Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[setasai]

@n4mwd Yea they're on the right way. Those adapters are shaved on one side to fit the throttlebody. I'm beginning to wonder where ecotrons got the design for the throttlebody to start with. A lot of random modifications because of it. Had they used the kawasaki throttlebody as a template, I'm sure with some mold adjustments, they'd have one almost exactly the same.

In anycase, @Scattcatt you gave me an idea. Just like the header side, maybe i can find a piece of rubber/rubber band type thing that will fit over the boots and snug it up a little bit. Thanks!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

@n4mwd Yea they're on the right way. Those adapters are shaved on one side to fit the throttlebody. I'm beginning to wonder where ecotrons got the design for the throttlebody to start with. A lot of random modifications because of it. Had they used the kawasaki throttlebody as a template, I'm sure with some mold adjustments, they'd have one almost exactly the same.

In anycase, @Scattcatt you gave me an idea. Just like the header side, maybe i can find a piece of rubber/rubber band type thing that will fit over the boots and snug it up a little bit. Thanks!

Bicycle inner tube perhaps? I think that's what ecotrons used on the engine side.

Yeah, had I known it would be this much work to get the throttle body right, I probably wouldn't have gotten the kit. I have spent over $200 at last count buying tools and materials to make the fuel rail, cable bracket and pulley. It would have been a lot cheaper to just buy a UK throttle body and toss the ecotrons one. Actually, the customization that ecotrons has already done probably cost him more than making a custom throttle body for the ninja.

Oh, BTW, I got a pair of those fuel disconnects. I think they will work out just fine. They cut the fuel off in both directions which is great. They also have recessed disconnect buttons to prevent accidental disconnects.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Bicycle inner tube perhaps? I think that's what ecotrons used on the engine side.

That's not a bad idea, I should go check the sizing on my mountain bike tires and see if that would fit. I was also just considering going to the hardware store and cutting myself a piece of tubing...

Yeah, had I known it would be this much work to get the throttle body right, I probably wouldn't have gotten the kit. I have spent over $200 at last count buying tools and materials to make the fuel rail, cable bracket and pulley. It would have been a lot cheaper to just buy a UK throttle body and toss the ecotrons one. Actually, the customization that ecotrons has already done probably cost him more than making a custom throttle body for the ninja.

Well I wouldnt bash the kit that much. I think overall it was well put together. The harness, the ECU, and the responsiveness of Matt at ecotrons is well within satisfaction as far as I am concerned.

The throttlebody does have some quirks but that was why there is the option of purchasing a used kawasaki OEM throttlebody. Even then, it was an adaptation for other engines, not the 250R specifically so I can see why they went this route.

Let's also not forget that there isnt any other company that would be willing to help us out with all this. Greg spent significantly more money piecing it together from all over. We've got the easy part. I think if they can find a way to source OEM throttlebodies, the kit would be easier. Maybe even include a throttle cable.

Oh, BTW, I got a pair of those fuel disconnects. I think they will work out just fine. They cut the fuel off in both directions which is great. They also have recessed disconnect buttons to prevent accidental disconnects.

That's pretty neat. You should suggest that part to Matt and have it included in further kits. I wont be needing it since I have a CA model w/ the return port built in, but it would be nice to have that available.

You've spent a lot of money doing custom parts everywhere. Why dont you just put the kit together on the bike and then swap things out as you go? Who knows, maybe it all comes together well enough that you wont care. Unless of course you enjoy fiddling around with these parts.

At first, I was worried that Jiggles and I would be the only takers. I'm glad that so many of you have joined in but remember, we're pioneers. After all these installs, the only people with custom EFI will be us... and a few people like Greg who are completely looney to take the whole project on himself.

[n4mwd]

I'm sure that Greg knew what he was getting into before he started. In my case, I don't want to start working on the bike until I'm satisfied that everything is right. The throttle body with sharp bent cables and hooking cable stops under tabs is really not acceptable.

I'm OK with the bolted together TB though. I don't see that as a problem. I'm just puzzled as to why he went that way instead of just making the right part in the first place.

I spent most of today working with CAD software designing the necessary parts to bring the throttle body up to spec. I finally got around to grinding off the old pulley that is too small with the holes in the wrong place, and am installing the new one.

However, don't get me wrong. I still like the kit. Its definitely a good shortcut to the final product. I just didn't expect to have to do this much work to make it right.

