Do you use your rear brakes and when?

[Coolbpf]

Originally Posted by drac

With a locked rear you still have a reasonable amount of control over the motorcycle. Lock the front and you have no control over the motorcycle.

This is assuming you are an average to below average rider as most here are.

Avoid locking the front at all cost............ The only exception to this is during racing conditions. On some tracks there are corners that you can slide(not lock but slide) the front end through.

High sides hurt more but with the locked back you don't even have to crash as you do with the locked front... Just my opinion. Like this guy says ^

[thurt88]

I use it every time I expect a complete stop or if I hit a turn too hot. My question is, why wouldn't you?

[JohnnyBravo]

If I'm still Rollin and goin slow I have always been able to get where I'm goin using only the front... Don't see why I would if I've never had a problem, and that's naturally how I do it

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

Slow speed front... Normal to fast both as taught in the MSF, dunno why I don't always use both as taught, but different strokes

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

If I'm still Rollin and goin slow I have always been able to get where I'm goin using only the front... Don't see why I would if I've never had a problem, and that's naturally how I do it

The rear will give a much smoother stop from a slow pace, try it

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

The rear will give a much smoother stop from a slow pace, try it

Roger wilco

[thurt88]

Probably from my motocross experience as a kid. If u lay on your front brakes in the mud, you will wipe out. In the air your likely to case the jump. On dry ground at speed, your likely to endo.
Just makes sense to use it.

[redsuns03]

I mainly sue my front brake for slowing and stopping while I use both only in emergency situations like panic stops etc. Rear brake is handy when you're at the intersection waiting for the green light lol.

[grnninja]

always for city riding,

1) saves my balls from nailing the tank,
2) keeps the gf from booping helmets, sliding into me and again me nailing balls on tank.
3) to come to a much smoother stop than using just the fronts.
4) pulling in the driveway, i park my bike parallel to the garage door, between the door and the gf's car, it allows me to be more precise.

[hirubhaiambani]

I use my rear brake almost all the time. I feel I have better control, even if I lock the rear slightly.

Last weekend, I was going downhill in the twisties and tried negotiating a right hander…I leaned in and realized the turn was much sharper than I expected and I had too much speed. I scrubbed off speed using only the rear. I locked it up, left a huge skid mark on the road but did not crash…If I had touched the front, I surely would have fallen down off the hillside.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by hirubhaiambani

I scrubbed off speed using only the rear. I locked it up, left a huge skid mark on the road but did not crash…If I had touched the front, I surely would have fallen down off the hillside.

No, and no. Sometimes it's better to be lucky.

[alex.s]

using the rear to slow down mid corner never made any sense to me... if you need to slow down why not pick it up for a click on the brakes and drop it back down? you can be so aggressive on the brakes up and down... brakes while you're leaned over just sounds like a bad time.

[ninjamunky85]

Sometimes on the street you don't have room to stand the bike up before hitting the apex, so you need to trail brake.

And I almost always use both brakes, just seems like common sense to me. I mean what happens when one day you need to use the rear brake and you have no experience using it?

[dfox]

always. Probably only at 20% of it's capacity, but it's always doing something. It's quite effective to gradually shift weight to the front break before going hog wild on that.

I lightly press it while scrubbing speed via engine breaking to activate the rear brake light so cars behind me know I'm actually slowing down, even though I'm not applying the brakes.

i use it as a signal a lot too, since a light tap on it will activate my rear brake strobe and let people know i'm there... sitting at a stoplight, someone approaching, let off brakes, put brake back on to get the strobe.

i find tapping it to activate the rear brake (especially with the strobe I have) is effective at getting tailgaters to back off.

[b.miller123]

Originally Posted by alex.s

using the rear to slow down mid corner never made any sense to me... if you need to slow down why not pick it up for a click on the brakes and drop it back down? you can be so aggressive on the brakes up and down... brakes while you're leaned over just sounds like a bad time.

Standing up the bike mid turn causes you to go wide. Tapping the rear brake a little mid turn will cause you to scrub a little speed and actually tighten up your line.

When most people think of using the brakes mid corner, they think of how most use them upright: slam the throttle shut, grab a handful of front brake. Do this on the track while leaned over and obviously you'll go down. When I use the rear brake mid corner, I don't let off the gas. There is no massive upsetting weight transfer to the front that unsettles the suspension like slamming the throttle shut and grabbing the front.

I usually use the clutch mid corner instead of the rear brake about 75% of the time though. Depends on which way the corner goes.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by b.miller123

When I use the rear brake mid corner, I don't let off the gas. There is no massive upsetting weight transfer to the front that unsettles the suspension like slamming the throttle shut and grabbing the front.

I usually use the clutch mid corner instead of the rear brake about 75% of the time though. Depends on which way the corner goes.

