May 24th, 2011, 02:01 PM | #121 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Chris
Location: Arkansas
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I realized something while I was out this past weekend. Though I always roll on after entering the turn, I realized that modulating throttle in the turn determined my course just as much as leaning. If I got too close to the center line, a little throttle on pulls me back into the proper lane position and I feel I have MORE control.
Ironically, in a turn, I feel like I have more control with the throttle than I ever would with the brake. I think I have a small fear of using the rear-brake(too many high side videos watched), only using it to supplement a pull on the front brake for a short stop. |
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May 24th, 2011, 03:12 PM | #122 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: T
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Quote:
Just YouTube someone racing and when they come off the corner hard and wheelie, you can see the bike holding the lean angle that was previously dialed in. You can certainly still use the bars/clip-ons to adjust your lean mid-corner, but one and done should be how you enter a corner, finishing it up with the throttle.
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June 6th, 2011, 03:24 PM | #123 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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This video explains it all.... (don't let the name of the vid fool you)
Link to original page on YouTube. |
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June 8th, 2011, 01:45 PM | #124 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
While it is important to know what to do in a situation where you have made a mistake (ie. entering into a turn too hot) it is also important to learn how to avoid making that same mistake again. So how do you learn to set your entry speeds correctly for a corner? How do you do this on a corner you have never seen? Misti
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June 10th, 2011, 03:47 AM | #125 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Domagoj
Location: Rijeka, Croatia
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Quote:
Take a tire, and roll it. It will go straight, while it has enough speed to keep it straight, and as it has no power of its own, it will slow down gradually and lean to one side. As it looses more speed, lean will increase, and radius of the turns it is traveling will decrease. So it will converge to the center point in a short spiral. Eventually it will loose enough speed to lean more and eventually drop to the ground to the most stable position. I think that same will happen to the motorcycle, if you cut the power while leaned over. Radius of the curve you are traveling at will decrease, if you don't move the bars. The problem is that this will happen too slow. Bike will not loose enough speed in time to make the turn, so you will go wide. The point is, you don't go wide because you released the throttle, you go wide because you didn't push the inside bar enough. These 2 normally come together when a survival reaction kicks in. This is consistent with the fact that the mass distribution alone is not enough to effectively steer a motorcycle, as it is shown in Keith Code's book and film. (the bike does change direction, but not fast enough) It is also consistent with the fact that you release the throttle while turning the bike, and apply it only after the bike is turned. I agree completely with the rest of the text. |
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June 10th, 2011, 10:14 AM | #126 | |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
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Quote:
I'm also not sure I understand the 2nd quote from you (above). You should NOT release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn. Releasing the throttle engine brakes which sends more weight to the front of your bike which can upset the suspension. Under braking (engine braking included) and with a trailing throttle the weight of the bike tends towards the front and loads the front tire so that it’s more likely to lose traction in a corner. The tire has to work harder and the suspension becomes compressed and can’t deal with bumps well. Just some thoughts to consider.
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June 10th, 2011, 10:21 AM | #127 |
Mr. 988
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June 10th, 2011, 04:19 PM | #128 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Domagoj
Location: Rijeka, Croatia
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Quote:
By turning the bike, I meant initiating a turn, leaning the bike from perpendicular to whatever angle. Once leaned (the bike is traveling along the arc you want it to), you apply the throttle easily. Let us test the theories, by traveling slow enough, without danger of loosing grip because of bad front-rear mass distribution. |
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June 13th, 2011, 11:55 AM | #129 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
As for the second part of your post, I just want to clarify one thing that seems a little confusing and it may just be semantics. You say that you should "Not release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn." This all sounds correct but I just want to clarify that the throttle should be OFF when actually turning the bike and then cracked on ASAP once the bike is at the lean angle you desire. Then it should be rolled on evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn as you describe. You want to make sure that your turning/steering is DONE before you crack on the gas, so essentially when you turn the throttle is off. You get all your braking, downshifting etc done before turn in, turn the bike and THEN get on the gas. This is one of the reason's that your rate of turning (how quickly you get your bike to the lean angle you desire) is so important because the sooner you get your turning DONE the faster you can roll on the gas. Cheers, Misti
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June 14th, 2011, 10:43 AM | #130 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: T
Location: U.S.
