October 20th, 2015, 10:28 AM | #41 |
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Just got off the phone with a friend of mine who's a cop in the Dallas/Fort Worth area (this incident occurred near Grandbury, TX which is around 40 miles southwest of DFW) and he tells me that there is no legal exception to crossing the solid yellow line except to make a turn onto a side street or into a driveway. None. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...htm/TN.545.htm
Now, there are people who think that somehow these motorcyclists somehow "deserved" to be attacked this way. To those people I say, you are socio/psychopaths. Nobody deserves to be violently attacked, except perhaps in self defense or in defense of property. Neither of those apply in this situation. Make no mistake, Crum is a psychopath who consciously and deliberately made the decision to use his vehicle as a weapon to attack other people, with complete indifference to whether or not he killed them. There is no circumstance within a civilized society where this kind of decision is acceptable in any way. None. Because if there was, then it would be ok to do it to you, too. Your life is no more valuable to this society than the lives of those motorcyclists who were almost killed by Crum. No less valuable either, for that matter, unless you're the kind of person who thinks the way that Crum apparently does. In that case, you too are a threat to society and need to be treated as would any other dangerous animal. I don't even pretend to know what goes on in the minds of people who commit acts of violence against their fellow citizens, nor of those who think that it's justifiable in any way. |
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October 20th, 2015, 10:39 AM | #42 |
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Crum. No one was ever more appropriately named.
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October 20th, 2015, 10:43 AM | #43 | |
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The current minimum liability limits are $30,000 for each injured person, up to a total of $60,000 per accident, and $25,000 for property damage per accident. This basic coverage is called 30/60/25 coverage. http://www.tdi.texas.gov/pubs/consumer/cb020.html So she's likely looking at $70,000 or more in medical bills. She may or may not have medical insurance, this state rejected the Affordable Health Care Act medicare expansion and still has some of the highest uninsured rated in the country. Given that a private health insurance policy runs upwards of $600-1,000 a month here it's likely that if she does it's through her employer if she's employed. Even still she could be looking at many thousands in bills. I have a decent plan through my employer and my maximum out of pocket is $12,000 per annum. Did she know he didn't have a current license? If he had insurance it probably wasn't comprehensive, so it wouldn't have medical riders to cover her. Comprehensive in this state is really, really expensive, hundreds of dollars a month. Oh, in the eyes of the law it's not like Crum just pointed a gun at them. More correctly, it's like he pointed a gun at them and then shot them both with the intent to kill. That's aggravated assault. It's a second degree felony. My hope is that there will be enough public pressure to prevent the DA from offering Crum a plea bargain. The evidence is clear. This is about as perfect a case as you can get. There's absolutely no reason to plea this down to a lesser charge or sentence. Crum is a menace to society and it's clear (to me, at least) that the likelyhood of that changing over the next two decades is zero to none. This is why felony aggravated assault has up to 20 years for sentencing. |
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October 20th, 2015, 10:46 AM | #44 |
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I only got one more comment on this thread.
There is right and wrong and those who are blinded by the forest because they can't see the trees. Bottom line; The rider was in the wrong by crossing the yellow... yea??!?!? So what? Does it deserve the action taken against him/her/them. And fyi... it doesn't matter who took that action. Like it or not, I agree with Mr. Fist. At some point you have to call the ball. Some things are just unacceptable. For every action, there is an equal reaction. It's when it's not equal, there is a problem.
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October 20th, 2015, 10:58 AM | #45 | |
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A separate thread on how one shouldn't attempt to run people off the road and potentially kill them. Which should be posted in the Don't Kill Other People section. |
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October 20th, 2015, 11:05 AM | #46 |
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But the most important thread is the one that plays inside your own head while you ride.
Yeah, we love our motorcycles. We love the feeling of riding. I say go ahead and twist that throttle when the conditions are right, but demonstrate restraint and good manners when the moment isn't right. Don't force it. |
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October 20th, 2015, 11:09 AM | #47 | |
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October 20th, 2015, 11:36 AM | #48 |
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If I win MotM again I'm going to request that @Alex create just such a section.