When I do finally get it right, I'll post the CAD drawings so others don't have to sweat over it as much.

[setasai]

Coolio. Sounds good! Cant wait to see your final product. Feel free to bounce ideas off me.

[flynjay]

I pretty much installed the kit as is except for a few minor things.
1. I used a slightly smaller high pressure fuel line that fit the fittings (had on hand).
2. I changed the two y fittings to tee's.
3. I added a 90 degree fitting to the output of the fuel pump to better route the fuel lines.
4. I added fuel shut-off ball valves to the fuel tap outlets.
5. I shortened the outer sleeve to the throttle cable (This allowed the cable extending from the end to be long enough to engage the throttle (I plan on making a custom cable in the future).
6. I cut the ferrule off the decel cable and added another one so it fit well in the notch of the throttle body.

I just got the o2 sensors installed last weekend and have a couple of rides on them. The learning is taking effect and the bike gets smoother every ride. Overall I'm happy with the kit, but I will make some suggestions to Matt for consideration.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Bicycle inner tube perhaps? I think that's what ecotrons used on the engine side.

Yeah, had I known it would be this much work to get the throttle body right, I probably wouldn't have gotten the kit. I have spent over $200 at last count buying tools and materials to make the fuel rail, cable bracket and pulley. It would have been a lot cheaper to just buy a UK throttle body and toss the ecotrons one. Actually, the customization that ecotrons has already done probably cost him more than making a custom throttle body for the ninja.

Oh, BTW, I got a pair of those fuel disconnects. I think they will work out just fine. They cut the fuel off in both directions which is great. They also have recessed disconnect buttons to prevent accidental disconnects.

which fuel disconnects did u get? im thinking of getting some myself.

And for the guy that mentioned the CA tank i just capped my return bc the way i routed everything it would have made things more difficult. But having that line go there would def let the bubbles travel up and not get stuck.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

Coolio. Sounds good! Cant wait to see your final product. Feel free to bounce ideas off me.

Actually, it would help me if you or someone else who has removed their 250 throttle cables would measure the sheath lengths. I could do it myself, but mine are currently installed on the bike. I want to compare them to the 650 cables I have. Actually, both sheath and cable length would be helpful.

EDIT: When measuring, measure the wire from the inside nut to inside nut. When measuring the sheath, measure from tip to tip.

I have a hunch that the 250 cables have the same sheath, but shorter cable wires. I had planned to make the pulley/bracket assembly to work with the 650 cables, but at this point it looks like it might be possible to just use the original 250 cables if the bracket and pulley are designed right. I need the measurements to make sure.

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

which fuel disconnects did u get? im thinking of getting some myself.

These guys:



You need two. A pair is less than $25 including shipping at amazon.

I originally was going to get ball valves, but these were cheaper and better. I mean, what do you use a ball valve for - you need them to shut off the fuel so you can disconnect the lines. With these, they disconnect and shut the fuel off in both directions with the push of a button.

____________________________________

QUESTION: You guys that have completed the conversion I was wondering if you could confirm my suspicion that the safety interlocks no longer work. That is, you can now crank while in gear and ride with the kickstand down? There is also the conspicuous absence of a tip over switch. All of that is important, but it will have wait until I get everything else correct. I just want to know if I'm barking up the right tree with that.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

__________

QUESTION: You guys that have completed the conversion I was wondering if you could confirm my suspicion that the safety interlocks no longer work. That is, you can now crank while in gear and ride with the kickstand down? There is also the conspicuous absence of a tip over switch. All of that is important, but it will have wait until I get everything else correct. I just want to know if I'm barking up the right tree with that.

Not sure about starting with the kickstand down (though it would make sense) but the bike surely runs with the kick stand down. I noticed that yesterday. I used to use all 3 methods to shut the bike off (sometimes key, sometimes switch, sometimes the kickstand) I threw the kickstand down and the engine kept running away. I'll test this theory out today, and get back to you when I get to class (or after, depending on what time I get there).

UPDATE: Strange, putting the kickstand down while in gear does nothing, the bike keeps running like normal, but I cannot start the bike with the kickstand down, in gear, with the clutch pulled in.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

These guys:



You need two. A pair is less than $25 including shipping at amazon.

