December 14th, 2011, 04:46 PM | #81 | |
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In a true returnless system (in the automotive technology that I'm familiar with, anyway) the fuel pump is cycled on and off such that it only delivers the amount of fuel needed by the injectors. Any other system is a return system, whether the fuel returns to the tank or returns to the fuel pump inlet. In return systems heat can be an issue if the circuit is too small to allow adequate heat rejection. On a car with fuel lines that are many feet long there's enough area to reject lots of heat. On a bike with fuel lines measured in inches that's not necessarily the case. Oh, and the fuel tank will get hot, that pump heat has to go somewhere on a return system that runs back to the tank. |
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December 14th, 2011, 05:12 PM | #82 |
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From what you say, addng a fuel cooler heatsink should "reject" heat enough so that it would simulate being several feet long. Sounds like a solved problem to me.
I'm not sure why we even bother discussing this. Point of the thread is, some of us want EFI, ecotrons has a kit, many have tried it and it works well for thousands of miles, lets buy together and get a discount. END POST.
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December 14th, 2011, 05:42 PM | #83 | |
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During the development of my FI project (development being, in this case, just a nice word for "trial and error") I discovered that the "hot spot" in my fuel system was the upper portion of the fuel pump. I figured this out by using a laser-aimed, instant reading, infrared temperature sensor gun ($30 at Sears, fun toy) to check every section of my fuel system. If I didn't have the heat situation under control this is the spot in my system were the fuel would be most likely to vaporize. This makes sense as the Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer fuel pump is built to act like an in-tank pump: it's constructed with a small fuel pump submerged inside a larger aluminum housing that's flooded with fuel and the constant circulation of the flood fuel is used to carry away the heat generated by the pump motor pressurizing the fuel, just like an in-tank pump. So with my LT-R450 pump operating like an in-tank pump and my fuel cooler efficiently dumping off the heat into the intake airflow of the K&N air filter, the whole thing works least as well as a "return to fuel tank" system or a true "in tank" system would and I end up with a fuel system that operates at just over ambient air temperatures. So far so good. This simple suggestion wouldn't have gotten so convoluted and lengthy if I hadn't had people telling me that my system wouldn't work in spite of the fact that I rode it a couple thousand miles this summer in all sorts of heat and traffic conditions (and even here in Spokane we hit 100 degrees a couple of times this summer). |
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December 14th, 2011, 06:12 PM | #84 |
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Thanks Greg. We now have an alternate, confirmed to work, method to drilling into the tank for non-CA model Ninja 250's.
Greg, I hate you so much because I now HAVE to buy this.
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December 14th, 2011, 06:23 PM | #85 |
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Greg, usually you can figure these things out on your own, but in this case, I guess not. Perhaps I didn't explain it well. I will try again.
The tank is not totally sealed and gas can evaporate from it. As the gas evaporates, it keeps the liquid portion of gas from going above the boiling point of the fuel. Evaporating liquids cool. Its basic physics. Wet your hand and hold it in front of a fan. Does it feel cooler? So if your bike is parked in the 130F desert, the liquid gas will never rise above the evaporation point. The vapor portion does rise above the evaporation point, but we don't care about that. Therefore, you can use the liquid fuel in the tank to keep the recirculated fuel below the evaporation point. As far as I know, every car manufacturer uses tank recirculation. Many have the fuel pump right inside the tank as well. But just recirculating the hot fuel inside a closed loop of tubing just won't cut it in a hot climate. The cooling fins may help some, but may actually make things worse if the outside air temps get too high. I don't have the ecotrons kit, so I'm just guessing, but based on their website, it looks like they have the pressure regulator in the circuit prior to the injectors. If that is true, then that would be a problem too. The pressure regulator needs to be at the end of the injector rails to minimize the possibility of a gas bubble forming there. But its your bike Greg, build it however you want. Your cooling coils will probably work just fine up there in Washington state. If I ever convert my bike, I will do it correctly so that it works in all climates.
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December 14th, 2011, 06:53 PM | #86 |
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Here's a question for you: What's that big aluminum thingy with all those fins up in the front of my car called? Could it be a radiator? What does it do and how does it do it? Does it depend on evaporation to get rid of heat?