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October 20th, 2015, 12:17 PM | #49 | ||
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I'm just wondering how the law suit will play out. If Crum says it was an accident and he didn't see Sanders (highly unlikely based on his own words in the video and there was no reason for him to swerve into the other lane, crossing the double yellow just like Sanders did.) Crum could claim that Sanders actions contributed to the accident and he shares all or part of the responsibility for the accident. Just found the answer to my question, Texas is 51% rule: Quote:
For the young lady I think she has an air tight suit against Crum as a passenger she had no input on the accident. |
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October 20th, 2015, 02:48 PM | #50 | |
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If I were in the riders position, would I have done the same and passed the car? Absolutely! Or, in your example of the tractor, absolutely! IN ADDITION, and this seems the part that you don't seem to understand: 1.) I have insurance 2.) I ATGATT 3.) My passengers ATGATT 4.) I'm patient - I would have sat back long enough to figure out why this person was going 20mph below the speed limit. For somebody to do something like that on a road like that means something is wrong. I've always gotten the distinct impression that the membership of Ninjette are always looking for ways to learn from other's mistakes, and in that vein was I trying to present a learning opportunity. A learning opportunity that came back to my most unpopular opinion - a rider is 100% responsible for their safety because idiots and psychopaths, like Crum, exist and share those roads with us. As VaFish said, I'm outraged at both of them. It's situations like this that make motorcycles into "murdercycles" in the popular opinion and to simply point fingers at the driver is to miss the biggest solution that we have at our disposal, crazy people or no crazy people. Lastly, I am sorry that this ground your gears so hard. As I mentioned previously, it is a difficult situation and its easy to jump to one side or the other, but there is a reason justice isn't served by lynch mobs anymore...
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October 20th, 2015, 03:11 PM | #51 | |
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FWIW, the old guy is a crazy **** who deserves to be...well, you can insert whatever wicked methods of torture you can imagine here. D. |
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October 20th, 2015, 04:33 PM | #52 |
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Nothing's going to happen to the old man. He got charged. So what? Doesn't mean anything. The prosecutors have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the old man INTENTIONALLY tried to hit the rider.
How can they prove that? The burden of proof is with the prosecutor. Maybe the "I don't care" comment at the end will end up biting him in the ass...but when they question him on the "I don't care" comment, he can always say "I really don't care if I hit someone. I have insurance for that. But I didn't hit him on purpose. I heard motorcycle engines roaring and I was startled and accidentally jerked the steering wheel". If they go to a jury trial, how would you think the 12 men/women would feel when they watch the entire video of these two guys going "baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" with their bikes passing other motorists illegally cutting across the double yellow? So I guess, at the end of the day, the riders didn't help themselves out by riding like asshats and the old man didn't help himself out by saying "I don't care". If he were a bit smarter, he would've came out of the car shaking and cover his face with his hands saying "OMG OMG OMG I'm so scared".
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October 20th, 2015, 04:40 PM | #53 |
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Why does outrageous stuff like this happen primarily in Texas or Florida?
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October 20th, 2015, 06:57 PM | #54 | |
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October 20th, 2015, 08:58 PM | #55 |
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Just saw the video and, honestly, I don't think the rider was doing anything wrong. The whole lane was empty, there was zero on coming traffic, what's the harm in overtaking? Or maybe that's just the Indian in me speaking, because that's how we do things in india, not the most law abiding country, I must admit. On the other hand, deliberately knocking over a motorcyclist for basically being faster than you or for "breaking a law", that's down right being a douche and homicidal. Ok, so the biker broke a law, that doesn't give that a**hole a right to be judge jury and executioner... I hope he goes to jail.
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October 21st, 2015, 04:05 AM | #56 | |
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My guess is he didn't keep his mouth shut. |
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October 21st, 2015, 06:14 AM | #57 | |
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Don't misinterpret my outrage as sanctioning the lack of gear or insurance. That is an entirely separate issue and not related to the attempted murder. Here's my point: Had the rider and passenger been wearing full gear Had the rider been insured Had the rider passed legally The outcome, with the exception of injury severity, would have been the same. An attempted homicide that resulted in a potentially fatal crash. Caveat: We don't know what set Crum off. It could have been an illegal pass. It could just have been getting passed by a "crotch rocket." You would have made that pass and been whacked too, despite your gear, insurance and patience*. Is that a learning opportunity? What is the rider's responsibility there? Saying that the rider is 100% responsible for his safety in a situation like this is like saying it's the responsibility of an innocent bystander to not get shot in a drive-by. I think the disconnect is that I see this as a completely unwarranted, willful act of violence perpetrated on an unsuspecting victim. You seem to see it as some kind of provoked attack -- that the rider did something to the driver, prompting a response. As I said earlier, had the rider been aggressive, crowded the car, used excessive speed, etc... then that's a different thing. But he wasn't. * PS: We don't know how long the rider was stuck behind those cars. When I look at the video, I see the camera bike coming up on them and they were already there... could have been following that guy for miles.