I originally was going to get ball valves, but these were cheaper and better. I mean, what do you use a ball valve for - you need them to shut off the fuel so you can disconnect the lines. With these, they disconnect and shut the fuel off in both directions with the push of a button.

.

Hey man so did u already try those ones out? they dont say dual shut off. ONes i have seen are 25 bucks each that are the dual shut off. But those are much cheaper if u could let me know if they do in deed shut off the fuel both sides.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Not sure about starting with the kickstand down (though it would make sense) but the bike surely runs with the kick stand down. I noticed that yesterday. I used to use all 3 methods to shut the bike off (sometimes key, sometimes switch, sometimes the kickstand) I threw the kickstand down and the engine kept running away. I'll test this theory out today, and get back to you when I get to class (or after, depending on what time I get there).

UPDATE: Strange, putting the kickstand down while in gear does nothing, the bike keeps running like normal, but I cannot start the bike with the kickstand down, in gear, with the clutch pulled in.

is it wired to the kill switch?

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by lgk

is it wired to the kill switch?

Originally it was, however with the new plug for the Ecotrons kit, obviously something interesting is going on with the circuitry. Doesn't personally bother me, but I can understand that some may want it corrected for safety purposes

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Hey man so did u already try those ones out? they dont say dual shut off. ONes i have seen are 25 bucks each that are the dual shut off. But those are much cheaper if u could let me know if they do in deed shut off the fuel both sides.

As far as I can tell, they shut off the gas in both directions. I tried blowing through each half and couldn't. They are made with viton O-rings so they are compatible with both gas and E85. Also, that company only charges shipping once for both.

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Originally it was, however with the new plug for the Ecotrons kit, obviously something interesting is going on with the circuitry. Doesn't personally bother me, but I can understand that some may want it corrected for safety purposes

I just looked at the wring diagram. The ninja CDI monitors three safety circuits - Side stand, clutch and neutral. The starter interlock, red kill switch and neutral light are hardwired so the CDI or ECU doesn't bother them. However, the standard CDI will shut off the engine if the kick stand is down while in gear and the clutch engaged (released). All three conditions have to be met or else the engine runs normally. The bottom line is that it shouldn't be possible to ride with the kick stand down.

It is also possible to tap into the same circuit and add a tip over switch. With a carbed bike, when it tips over, the carbs flood out and stall the engine that way. With fuel injection, the bike continues to run. So that is why a tip over switch is important. I'm going to add one later after I get everything working right.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

It is also possible to tap into the same circuit and add a tip over switch. With a carbed bike, when it tips over, the carbs flood out and stall the engine that way. With fuel injection, the bike continues to run. So that is why a tip over switch is important. I'm going to add one later after I get everything working right.

If you install one of these on your bike you won't need a tip over sensor

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...dont-crash.jpg

[setasai]

@n4mwd If you still need the dimensions of the 250R throttle cables, I'll be taking them off tomorrow. I can measure them for you later. I'll lay them on the floor w/ the 650R cables and take a picture so you can get perspective before I hopefully finish the install tomorrow. Long day. Wish me luck!

[lgk]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

As far as I can tell, they shut off the gas in both directions. I tried blowing through each half and couldn't. They are made with viton O-rings so they are compatible with both gas and E85. Also, that company only charges shipping once for both.



I just looked at the wring diagram. The ninja CDI monitors three safety circuits - Side stand, clutch and neutral. The starter interlock, red kill switch and neutral light are hardwired so the CDI or ECU doesn't bother them. However, the standard CDI will shut off the engine if the kick stand is down while in gear and the clutch engaged (released). All three conditions have to be met or else the engine runs normally. The bottom line is that it shouldn't be possible to ride with the kick stand down.

It is also possible to tap into the same circuit and add a tip over switch. With a carbed bike, when it tips over, the carbs flood out and stall the engine that way. With fuel injection, the bike continues to run. So that is why a tip over switch is important. I'm going to add one later after I get everything working right.

does a tip over switch sense throttle position.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

@n4mwd If you still need the dimensions of the 250R throttle cables, I'll be taking them off tomorrow. I can measure them for you later. I'll lay them on the floor w/ the 650R cables and take a picture so you can get perspective before I hopefully finish the install tomorrow. Long day. Wish me luck!

Yes, I still need them. A photo would be great, but I would also need the sheath and cable lengths of the 250 cables too.