Join Date: May 2010 Motorcycle(s): Current: '11 ZX-6R; Previous: '09 Ninjette; '08 ZX-6R (Ex-Wife '09 TU250X) Posts: 981
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Misti, great information. Though I would point out that some bikes are incapable of having the throttle off as you enter the turn. My wife's TU is one of them. When riding the bike hard, which is amazingly entertaining, going off the throttle before a turn would kill what little speed is built up.
I am not being contrary. I fully support your statement, and ride like that myself. I am just pointing out on the really small bikes with lackluster power, well there is no power to roll on. If you let off the throttle you slow yourself before you hit mid-corner.
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June 18th, 2011, 05:58 AM | #131 |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
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We're heading up there next weekend spending one night at the Iron Horse and playing around on the Dragon and the Cherohala, and then taking the BRP up to Ashville.
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June 18th, 2011, 06:10 AM | #132 |
GDTRFB
Name: Drew
Location: SE PA
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 - sold 2005 EX500R project Posts: 496
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Ack! The one weekend I'll be out of town :/
Great itinerary though. The BRP out of the park is a nice stretch. I just walked in from an early AM ride at the gap. (Nice and empty) Have a great time. Posted via Mobile Device |
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June 18th, 2011, 10:13 AM | #133 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: T
Location: U.S.
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Quote:
The only problem with the roads we ride is the condition of some of them. In addition, there seems to be gravel all over the place sometimes. I think it must be from four-wheelers as we live in a somewhat rural area. And I get them confused: BRP or Cherohala, which is the Skyway? And do you know which one was on Top Gear? Beautiful area, but 400 miles at 35-45 mph? No thanks.
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June 18th, 2011, 10:43 AM | #134 |
GDTRFB
Name: Drew
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I don't know where you are but there is a reason why people come from all over to run the gap. I agree with much of what you are saying. I do not go when it is busy. It is hardly worth my time. It is also dangerous. I have seen really bad riding and driving there. I have also seen some really skilled riders as well. The motard guys are craziest! That's a sweeping generalization but damn, they go fast. Both the Cherohala and Blue Ridge Pkwy are 45mph but still they are twisty and beautiful. There are amazing places to ride here in E TN and W NC
Posted via Mobile Device Last futzed with by oroboros; June 18th, 2011 at 12:21 PM. |
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June 18th, 2011, 12:21 PM | #135 |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
Location: Athens, GA
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Cherohala is the skyway...and worth every mile you have to drive to get there! The Cherohala is not patrolled much at all and traffic has always been low when I've been, and its speed limit isn't set as artificially low as that at the Dragon. Neither is the BRP (Blue Ridge Pkwy). There are only occasional rangers on the BRP who can ticket, no "real" cops. I've been several times and seen one ranger in all my trips. The Dragon is where the cops hang out, but the cool thing is there are nearly always 2 stationed there (not more), and once you've taken the road a time or two, you know where they are. Granted, sometimes they do relocate, but many, MANY other bikers will alert you they are ahead by tapping their helmet. It's worth the risk. Anyone who loves the twisties should at least make the trip once IMHO.
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June 18th, 2011, 12:23 PM | #136 |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
Location: Athens, GA
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Wow, so your stomping grounds have 318 different types of mountain twisties in an 11-mile stretch???