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October 21st, 2015, 06:33 AM | #58 |
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Heck, if the 20-under allegations are true, I would have passed him in my car with that much open road available, regardless of the line... Ain't nobody got time for that.
Now, and interesting topic this has brought up; Frugal mentioned his officer friend reviewing some law about crossing the yellow. At least in Ohio, there is an exemption for passing on a DY. If a slow moving vehicle is moving less than half the posted limit, traffic is allowed to pass (when safe) on a double yellow. The intent was for things like bicycles, tractors, golf carts, etc etc. Now I doubt that the road in this scenario was 40 mph and that the old man doing 20 under put him at half the posted limit, but it's an interesting discussion that gets raised. Should there be provisions for allowing road users to pass when others not willing to keep up with the flow of traffic? This article is geared more towards bicycling, but it's relevant given the discussion. http://iamtraffic.org/engineering/cr...e-yellow-line/ I agree with you Mr Fist. Well thought out and well communicated argument, but this: is a little too holier-than-thou for me. Just putting that out there. |
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October 21st, 2015, 06:35 AM | #59 |
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October 21st, 2015, 07:13 AM | #60 |
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Do not go that route, EVER.
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October 21st, 2015, 07:24 AM | #61 |
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October 21st, 2015, 07:34 AM | #62 | |
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But his comment about other bikes riding wheelies and thinking the rider was one of them kind of contradicts his spider bite/bee sting story. And it also shows that he knew the bike was coming up behind him. |
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October 21st, 2015, 07:41 AM | #63 | |
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October 21st, 2015, 08:18 AM | #64 | |
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However, there was no evidence in the video of a safety concern. The riders were just impatient.
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October 21st, 2015, 08:45 AM | #65 | |
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Nothing in the VA code allows you to do that. There may very well be some case law that says it is OK though. VA is real big on having case law define exceptions to the law. For instance we have no law that defines what is acceptable self defense, that is all defined in case law. |
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October 21st, 2015, 08:47 AM | #66 |
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I definitely think the rider deserves some of the blame here. Beside the fact that he was riding without gear, riding with a passenger also not wearing gear, and riding aggressively with a passenger, he just wasn't paying attention.
Riding around in his own little world he obviously never expected the car driver to act aggressively against him. I actually don't think that the car driver was trying to hit him and just trying to scare them. Either way the motorcycle rider did nothing to try to avoid the accident and instead just kept going not even noticing the car swerving into him.
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October 21st, 2015, 08:49 AM | #67 |
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Apologies if my comments about wearing full leathers rubbed anyone the wrong way. Just responding to Spooph's comment that I "don't seem to understand" about having insurance, ATGATT, being patient, etc. I do understand. Statements about my personal practice were intended to prove it.
Perhaps I'm not making myself clear about 100% responsibility. Riders are indeed 100% responsible for riding in a safe, controlled manner, and for doing what they can to protect themselves. But the suggestion (e.g. "I have no sympathy for the rider") is that this includes responsibility for not getting hit by a lunatic trying to kill him. Obviously not something that a rider can do anything about. Said it before but it bears repeating: Had the rider actually been acting aggressively, then okay... shared responsibility. But he wasn't. This is like getting hit by a bus. We've heard the "blame the victim" rationale before... "if she hadn't dressed like that, if she hadn't gone to that bar, if she hadn't led him on, he wouldn't have raped her." Sorry, victims are victims. Is it your responsibility to not be a victim? It's the absolute, unqualified nature of the statement that I find flawed. How about "A rider is 100% responsible for those aspects of safety that are within his control." That makes sense to me.
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October 21st, 2015, 09:14 AM | #68 |
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Passing on a double yellow is within the rider's control. He could have decided not to pass just like the car in front of him choose not to pass.