I am almost done with the cable bracket design and ironically it looks like it is possible to use the original 250 cables with it. The new design top feeds the cables just like the carb. The only difference is that they are on the left of the bike instead of the right. Its just a matter of swinging them over if they aren't too tight.

The other irony is that it looks like this is possible using the existing pulley as long as accel-only is acceptable. This news comes after I ground mine off.

Originally Posted by lgk

does a tip over switch sense throttle position.

No, its just a switch with a weight in it so that if the tilt angle of the bike is too great it will cut off the bike. The weight is affected by centrifugal force so a huge lean around a corner wont switch off the bike. They sell them on ebay, but I was thinking about just using a mercury switch somehow.

But it will have to wait until I get the rest of it installed and working.

[Scattcatt]

Alright, my update history with the fuel injection:

*Disclaimer* First my performance upgrades are a full CF Yoshi exhaust system, and I'm running on two K&N filter pods with a removed snorkel. So your results with adjustments may differ *end disclaimer* ( had to include it )



1) Stock performance stats in ProCAL running on "ECO" no O2 sensors

START UP: Very easy, one or two turns of the engine and it came to life

WARM UP: Idle would fluctuate from 1600rpm to somewhere near/under 1000rpm. It would die if you gave it too much gas. Throttle control was tricky.

MID RIDE: Throttle control was tricky when coming to stops. Engine had a tendency to drop very low in the RPMs and stalled frequently. Power band was not too good under 4k rpms, and there was a funny behavior between 8-9k rpms where the power would drop a little bit, then pick back up after 9k rpms. Blipping on downshifts was nearly impossible.

OVERALL IMPRESSION: I felt the carburetors were better performance-wise than this test. I knew I had some tuning to do.



2) Fuel shut of rpm on ProCAL changed to 15300 in all cells. "ECO" mode no O2 sensors

START UP: Excellent, zero problems

WARM UP: Better than before, with small throttle twists I didn't have to worry about the rpm's dropping down to the stalling zone. Rpms still dropped slightly under idle though when rolling to stops.

MID RIDE: Funny power ban still existed at low rpms and from 8-9k (though the 8-9k oddly improved). Coming to a stop was easy, I didn't have to worry about working the throttle carefully to keep the engine alive. RPM's occasionally dipped low enough for me to get concerned of a stall, but it was rare. I could now blip when downshifting

OVERALL IMPRESSION: Much better, I was comfortable riding the bike around town like this, the power band was slightly better, and you could easily feel that this set up had more torque than the carbs did.



3) Fuel shut off at 15300 rpms, all cells on "desired lambda" lowered such that no cells contained anything over .899. "RICH" mode no O2 sensors

START UP: Yet to be determined from a true cold start, only tested with a "cool" start (not quite cooled off from riding). Easy start, immediately fired up just like all the previous tests

WARM UP: Idle is excellent, very little fluctuation even during beginning of ride test. Drops slightly when stopping, I was in no fear of a stall though.

MID RIDE: rpms slightly drop during stopping still, but not a big deal. Powerband problems are pretty much fixed. The torque output puts the carbs to shame! Very pleased with this test.

OVERALL IMPRESSION: Excellent basic set up! Easily outperforms the carbs! Very stable and one very happy rider! Only small fine tuning adjustments remain to get the best out of the system. I recorded the entire last test on ProCAL. I just threw my laptop in my backpack while it was connected and took off. I have yet to look at the charts in detail, but I'm convinced everything is excellent! Will update after looking at the charts.

[choneofakind]

@Scattcatt were all those tests made without installing the O2 sensors?

If you can get it running well without installing the O2 sensors will you just leave them off?

I'm confused how it got running that well without the O2 sensors. I thought FI systems need to measure the A/F ratio in the exhaust

[flynjay]

@ Scattcatt - Great Job. Do you plan on installing the O2 sensors?

After installing the o2 sensors I've noticed a couple things:
1. The base map is rich for my pre-gen. First ride O2 sensor output was basically pegged at .850V.

2. After about 30 minutes of riding, I've noticed the map has improved greatly and the O2 sensors spend more time bouncing between 0v and .850 V signifying that the system is tuned for the AFR of 14.7.