I'm standing by for your explaination of how a car's radiator manages to get rid of heat without using evaporation. (here's the catch: if you can explain my car's radiator then you do actually understand my fuel cooler setup.) Or, in the absense of a logical explaination of how a radiator works let me ask you another question: What do you folks way down there in Palm Beach, oh-so-hot-you-northerners-couldn't-possibly-understand, Florida use on your cars instead of radiators? I ask this because you're telling me (over and over again) that a radiator couldn't function in the "real" heat of a serious environment like Florida. And, yes, it is the same thing. Both the car's radiator and a fuel cooler are using the same principles to dump heat: 1. the high conductivity of aluminum and copper, 2. maximizing surface area with lots of fins, and 3. airflow over the radiator to carry away the heat. (and I do apologize to the forum community, I'd planned to let it end with my last post but I've been given no choice but to continue.) |
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December 14th, 2011, 06:57 PM | #87 | ||
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100deg... sounds pretty hot to me! I bet it gets hotter with the tank in the sun too... hmmm lemme think what this information supports... oh right, it works in the heat... almost forgot what all this bickering was about. Dude you buy everything you see that you dont have. Next time I come across a cool gadget/tool that i've been wanting to play with i'll just casually send you a subliminal message to buy it. Quote:
Back on topic... anybody else change their mind and wants to buy one with us? We still need atleast 1 more to get that added 5% discount. That's money we can use to get the welding done.
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December 14th, 2011, 07:05 PM | #88 | |
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I'm also going to ask them if we can get 25% off for more orders
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December 14th, 2011, 08:44 PM | #89 |
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Just wanted to add, the cooler setup that Greg uses works well since the heat from the fuel is rejected to the active air stream flowing through it into the carbs. That's an effective though unorthodox solution, a bit of elegant engineering that I admire.
The only reason I'm not on the buy list for this right now is that I'm not convinced that there's enough overhead in my electrical system to cover both the 35W this system draws and the power my electric gloves draw in the winter, despite having converted most of my lighting over to LED, particularly at the lower RPMs I frequently find myself running at in my day to day commuting. Were I to do this conversion I'd likely convert to a CA tank, keep the fuel cooler design like Greg's done, and attempt to keep the stock airbox because of the noise reduction and heavy water inundation handling abilities it has over aftermarket pods. I wonder if there's some way for me to rewind the alternator in my pregen to get more power? And n4mwd, was it really necessary to adopt a condescending and, frankly, insulting tone? And, regarding your comment about evaporating fuel keeping the fuel cool in the tank, that only works for the first few seconds to minutes until the vapor saturation point is reached in the air that's inside the tank. The vapor in the tank cannot escape from the tank in any meaningful quantities because of the design of the cap vent system. I took a cap apart, it has over 50 parts, many of which are designed to severely restrict the flow of vapor from the tank. Once the tank air is saturated the evaporation stops and any cooling effect from that evaporation stops as well. For all intents and purposes, fuel evaporative cooling in the tank is trivial, at best. You can do this experiment at home very easily. Get two bowls, a disposable plastic lid, and two thermometers. Put an equal amount of a fluid of your choice in each bowl, it can be water, it can be gasoline, it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this experiment. Now, set one thermometer in one bowl, and take the disposable plastic lid and poke the other thermometer through it. Install it on the second bowl such that there's no air leakage. Set the bowls somewhere and see which one's temperature rises fastest. My money is that it will rise fastest in the covered one. Edit to add info on the non-CA cap venting design: http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic...=801040#801040 |
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December 15th, 2011, 06:14 AM | #90 | |
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So you have an engine that needs to keep coolant at 190F. And you use a radiator to bleed off heat to a 100F OAT. What's the problem with that? Since you aren't trying to use the radiator to cool below 100F (or OAT in this example), I don't see how your example is relevant. But as to the aluminum thingy with fins, at first I thought you were talking about the car's A/C condenser coils. Now there is a better example. Although it is a closed system, the freon in the loop is purposely allowed to evaporate and is then re-condensed by the compressor forcing gas into the condenser coils. So inside the car we have the evaporator coils. Here the freon evaporates and cools the coils in the process and subsequently the interior air. Outside, the compressor takes the evaporated freon and squeezes it back into a liquid. Heat is given off by the compression of the freon as it turns back into a liquid. Thus the little aluminum thingy is used to bleed the heat off to OAT. Cutting to the chase, your petcock mod would be better than the fins for warmer climates. In your petcock mod, it doesn't look like the fuel actually returns to the tank, but the petcock should still be able to reasonably cool it since its directly attached to the tank. The best solution is to return it to the tank. If the petcock can't be modified to return fuel back to the tank via the vacuum port, then a new petcock will have to be made. This can be done by making a plate that will mate to the petcock bolts and solder two tubes through it. One is supply, the other is return. Then use an inline petcock to shut the fuel off when necessary. The ecotron guy said something about drilling a hole in the tank, but I am not thrilled with that idea either because it means you can't go back. Not every redneck knows how A/C systems work, but this one does.