I'm not saying that's what I would have chosen to do. It's not the rider's fault he was trying to pass a complete lunatic. It's not the rider's fault he was attacked. But the rider took on an additional level of risk by making the pass on a double yellow. |
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October 21st, 2015, 09:20 AM | #69 | ||
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Hopefully this discussion will pop up in our minds and make us think just a little longer about the possible risks of a situation, and make us ask questions like: - What's going on up ahead? - Why is that driver going so slow? - Would getting his license plate, pulling over and informing the police be a better option than passing him? Maybe this will save somebody else from a possible risky situation? Maybe the drive is drunk, tired, or emotionally upset? Maybe that driver is emotionally upset because he/she is going to a funeral, and I can simply help them by being patient and following the law? Or is my need for an exciting ride more important than them having a peaceful drive to go watch their loved one being buried? No, not saying that's what Crum was doing, just trying to illustrate the point that our #1 safety feature is our brain, and if we find common ground with those that irritate us, and take a step back long enough, then all of a sudden we do exactly what the BRC taught us - to create time and space. In the moment, I know from personal experience, it's hard to give that extra bit of thought, because the ride is exciting. Quote:
On victims: It's a terrible thing. It should NEVER be invalidated or blamed. However, there is a third option in addition to the blame game. That third option is preparedness. Each and every one of us should carry the responsibility not to become a victim. If we become a victim, the game changes as then we have to deal with a bunch of other factors and that's a whole new thread in a different section of this forum. All I'm trying to say is that we must use all of the tools we have to keep from becoming a victim, tools which all of us have easy access to: making time to think a situation through completely. I've learned this from personal experience. I use to ride like a maniac. I still do occasionally. What I've learned is that showing respect is my biggest asset. Sitting behind cars for miles and miles sometimes shows them respect, and they usually slow down or pull to the side for me to pass. When I was younger I'd get impatient wanting to enjoy the few corners which I knew lay ahead. I could get away with it, I had the power. That however didn't take into account the other person's perception of me. I've learned a crash isn't worth the impatience. I am sorry if I was too direct or insulted you. I didn't mean to. If we ever meet, I would love to buy you a cup of coffee or a beer.
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October 21st, 2015, 10:33 AM | #70 |
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October 21st, 2015, 03:42 PM | #71 |
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Just wanted to point out, for those who are into accounting (i.e., the rider did something so therefor in some small part the driver's actions are less objectionable), that the driver also crossed the solid yellow when he went after the rider. So, the rider cross the solid yellow and the driver crossed the solid yellow, and those cancel each other out. All that's left is the driver actually using his car as a weapon.
BTW, I doubt the driver has been ticketed for crossing that solid yellow like the rider was. Does that seem fair? I think not. If one gets a ticket, then the other gets a ticket. Now that's fair. |
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October 21st, 2015, 03:53 PM | #72 |
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Driver purposely hits Motorcycle trying to pass
Link to original page on YouTube.
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October 21st, 2015, 03:54 PM | #73 |
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Dam just seen this. I say the rider had what was coming.
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October 21st, 2015, 03:55 PM | #74 |
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October 21st, 2015, 06:01 PM | #75 | |
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October 21st, 2015, 06:41 PM | #76 | ||
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To me, that is another layer of responsibility: the attitude and determination to be or not to be the best rider that he can be. In order to deal in a sustained way with all the dangers of traffic and with the many violent drivers, a rider should work hard and daily to become as proficient and street smart as his capabilities allow. Quote:
We need to learn when to push and when to pull back. We have to be able to see dangerous situations way before they develop. The outcome may be the same, but fighting to the end, using all our arsenal of strategies, riding skills and protective gear is very different than passively watching the accident to develop with frozen brain and hands. Responsibility, which is no more than our capacity to foresee and react, is double when we carry a passenger. Regarding fairness of this accident, there is no much to debate, as each human being has a fine sense for that, either willing to see it or not. Justice has not much to do with the unforgiving laws of Physics and traffic. Compensation for a damaged wrist can never be as good as undamaged wrist and emotions. “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”― Benjamin Franklin
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October 21st, 2015, 09:17 PM | #77 |
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Maybe all of this arguing will cease soon.. because apparently the old man has done this sorta thing before.
http://www.yourglenrosetx.com/articl...29972/?Start=1
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October 22nd, 2015, 07:38 AM | #78 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
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October 22nd, 2015, 11:00 AM | #79 |
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Or if the driver had been a member of a law-abiding society and decided not to use his vehicle as a weapon. There is no equivalence between the two actions. One is civil violation, one is criminal. One breaks a statute, the other intends death and serious injury.
Not equivalent at all. Nobody deserves to be killed. |
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October 22nd, 2015, 11:15 AM | #80 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Join Date: Jul 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2001 Ninja 250, 2019 Harley Ultra Classic, 2001 Suzuki SV650 Posts: A lot.
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