3. The ECU does not learn all the time - There is a variable that switches from 0 to 1 if certain conditions are met. First ride it was about 5% of the time, Second ride about 25%. I think it specifically looks for the o2 sensors to bounce from high to low which signifies the o2 sensors are reading. As the fuel map gets closer to ideal, it seems learning "on" time will be a higher percentage.

@choneofakind - Have you read the documentation that came with the kit? It specifically states that while not necessary, it is recommended to have a somewhat stable running engine without the o2 sensors operating.

Fuel injection systems do not have to have o2 sensors. Some just have fuel maps that are made by very fine dyno tuning.

For learning O2 sensors are a must.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

@Scattcatt were all those tests made without installing the O2 sensors?

If you can get it running well without installing the O2 sensors will you just leave them off?

I'm confused how it got running that well without the O2 sensors. I thought FI systems need to measure the A/F ratio in the exhaust

You can think of what Scattcat is doing as "Jetting" his ECU. Rather than having realtime info from the sensors update info on the ECU, scatt is manually updating the info by using his butt dyno and knowledge of lean/rich mixtures.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

You can think of what Scattcat is doing as "Jetting" his ECU. Rather than having realtime info from the sensors update info on the ECU, scatt is manually updating the info by using his butt dyno and knowledge of lean/rich mixtures.

My "butt dyno" huh? I honestly don't know if I'm going to install the O2 sensors at this point. I'm waiting for some of my questions to be answered from Matt before I make my final decision. This jetting method seems to be working extremely well for me and is labeled as a "crude" method in the instructional PDF's, I can only imagine what it's going to perform like after I get into the more advanced methods of tuning. Matt has told me that the O2 sensors don't play any effect when in "RICH" mode, but it's required to be in "RICH" mode for the lambda chart to work. I intend on keeping my bike on "RICH" for the majority of the time, and if that's the case I truly don't see much of a reason to want to install the O2 sensors. However, I occasionally do travel to the mountains. Here in the Vegas valley, our altitude is roughly 2205 ft above sea level, when I go into the mountains I go to an altitude of over 8000 ft so it's only common sense to realize that my "RICH" map may actually perform poorly up there especially since the O2 sensors will not do any corrections. I'm honestly still so fearful of the thought of cutting through my headers... Even if it's only the tip in the exhaust gas stream, this still theoretically decreases overall performance, right? I guess you could say that I've just got performance fever and am not really willing to sacrifice much.

[choneofakind]

Ah thanks @Jiggles that makes sense. So then with this method of adjusting the mixture manually, would Scattcatt have the same issues as a carb'd bike when changing temperatures or elevations since it won't have a moment by moment read on the mix?

@flynjay, no I don't have this kit. I'm just an interested third party who's enjoying reading about the evolution of this system for later possibly, or not. I mean we'll see when I get there. For now, my carbs are working just fine for me and I've gotten good at tuning them, so I'll keep them

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Ah thanks @Jiggles that makes sense. So then with this method of adjusting the mixture manually, would Scattcatt have the same issues as a carb'd bike when changing temperatures or elevations since it won't have a moment by moment read on the mix?

@flynjay, no I don't have this kit. I'm just an interested third party who's enjoying reading about the evolution of this system for later possibly, or not. I mean we'll see when I get there. For now, my carbs are working just fine for me and I've gotten good at tuning them, so I'll keep them

I'm not sure, that's one of my questions to Matt, I'm not sure if there is any way for the system to know without the O2 sensors at altitude to fix the AFR. I'm doubting it, which is the only reason why I might install the O2 sensors

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Even if it's only the tip in the exhaust gas stream, this still theoretically decreases overall performance, right? I guess you could say that I've just got performance fever and am not really willing to sacrifice much.

make it an excuse to go out and get the AreaP 18" full race system (better than the yoshi system ). That way, you're compensating for any performance losses with the new system plus you can have AreaP install the bungs for you, so you never have to cut into the new headers.

Can you take it to a dyno now and get your table of values set up perfectly and then install the O2 sensors at a later date, but still use the values that you dyno'd to get? that would likely be a good scenario for you.

[setasai]

For those of you that have it already installed. Did you do it with the injectors on top or on bottom? I initially wanted to have them installed from the top but I'm having a whole ton of issues with the throttle cables being 1, not long enough and 2, it comes in from the bottom which is horrible placement and 3, I cant figure out how to route the cable without it resting up on the engine heads. See attached photo. If you had it from the bottom, did you have trouble connecting the hoses for the injectors?

