatever it originally was (1820 or something like that) and set it to 15300 for all of the cells. Since our engines normally cannot rev that high to begin with, this means that the fuel is always flowing at all rpms similar to the carbs we're all used to. With this I can now blip the throttle as I downshift, and the engine is more stable when coming to a stop or disconnecting power to the wheel in general (aka, disengaging the clutch, or putting it in neutral, if that's your thing). I suppose this is not necessary, you could simply increase the number slightly if you are having stalling issues so the engine will come back to life earlier which should also correct for the stall. However, this may not allow you to blip the throttle depending on where you set this rpm. Overall with the change, I'm very pleased! I feel more confident on the road and with the system as a whole, more than enough for me to even ride the bike to class tomorrow and show her off to my friends! Wait... What friends...? Well that's besides the point... I'm very excited to continue working with ProCAL now that I have a tiny grasp of what I'm doing, and I'll post back once I get her running even more smoothly. So far though, by far my favorite benefit of this product is when the rpms are about 3 or 4k and in 6th and then flooring it. Do you hear that? Of course you don't! That's the sound of no more popping! shout out to @ecotrons for helping me out with ProCAL, I can only imagine how much time we're probably all taking up of you with our needy emails all of my emails have been responded to in an extremely timely manner! And thanks for developing this kit! I'm getting more and more eager as I learn to see what I can make it do! It's only a matter of time before things are as close to perfect as humanly possible!

[flynjay]

Good going scattcat. I may try that.

[setasai]

Hey I just started the install but got stuck installing the throttle body. The air filter side doesnt fit the throttlebody even with the included hose. Did anybody use the stock airbox? If you used pod filters, what part did you find worked best? If you could include also where you purchased it that'd help me out as well. Thanks.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by setasai

Hey I just started the install but got stuck installing the throttle body. The air filter side doesnt fit the throttlebody even with the included hose. Did anybody use the stock airbox? If you used pod filters, what part did you find worked best? If you could include also where you purchased it that'd help me out as well. Thanks.

You are installing the TB rightside up if I remember a post you put up a ways back, right? Just asking out of curiosity... I have K&N pods on an upside down TB, with the boots that came with the kit that are meant to attach to the stock air box, my pods extended a little far out and hit the frame, which didn't allow the TB to seat right in the boots on the engine. I just took one of the airbox boots and cut it in half, then I used these two new half length boots for my pods an it worked out perfect! No outside purchases necessary I just had to file the inside of one of the halves of the boots to get it to fit on the TB since the normal inside diameter of the boots in my kit wouldn't fit over the TB.

[setasai]

@Scattcatt Interesting. Did the boots fit snugly? The adapter fits into the airbox boots a little too loose. I can tighten the clamps all the way and still slide the adapter out no problem. I know after everything is put together, there isnt room for movement so I'm not worried about it falling out but I'm concerned about air leaks. I wonder if I can just seal it up with silicone caulking or something. Heh. There isnt much pressure there so I dont think it's that big of an issue.

Ideas?

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by setasai

@Scattcatt Interesting. Did the boots fit snugly? The adapter fits into the airbox boots a little too loose. I can tighten the clamps all the way and still slide the adapter out no problem. I know after everything is put together, there isnt room for movement so I'm not worried about it falling out but I'm concerned about air leaks. I wonder if I can just seal it up with silicone caulking or something. Heh. There isnt much pressure there so I dont think it's that big of an issue.

Ideas?

Personally I have zero experience with the stock airboxes, I don't even have a clue what they look like. When I bought mine it already had pods. The boots on my filters fit very snugly over the boots that came with the kit. The hose clamp almost isn't even necessary so maybe I lucked out. I'm trying to find some pictures of the stock air box and I'll see if I can give you any ideas. Silicone would definitely work, but I'm sure you wouldn't need me to tell you that it could be messy and a hassle in the event you ever need to take it out. What if you just wrapped duct tape or electrical tape (to make it look slightly less ghetto) over the kit's boots to make the outside diameter bigger? Then the clamps could do their job at making a better, and more secure seal.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

Did the boots fit snugly? The adapter fits into the airbox boots a little too loose. I can tighten the clamps all the way and still slide the adapter out no problem.

I haven't gotten that far yet, I am still working on the cable mounts and pulley. However, I did notice that the airbox tubes are bigger on one end than the other. You might check to make sure you have them going the right way.