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December 15th, 2011, 08:22 AM | #91 | ||
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It's like you're a Troll and you're doing this on purpose. I know I've read posts from you in the past that made sense, but now it's like some crazy person has gotten your log-in password.
So I try to get you to talk about (describe) a radiator which is a liquid filled system just like my fuel cooler and instead you go off on a rant about an Air Conditioning system which has nothing in common with either of them, AC is a gas filled system . You went totally off-subject. But before you went completely off-subject you tossed out this pearl of wisdom: Quote:
Then you give us this: Quote:
The evaporative effect you're trying (unsuccessfully) to apply to a return fuel loop is a simple atmospheric transition from a liquid state to a gaseous state and that does not happen in an AC system. Air conditioning is achieved through a carefully controlled series of pressure changes that can only be brought about by using a mechanical compressor to apply high pressure to force the gas into a liquid state. Obviously there are no compressors or condensor coils on either an automobile radiator or on a fuel cooler (because there's no gas involved, only liquids). There is no useful comparison that can be made between an air conditioning system and a cooling loop (like a car radiator or a fuel cooler). They are two totally different things, with totally different purposes. What is it with you and the word "evaporation" anyway? It's like you're in a contest to see how many ways you can misapply the concept. You really should stop posting on this thread. I mean, you do realize that there are lots of other forum members reading these posts? Several others have also politely tried to point out that you're very wrong about cooling theory, but you've either ignored them or you're not reading their posts. You're writing crazy stuff and forcing us to re-form our opinion of you. You're making a bit of a spectacle of yourself. If you want to retain any credibility on this forum, then stop it with the "evaporation" stuff now. Last futzed with by greg737; December 15th, 2011 at 11:23 AM. |
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December 15th, 2011, 09:09 AM | #92 |
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Greg is right, stop arguing. The fuel doesn't need to be below 100f, a good cooler will cool the fuel pretty close to ambient temps which is low enough to not boil. You'd die before your fuel boils from high ambients.
If you're looking for performance though you may want to run it to the tank. I like the custom part in the petcock hole idea. (that's a really odd thing to hear now that I think of it...)
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December 15th, 2011, 09:20 AM | #93 | |
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Adam, I don't understand this:
Quote:
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December 15th, 2011, 01:14 PM | #94 |
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Oh, right. It's after the rail. That was just something I was thinking about as I was typing. You'd probably benefit from not having it heat the air going in the intake though, but that could be negligible
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December 15th, 2011, 02:18 PM | #95 | |||
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I wonder if there's some way for me to rewind the alternator in my pregen to get more power? Not sure how that would work. Have you tallied up all the power consumption parts of the bike to see how much you have left? So far I have my GPS and heated grips drawing power. I cant imagine gloves changing it that drastically.
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December 15th, 2011, 02:19 PM | #96 |
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UPDATE: 10 buyers = 25% off!!!
Price with 25% off will be $450 + shipping and tax where applicable
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December 15th, 2011, 02:23 PM | #97 |
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Hahahahahaha that's ridiculous. We can barely get 5 and you got an inquiry for 10! Meh oh wells. No harm in trying. Come on community. Lets try something drastic.
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December 15th, 2011, 02:28 PM | #98 |
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Hey man, theres 8 people on the maybe list! Maybe 5% will change their minds?
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December 15th, 2011, 03:38 PM | #99 |
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id prolly do it im just lazy and dont want to install it.
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December 15th, 2011, 03:42 PM | #100 | |
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I was actually considering that if I finished installing this, i'd ride down to LA and also ride up to norcal to help with the install. Good time to test different conditions and get a great ride out of it as well.
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December 15th, 2011, 03:56 PM | #101 |
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Greg, calling me names is not going to change the laws of physics. I am going to stop posting here because what I have posted seems to have gone over everyone's head. All I can say is try it and see. All I was trying to do was to stop people from making a mistake. Maybe ask yourself why car manufacturers don't use your method. Its simpler and cheaper than running lines all the way back to the tank. But they don't.