@n4mwd measured the 250R stock cables, sorry tape measure is standard units only.
Sheath at 30.5" and cable at 34". I may be off 1/4" here and there because the cable did not want to stay straight as I measured.

As I just said earlier, how are your throttle cable mounts coming? If you want to exchange some emails, I'd be willing to do some off the record idea bouncing. I'm very very close to switching it so that the injectors are from the bottom instead because it seems that this throttle body is designed to work that way.

[flynjay]

I had absolutely no problems with the fuel cables to the injectors. If anything I think it was easier from the bottom as the pregen has more space under the tb then on top.

My hose run from the pump to the injector is about 12 in from the regulator. Basically they both make a big C about 5 in in diameter to make the 180 to the y coming out of the regulator.

One of the changes I will eventually make to my setup is to replace the Y that I am currently using for the injector hoses with a tee. That way I will have the left injector hose make a 90 deg arc to the tee and the right injector will still have a 180 degree arc. That will clean up the hoses for me.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

make it an excuse to go out and get the AreaP 18" full race system (better than the yoshi system ). That way, you're compensating for any performance losses with the new system plus you can have AreaP install the bungs for you, so you never have to cut into the new headers.

Can you take it to a dyno now and get your table of values set up perfectly and then install the O2 sensors at a later date, but still use the values that you dyno'd to get? that would likely be a good scenario for you.

Actually, I plan on getting one some day this is just what came with my bike! I want to get the engine ported too, along with JE pistons for both higher compression and displacement. She's going to be a beast when I'm finished with her! I'll have to find a place with a dyno for a reasonable price, but that's also another thing that I have planned to do sometime soon! I'll be sure to post back here after I do it and let you guys all know how it went.

@setasai posted it plenty of times before, but I'll post it again just for the sake of posting it one more time my TB is upside down, and I never had to change out any cables. I'm only using the acceleration cable though, didn't put the decel cable on

[choneofakind]

I have similar plans once I get out of college. A ninjette with 35hp would be an awesome twisty killer

[crash666444666]

can you use this on a 2005 model ?????
anyone know

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by crash666444666

can you use this on a 2005 model ?????
anyone know

Yes, just make sure Matt at Ecotrons knows that it's a pregen

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

@n4mwd measured the 250R stock cables, sorry tape measure is standard units only.
Sheath at 30.5" and cable at 34". I may be off 1/4" here and there because the cable did not want to stay straight as I measured.

As I just said earlier, how are your throttle cable mounts coming? If you want to exchange some emails, I'd be willing to do some off the record idea bouncing. I'm very very close to switching it so that the injectors are from the bottom instead because it seems that this throttle body is designed to work that way.

I just finished the cable bracket design today. It seems like its been a million successive approximations to get it right. The bracket mounts in place of the forbitel bracket, travels up and over the pulley, then attaches to a flat bar that is mounted across the injector mounts. The cable mounts are slightly above the injectors. There just wasn't much to work with on this. I think I'd almost give just about anything for a convenient screw hole on the side of the throttle body.

Anyhow, it sounds like the sheaths are the same length for both the 650 and 250 cables. The 250 cables have shorter wires. My bracket is designed for the 250 cables with the cables feeding in from the top (injectors also on top). Its just a question of whether or not the sheaths are long enough and I think they will be.

I plan on cutting metal tomorrow. The base metal I have is .065" plain steel. As long as there aren't any more oops moments, I should have a functional bracket by tomorrow evening.

_________________________________________
ALSO, I don't think I mentioned this before, but there is a small vacuum leak at the injector mounts. I'm not sure just how significant this is, but its located where the injectors fit into the throttle body. The O-rings are held open by what looks like a set screw. Its not an open window, but its there.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

@setasai posted it plenty of times before, but I'll post it again just for the sake of posting it one more time my TB is upside down, and I never had to change out any cables. I'm only using the acceleration cable though, didn't put the decel cable on

Haha Much appreciated. Yes I knew most of you who have already completed the install had them upside down but on the off chance someone had installed them from the top, I wanted to see if they ran into similar problems as I did. I've decided to go with the way you people have been doing it since it so far seems to be going well. Thanks again!