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June 18th, 2011, 12:48 PM | #137 | |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
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Quote:
This is an awesome question and one I still struggle with at times too. I usually have a slower entry speed than ideal for a few reasons. #1 I'm on the street and want to keep enough traction in reserve to alter my line or stand her up and brake if there's a hazard ahead. #2 Admittedly, I don't really know how to set a perfect entry speed for a corner I've never seen, particularly a blind one when it's impossible to see very far ahead of you. So I'd love to hear other people's responses to Misti's question! I would never try to keep up with my hubby on his bike in the mountains...ok, well, I did try once and Lil Ninj and I suffered for it. He's a natural and is a better rider than I could ever hope to be, however, I've never understood how he can set such perfect entry speeds in unfamiliar corners and always come out unscathed (knocking on wood several times here). We usually ride twisty roads more than once, so I do tend to get more comfortable and able to take corners a bit faster after the first time through, though I'm still cautious of animals and folks who might be on the road ahead of me. I'd love to hear everyone's ideas! How DO you learn to set your entry speeds just right for corners you've never seen?
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June 18th, 2011, 12:51 PM | #138 |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
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Delayed apex
On a slightly separate cornering topic, there are so many different lines from which to choose when going through a corner. I know Lee Parks recommends choosing a delayed apex line. I'd love to open up some discussion regarding this type of line choice. The logic is (correct me if I'm wrong because I'm always a work in progress!) that by delaying the apex, you ride the outside of the turn a bit longer (ie: delay the turn in), and when you do your turn in, you do more of a quick flick to the inside of the corner (getting the lean over with quickly) rather than spending a longer time leaned over and riding the outside line of the corner. Delaying the apex results in getting the brunt of your lean done in a quicker amount of time so that traction is maximized for a longer amount of time. Is this correct? What are the pros and cons of using this type of line when riding corners?
Edit: Sorry, just realized I posted the last 4 posts in this thread.
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June 19th, 2011, 12:56 AM | #139 |
ninjette.org member
Name: sean
Location: socal
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): '13 Monster 696 ABS, '08 250R Ninja, Black (Sold), Posts: 47
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You are correct.
Late Apex (from experiences in autoxing and karting. The bike is still a work in progress ) Pros: - Allows to carry your speed deeper into the corner (passing/overtaking) - Get on the throttle sooner (with maximum tire contact patch) - better field of view - Safer in street/canyon riding/driving - old addage is always true "slow in fast out" - minimizes the time spent into the corner (as you mentioned) which reduces your vulnerabilities from outside factors Cons: - Not the fastest line (aside from normal apex), but the most practical for the street and canyon riding where there are a lot more variables that come into play. - If racing, the normal apex line (most cases) allows for better setup for the next corner. The late apex will cause you to be inside of the line and will have to make up the position by outbraking again (and possibly go wide). (Sorry I watch too many MotoGP and F1 races) |
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June 19th, 2011, 09:35 AM | #140 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: T
Location: U.S.
Join Date: May 2010 Motorcycle(s): Current: '11 ZX-6R; Previous: '09 Ninjette; '08 ZX-6R (Ex-Wife '09 TU250X) Posts: 981
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Quote:
Second, I mentioned that a friend who has been to the Dragon on several occasions made that comment to me. I wasn't making the statement. Third, based on videos of the Dragon, yes I do believe the roads I have available to ride around here are every bit as fun and challenging as what I have seen in the videos. I also believe my friend, who has six years riding experience in several different states across the county. So when he tells me he prefers some of the roads we have around here to the logistics of riding the Dragon, or prefers a shorter trip into Helen to ride the north Georgia mountains, I am not going to argue. Do we have 318 turns in 11 miles on a single road? Not quite, but yes I have access to extremely serpentine roads. I would say the biggest issue with our local roads is the quality of some, whereas the Dragon seems to have new pavement in every video I see, regardless of age. I guess all those speeding tickets add up.
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June 19th, 2011, 10:42 AM | #141 |
GDTRFB
Name: Drew
Location: SE PA
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 - sold 2005 EX500R project Posts: 496
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Not to hijack this great thread but you have a "local friend" if ever you do visit the area. If you want to just armchair the Dragon tune into Killboy's weekly blog. It highlights the crazy, stupid, weird and wonderful!
http://killboy.blogspot.com/ Last futzed with by oroboros; June 19th, 2011 at 11:55 AM. |
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June 19th, 2011, 11:32 AM | #142 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Whodat
Location: Ware Is.,MA
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Drew, that Porsche sounded so sexy!