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December 15th, 2011, 04:12 PM | #102 | |
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Car maunfactures don't use fuel coolers because they moved the fuel pump to inside the tank, it is easier to relocate the component than to add in extra hardware. The thermal mass of the fuel tank and fuel will effectively negate the energy input of the pump. Plus the tank will have convection around to be cooled to at least ambient. When cars had fuel vapor lock problems it was because fuel pumps were mounted on the engine block and the heat had nowhere to go. You may notice that vapor lock is not a common problem in modern cars. Can you both please just drop this discussion or move it someplace else as you are dragging this thread off topic. |
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December 15th, 2011, 08:48 PM | #103 |
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I'd do it if I had the money to just spend on this. But for now my carbs are working great
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December 15th, 2011, 10:41 PM | #104 |
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Count me in when its $450.
Last futzed with by lgk; December 15th, 2011 at 10:45 PM. Reason: bad grammar |
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December 16th, 2011, 02:05 AM | #105 |
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put me on the maybe list, thanks
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December 16th, 2011, 01:09 PM | #106 |
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Ok guys, the Group Buy will end on January 31st and orders will be submitted on February 1st. Any "Maybes" will be able to opt into the group buy at that time if they want to.
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December 16th, 2011, 10:24 PM | #108 |
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It's a possibility, are you going to put EFI on your.... oh nevermind
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December 16th, 2011, 11:31 PM | #109 | |
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Deal ends by Christmas Eve! Matt from Ecotrons |
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December 17th, 2011, 12:10 AM | #110 |
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I might be interested. I'm a bit concerned about installing all this though, since I'm not familiar with fuel injection system. I'm a little confused about the fuel return line, with a CA tank, which port do you re-purpose for this? I'll also need to find someone to weld the sensor bung for me. A few of you guys are in the bay area though, so maybe a group install? I probably will have to ride down to the south bay from Daly City though, since that seems to be where most of you are located.
let me do a little more research, as well as sell off some stuff (If I am getting this kit, I'm debating whether I should do it on the stock exhaust system or the muzzy system. If stock, I'll probably just sell the muzzy. Or maybe buy extra bungs do it on both). I'll let you guys know before the new deadline, though I suppose you guys already have enough to get 25% off now, since you do have 5 people if you include lgk. |
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December 17th, 2011, 12:19 AM | #111 |
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oh you evil
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December 17th, 2011, 12:21 AM | #112 |
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With the new tank valve to replace the petcock, no need to use any other hole on the fuel tank. It is a simple swap of petcock.
This has been added to Forbitel's post. Sounds like a lot of guys still don't know it yet. Tank switch 01.jpg Tank switch 02.jpg |
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December 17th, 2011, 12:51 AM | #113 | |
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Sign Me Up!!!
1. @Jiggles 2. @setasai 3. @Daves2JZ 4. @flynjay 5.@EMSRacer07 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. @lgk Ill be ur 5th guy Quote:
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December 17th, 2011, 12:59 AM | #114 | |
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Quote:
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December 17th, 2011, 01:06 AM | #115 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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MOTM - Apr '13
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If the first 5 are 25% off, then what does everyone else get?
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December 17th, 2011, 01:06 AM | #116 |
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Let's up the antie even more and suggest 30% if we can do 10 by Christmass!!!!!
I'm in it to win it!!
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December 17th, 2011, 01:14 AM | #117 |
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This is one-time deal. I need some cash to pay holiday bills. After Christmas, deals back to 20% for 5 kits, or maybe even worse deals.
I want to promote the first GB! There are many guys are still standing by. |
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December 17th, 2011, 01:24 AM | #118 | |
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Quote:
1. @Jiggles 2. @setasai 3. @Daves2JZ 4. @flynjay 5. @EMSRacer07 So I guess we will keep the GB open until the 24th and if 5 more people want to hop in (10 altogether) then all 10 will get 25% off right? Paging all maybes! Now is your chance, are you in or out? 1. @lgk 2. @sombo (will it work with the pre-gens?) "Yes it will." 3. @saxnbass (if local mechanic will install it; I'm afraid of screwing up doing it myself) "Cmon you can do it!" 4. @massacremasses (if someone else will do it for him) 5. @etiainen (pending upon functional bike) 6. @Felipe the Ant (Scrounging up some bank) 7. @randomwalk101 8. @n4mwd 9. @Fly'in Ninja
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If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
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December 17th, 2011, 01:38 AM | #119 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: MI
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 169
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December 17th, 2011, 05:38 AM | #120 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Jason
Location: Norfolk, VA
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2012 EX250, 2014 EX300 Posts: A lot.
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Im in
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