What is the difference between that and coming off the throttle a bit?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by b.miller123

Standing up the bike mid turn causes you to go wide. Tapping the rear brake a little mid turn will cause you to scrub a little speed and actually tighten up your line.

When most people think of using the brakes mid corner, they think of how most use them upright: slam the throttle shut, grab a handful of front brake. Do this on the track while leaned over and obviously you'll go down. When I use the rear brake mid corner, I don't let off the gas. There is no massive upsetting weight transfer to the front that unsettles the suspension like slamming the throttle shut and grabbing the front.

I usually use the clutch mid corner instead of the rear brake about 75% of the time though. Depends on which way the corner goes.

why are you using brakes mid corner at all?

[ninjamunky85]

A turn ends up being sharper than you thought it was when you began to enter it. If it hasn't happened to you then you are either the greatest rider ever, or just slow.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by kkim

I use my rear brake (in addition to the front brake), when I want to slow down and/or stop.

Yup,this.
I had to emergency brake once and slightly feathered the rear, and should have engine braked which i didn't

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

A turn ends up being sharper than you thought it was when you began to enter it. If it hasn't happened to you then you are either the greatest rider ever, or just slow.

Please correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't braking with the rear mid turn widen your turn? I thought throttle sharpened your turn while braking widened it. Throttle= more lean, braking = brings you up straight.
AM i wrong?

[anacron]

Originally Posted by allanoue

What is the difference between that and coming off the throttle a bit?

A couple of difference with clutch vs throttle:
You would be able to maintain engine revs with the clutch and closing the throttle would lead to engine braking whereas the clutch would slow you down through friction alone.

I would think closing the throttle would be slightly more abrupt since you have friction in addition to the engine slowing you down.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by anacron

A couple of difference with clutch vs throttle:
You would be able to maintain engine revs with the clutch and closing the throttle would lead to engine braking whereas the clutch would slow you down through friction alone.

I would think closing the throttle would be slightly more abrupt since you have friction in addition to the engine slowing you down.

i believe "lash" is the word you are looking for.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by anacron

A couple of difference with clutch vs throttle:
You would be able to maintain engine revs with the clutch and closing the throttle would lead to engine braking whereas the clutch would slow you down through friction alone.

I would think closing the throttle would be slightly more abrupt since you have friction in addition to the engine slowing you down.

I did not say close I said

coming off the throttle a bit?

meaning just a little. The throttle has more then two positions.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by xaple

Please correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't braking with the rear mid turn widen your turn? I thought throttle sharpened your turn while braking widened it. Throttle= more lean, braking = brings you up straight.
AM i wrong?

the radius of your turn is determined by the wheel base of the bike, the speed of the bike, and the angle of the rear wheel. slower speed, smaller radius.

using the brakes compresses the forks which actually decreases the wheel base a bit which makes it easier to turn. however using the brakes compresses the wheels too which stands the bike up. and obviously you cant brake very hard leaned over. on the throttle is interesting because it will pick up the front and make your turn "tighten up". but at the same time adding more speed widens your turn radius. so the best scenario is braking until your turn in at a correct speed, turn in correctly and then gas out.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by allanoue

I did not say close I said
meaning just a little. The throttle has more then two positions.

staying on gas and using rear brake eliminates chain lash. letting throttle off without rear brake loosens the pull on the rear wheel from the chain, which can give slack on the chain for a moment until the bike slows to the engine speed at which point the chain loses its slack and gives a bit of a pull. known as chain lash.

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by xaple

Please correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't braking with the rear mid turn widen your turn? I thought throttle sharpened your turn while braking widened it. Throttle= more lean, braking = brings you up straight.
AM i wrong?

First of all I don't brake mid turn with the rear, only with the front. And yes braking will cause the bike to stand up, but you can counter this by leaning more. Thus allowing you to maintain your line while slowing going into the corner.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

First of all I don't brake mid turn with the rear, only with the front. And yes braking will cause the bike to stand up, but you can counter this by leaning more. Thus allowing you to maintain your line while slowing going into the corner.

adding brake and lean angle is asking to lose the front.

[ninjamunky85]

You aren't adding lean angle, only maintaining your current lean angle. But since the bike wants to stand up you have to lean a little more to prevent that.

It is a balancing game, but you should never be using all of your traction on the street so you should have a little extra at all times. It's certainly better than going wide and colliding with oncoming traffic.

Edit: I don't do it often, but like I said some times a corner surprises you.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

You aren't adding lean angle, only maintaining your current lean angle. But since the bike wants to stand up you have to lean a little more to prevent that.

It is a balancing game, but you should never be using all of your traction on the street so you should have a little extra at all times. It's certainly better than going wide and colliding with oncoming traffic.