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I just finished the cable bracket design today. It seems like its been a million successive approximations to get it right. The bracket mounts in place of the forbitel bracket, travels up and over the pulley, then attaches to a flat bar that is mounted across the injector mounts. The cable mounts are slightly above the injectors. There just wasn't much to work with on this. I think I'd almost give just about anything for a convenient screw hole on the side of the throttle body.

That's exactly what I was thinking. There werent any other screw holes that you could use as mounting points. Very tricky tricky. Your bracket may be the only way we can get the cables mounted without getting in the way of the engine. Keep us posted for sure!

Anyhow, it sounds like the sheaths are the same length for both the 650 and 250 cables. The 250 cables have shorter wires.

Yea, I put the cables next to each other just to see and yes they are the same length. The cable adds a couple extra inches. If the "bend" on the 650 cables didnt exist, I think the 650R sheath would be longer by just a little bit.

ALSO, I don't think I mentioned this before, but there is a small vacuum leak at the injector mounts. I'm not sure just how significant this is, but its located where the injectors fit into the throttle body. The O-rings are held open by what looks like a set screw. Its not an open window, but its there.

Yea I saw that but my set screws arent sticking out. They are just... there... Maybe flatten them out?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

Yea I saw that but my set screws arent sticking out. They are just... there... Maybe flatten them out?

Its actually the part around the screw. The O-ring sits about 0.300" below the base of the injector. If you look closely at the set screw, you'll see that the channel is no longer round (starting at about 0.200") at the point where the O-ring would engage. That is where the leak is.

But I don't think its a bad leak, but its there. I don't think its just mine because I think they are all made that way. I would guess that its already been compensated for by the ECU and the idle screws underneath.

[setasai]

Ohhhhhhh I see what you mean. Hmmm good point. Meh, I guess we'll just keep it in mind but since nobody else has issues with it, I wont worry about it. Good catch!

[n4mwd]

I think it would be more significant if it was a carburetor, but I don't think it matters as much with fuel injection. It can all be compensated by the ECU.

[flynjay]

Do your injectors sit flush with the throttle body? I found I had to file the base of the injectors slightly to get them both to sit flush.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by flynjay

Do your injectors sit flush with the throttle body? I found I had to file the base of the injectors slightly to get them both to sit flush.

Yes. The problem is with the joint between the throttle body and the injector housing right where the little set screw is. Its a design defect. Everyone has it. I don't think its bad enough to worry about though.

I've been working on this thing all day. I got my new pulley and cable bracket cut out but not installed yet. I had to remove the main idle screw by the pulley. It was mismatched threads or something. Took 3 hours just to unbind it.

Honestly, I hope the rest of this kit is better quality and design than the throttle body. I'm very close to throwing the whole mess in the trash. The whole point was to make the bike more reliable than carbs. So far, I am not convinced. I should not have to rebuild everything like this.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Honestly, I hope the rest of this kit is better quality and design than the throttle body. I should not have to rebuild everything like this.

Technically, you could have used everything as is. I know it's not your style and it typically isnt mine either but i'm getting lazy and everybody else doesnt seem to be encountering any problems with the system itself, just tuning.

As for the rest of the kit, I gotta be honest with you, I like the rest of the kit. Had I purchased the kawasaki OEM throttlebody, I wouldnt have very many complaints at all. The wireharness in particular is very very well wrapped and feels secure.

Goodluck! I'm curious to see how your bracket comes out.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

Technically, you could have used everything as is. I know it's not your style and it typically isnt mine either but i'm getting lazy and everybody else doesnt seem to be encountering any problems with the system itself, just tuning.

As for the rest of the kit, I gotta be honest with you, I like the rest of the kit. Had I purchased the kawasaki OEM throttlebody, I wouldnt have very many complaints at all. The wireharness in particular is very very well wrapped and feels secure.

Goodluck! I'm curious to see how your bracket comes out.

Actually, yes, I probably should have just used it upside down. However, I couldn't get past the cables being bent beyond safe limits. However, I now consider the ecotrons throttle body as being temporary - so upside down with bent cables would have been just fine.

The fact that I found a 0.5mm thread pitch bolt in a 0.7 thread pitch hole really irks me.

Anyhow, I have attached some photos below of the bracket. Its a work in progress and isn't done yet. I still need to adjust the cable mount plates and drill holes in them for the cable bolts. As you can see, I am using the 250 version of the pulley. The old pulley I made with washers was more appropriate for 650 cables.