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June 19th, 2011, 12:08 PM | #143 |
GDTRFB
Name: Drew
Location: SE PA
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Yes indeed! I was not able to make the hillclimb event but it looked like a good time
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June 19th, 2011, 12:15 PM | #144 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: eddie
Location: Lawnguylind
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ooooh,ooooh,,,pick me...I know the answer about the hi slides.
Push down with your right foot on the pedal |
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June 19th, 2011, 12:16 PM | #145 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: eddie
Location: Lawnguylind
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 300, WeeStrom Posts: A lot.
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how did this answer get on this thread ?
sorry guys |
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June 19th, 2011, 01:47 PM | #146 | |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
Location: Athens, GA
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Quote:
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June 19th, 2011, 04:32 PM | #147 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: T
Location: U.S.
Join Date: May 2010 Motorcycle(s): Current: '11 ZX-6R; Previous: '09 Ninjette; '08 ZX-6R (Ex-Wife '09 TU250X) Posts: 981
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Quote:
You guys feel free to enjoy it though. I prefer not to push it on the street and I don't like speeding tickets. I'd prefer not to be another statistic on the Dragon, especially if it is caused by someone else.
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June 19th, 2011, 04:43 PM | #148 |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
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To each his own! We all love riding for different reasons. Ride safe!
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Sometimes it's the journey that teaches you a lot about your destination. ~Drake Check out my Appalachian Trail journal, 2015! Postwhores are COOL! ~Allyson |
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June 19th, 2011, 04:46 PM | #149 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: T
Location: U.S.
Join Date: May 2010 Motorcycle(s): Current: '11 ZX-6R; Previous: '09 Ninjette; '08 ZX-6R (Ex-Wife '09 TU250X) Posts: 981
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Back at ya'.
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June 21st, 2011, 01:42 PM | #150 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): currently: Yamaha YZF 250 dirt/motard Posts: 787
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Quote:
It basically comes down to visual skills. Riders that are able to pick their lines and maintain a decent entry speed into a corner simply have better visual skills than those that are over slowing or braking too much. Our visual skills dictate our "perception of speed." If we don't feel like we are going in to a corner too fast then we maintain our confidence to carry that speed through the turn. So, how do you learn to improve your visual skills so that you aren't over slowing for a turn? Think about a corner that you know you over slow for, what tends to happen to your vision as you approach that corner? Does it narrow down? How does a narrowed down field of vision effect your sense of speed? Misti
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June 21st, 2011, 01:54 PM | #151 | ||
ninjette.org sage
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): currently: Yamaha YZF 250 dirt/motard Posts: 787
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Quote:
This brings up another good riding technique that goes really well with a delayed apex type of line (and it also ties in to your earlier question about faster entry speeds) and that is something that we call the 2-step at the California Superbike School. Basically what a lot of riders do is they LOOK (into the turn) and TURN their bikes at the same time. When you do this you have very very little information about the corner that you have just turned into. We like to see our students LOOK into the turn first....wait..... and then turn their bike. Not only does this give you much more visual information about the corner but it also changes your perception of speed because you are visually one step ahead of your bike. Thoughts on this? Misti Quote:
Cheers, Misti
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June 21st, 2011, 02:07 PM | #152 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jacob
Location: Michigan
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This might have been covered before, but what about shifting up during a corner? I find myself revving the bike pretty high sometimes in a corner when rolling on, it'd be nice to go up a gear, but I was taught in MSF not to do anything that will reduce speed or power during a turn. How does that work?
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June 22nd, 2011, 05:00 PM | #153 | |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
Location: Athens, GA
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Quote:
The video also touched on the 2-step that you mentioned. Look through the curve, wait, and then flick it with a determined push of the bars rather than a lazy, slow push. Those are the things I plan to work on this weekend in the Smoky Mountains. Of course, I'll ride like I'm on the street, not on a track, but I love having goals and things to work on each time we head up north! Thanks so much for your words of wisdom !