Edit: I don't do it often, but like I said some times a corner surprises you.

heres the problem with what you are saying. if you have that extra wiggle room, instead of adding brakes you could simply lean more.

if you don't have the extra wiggle room, what are you going to do? you are going to stand up, hit the brakes, and put the bike back down.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by allanoue

I did not say close I said
meaning just a little. The throttle has more then two positions.

The degree of throttle closing isn't the issue, its the fact that you have an additional force acting to slow you down instead of just friction.

To be more precise, you could (in theory) achieve the same results with the throttle as with the clutch. However, you would need to close the throttle just enough to simulate the initial decrease in power from clutching in and then maintaining that throttle input.

I would suspect that, in practice, this wouldn't be possible due to the additional variables in play with the throttle.

[ninjamunky85]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

Try it sometime. It's a good technique to add to your riding skills.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

Try it sometime. It's a good technique to add to your riding skills.

i don't think you know what trail braking is actually used for...

[anacron]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i believe "lash" is the word you are looking for.

I've always heard of lashing in the context of too much play in the chains from the get go, which is typically rectified by maintaing proper chain tension.

Whereas, the slack you're mentioning is derived from decreasing throttle input and reducing power to the rear. Is chain lash appropriate here as well (I ask out of ignorance)?

Another reason why I didn't think it was appropriate was because engine braking is also present when reducing rpms and you could add chain slack as a side effect of the general act of decreasing power to rear.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by anacron

I've always heard of lashing in the context of too much play in the chains from the get go, which is typically rectified by maintaing proper chain tension.

Whereas, the slack you're mentioning is derived from decreasing throttle input and reducing power to the rear. Is chain lash appropriate here as well (I ask out of ignorance)?

Another reason why I didn't think it was appropriate was because engine braking is also present when reducing rpms and you could add chain slack as a side effect of the general act of decreasing power to rear.

lash comes from the entire drive train not just the chain. there is play in the transmission, the clutch, the chain, even the rear wheel has a cush drive that has play in it with rubber dampers to try to help soften the lash.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

First of all I don't brake mid turn with the rear, only with the front. And yes braking will cause the bike to stand up, but you can counter this by leaning more. Thus allowing you to maintain your line while slowing going into the corner.

This seems wrong... using the front brake at speed should cause the bike to lean more rather than less. The rear brake is the one that will cause the bike to stand up because its use generates a restoring torque.

If you're interested in learning about the physics of motorcycles, I'd highly recommend reading: Motorcycle Dynamics by Vittore Cossalter.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by anacron

using the front brake at speed should cause the bike to lean more rather than less. The rear brake is the one that will cause the bike to stand up because its use generates a restoring torque.

If you're interested in learning about the physics of motorcycles, I'd highly recommend reading: Motorcycle Dynamics by Vittore Cossalter.

Hmmmm.... K. Code and Vittore C. would have very interesting conversation about what happens when you brake (or roll off) in a corner.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Hmmmm.... K. Code and Vittore C. would have very interesting conversation about what happens when you brake (or roll off) in a corner.

I suppose they would...

I was looking for a book that actually wrote out the equations of kinematics and dynamics and looked at motorcycles from a purely theoretical and physics perspective. I'm currently in grad school and taking classes in quantum mechanics and such, so as you might imagine I quite prefer a detailed physics analysis especially when it's written by a professor of applied mechanics and reads like a textbook

[ninjamunky85]

Whatever, all I know is that sometimes I brake when going into turns and I haven't wrecked yet.

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by anacron

This seems wrong... using the front brake at speed should cause the bike to lean more rather than less. The rear brake is the one that will cause the bike to stand up because its use generates a restoring torque.

If you're interested in learning about the physics of motorcycles, I'd highly recommend reading: Motorcycle Dynamics by Vittore Cossalter.

Slowing the bike down is what causes it to stand up. Doesn't matter which brake you are using.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

Slowing the bike down is what causes it to stand up. Doesn't matter which brake you are using.

compressing the front tire creating a larger contact patch is what picks up the bike.

[hirubhaiambani]

Originally Posted by Alex

No, and no. Sometimes it's better to be lucky.

I bet I am very lucky. I think I instinctively used the rear and not the front since I was already in a lean.

Lesson learnt: When riding unknown twisties, its better to go slow and familiarize yourself first. Going 45-50mph when the indicated speed is 20mph is STUPID.

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

A turn ends up being sharper than you thought it was when you began to enter it. If it hasn't happened to you then you are either the greatest rider ever, or just slow.

This is exactly what happened to me. It was a blind corner and I misjudged my entry speed. Since I was in a lean, standing the bike up would mean running wide and probably off the hillside too.

EDIT: Yes, the bike did stand up using the rear brake and locking it. Although it did not run wide.

[Panda]

Some more information on why a bike wants to stand up in a turn.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/to...?TOPIC_ID=8752

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=255