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June 22nd, 2011, 05:26 PM | #154 |
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June 24th, 2011, 12:13 PM | #155 | |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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Quote:
Misti or a more experienced rider may provide more advanced advice, but I don't up shift until I have the bike mostly upright coming out of the corner. In fact... if you can actively PULL the bike up, you can crack harder on the throttle earlier and gives you something to do in the later part of the curve instead of letting the other acting forces push the bike upright. If you want to improve a lap time don't be lazy in the last part of the corner. If all you did was roll on and flow through the corner, you missed your chance at the end to gain a bit more speed on exit. Yes I did say PULL. For example; your counter-steering into a left corner. 1. look for entry point 2. look for apex 3. find line 4. adjust entry speed and gear 5. look through curve to keep your line 6. with your peripheral vision find your marker to begin the corner (make sure its not early), drop and fall in 7. begin roll and continue line [Begin more advance technique] 8. post apex and near end of corner, the bike will have already begun to come upright, this is when you can influence the bike to get it upright faster by pulling with your left hand. The bonus is you get on the throttle harder and faster. You can roll the throttle at the same time as you pull, but keep control. We don't want to do wheelies on the 250 now..... [End more advance technique] If you want to up shift in the corner, the time is way post apex....., after the bike is mostly upright and your line is secured.
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June 24th, 2011, 01:13 PM | #156 |
KThanksBye
Name: Kevin
Location: Orange County
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Dont shift at redline in a corner (Well from 1st gear to 2nd at least) The front end of the bike will come up, little sketchy
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June 25th, 2011, 12:28 PM | #157 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Anon
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Today during my ride I decided to focus on practicing throttle control in a variety of situations including cornering. I'm aware of and practice the early throttle roll-on, but I realized I don't have a good idea as to exactly how much throttle should be used.
Since I'm pretty nerdy, my first thought was to do a quick calculation: I remember Keith Code stating in Twist of the Wrist that the acceleration to get the correct forward/backward weight distribution is something like 0.1 - 0.2g for modern sportbikes. I figured since our ninjettes have narrower rear tires than your average racing replica, we should probably be at the low end of that scale (ie, slightly skewing weight to the front since our rear contact patch is relatively smaller). 0.1g turns out to be just a bit more than 2 miles per hour per second -- in other words, every second, your speed should increase by 2-5 MPH. 2mph / sec is actually quite a bit smaller than I thought! Is there a good way to know that you've hit the proper amount of throttle while street riding? Although I don't have any track time, it seems like close to the edge of traction the tires would provide feedback (ie, the rear starting to slide means you should probably not throttle so hard next lap). On the street, however, I'm not exactly willing to push that hard :P. Any suggestions for finding the sweet spot? |
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July 8th, 2011, 10:09 AM | #158 |
ninjette.org Monkey Spank
Name: Kevin
Location: Illinois
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250R Track-Bike Woodcraft clip-ons and rearsets FZ-6 track bike Posts: A lot.
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You can, and I have upshifted mid corner. Make sure its the 2-3 or 3-4 or 4-5 shift. Do it quickly and clutchlessly.<-- if thats a word
The more upright the bike the better, although I have shifted at apex before. (I would rather wait to shift on exit when the bike is more upright, but it can be done at apex.) BE SMOOTH and try not to upset the bike too much.
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Black 250R Full Area P QC Dyno Jet Kit 100 main 41T Rear Sprocket |
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July 8th, 2011, 10:12 AM | #159 | |
ninjette.org Monkey Spank
Name: Kevin
Location: Illinois
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250R Track-Bike Woodcraft clip-ons and rearsets FZ-6 track bike Posts: A lot.
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Black 250R Full Area P QC Dyno Jet Kit 100 main 41T Rear Sprocket |
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July 11th, 2011, 11:13 AM | #160 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Nicholle (Nikki)
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Kawasaki Ninja 250r Posts: 39
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