CW Magazine 250 Shoot out

[Sailariel]

Latest issue does a "Shootout " between the Ninja and the new Honda 250. I think that the Ninja did quite well--can't say that I was surprised by the results. I think that for the money, the Ninja is a better deal--although the Honda costs less in upkeep. The Ninja still looks much more serious and has a tougher appeal.

[Xoulrath]

It did quite well? I don't think I can agree with you on that one. I got that issue in the mail yesterday and read the article as soon as I got my grubby little hands on it.

I was honestly disappointed. I expected them to pick the Honda as best all-around, what with available ABS and FI as standard. I also expected them to say the Honda would be the better commuter bike thanks to the thumper motor and torque coming online sooner. What I didn't expect was for them to say the Honda would beat the Ninja in the twisties, but they did. Maybe it is better, I can't say for sure, as I haven't even seen a new CBR250R, much less been given seat time on one. Even though I love my Ninja and think it looks more aggressive, I'll be honest, based on FI and that review, had the CBR been available last year I would be rockin' Honda Red instead of Kawi Green.

OK, the Ninja did win the drag race, but I'm not sure how accurate those numbers really are. I know they are 250s and they aren't quick at all, but most 0-60 times I have seen for any of the Ninja 250s have been in the 5.5 second range. In addition, I have several times "raced" my wife for lack of a better word as she drove the car somewhere when I decided to ride. She lost the 0-60 by a car length and started pulling away from me after I was at 70. This is in a 2007 GTI w/DSG. Based on what I know of the GTI, the Ninja seems to be running a 5.5 - 6 second 0-60, and that is with a 270 lb pilot on board. I would have expected the e.t. of the 1/4-mile to be lower 15's with a trap of 85+ mph. I wonder if something was wrong with the tests, or maybe the numbers weren't converted to standard sea level conditions like a lot of publications do. Who knows.

Oh well, the Ninja still rocks and I have been loving every minute of it. I don't regret purchasing it.

[KJohnson21]

Here's another comparison at the Motorcycle USA website:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/9/9134...inja-250R.aspx

The Honda only had a noticeable advantage in one category. It seemed that the carb'd Ninja's worst failing in this comparison was its starting difficulties. If they'd been using the fuel injected version of the Ninjette it would have been no contest.

[Alex]

I'm not sure I understand why they felt the Honda was lower maintenance solely based on valve check interval. The Honda needed it at 600 miles and 16000 miles. The Ninja needs it at 7500 miles and 15000 miles. So for the vast majority of owners that won't take either bike past 20,000 miles, the valve check costs are going to be pretty close (unless it's that much quicker to do it on the Honda, as a single perhaps that would make sense).

[Shiloh]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm not sure I understand why they felt the Honda was lower maintenance solely based on valve check interval. The Honda needed it at 600 miles and 16000 miles. The Ninja needs it at 7500 miles and 15000 miles. So for the vast majority of owners that won't take either bike past 20,000 miles, the valve check costs are going to be pretty close (unless it's that much quicker to do it on the Honda, as a single perhaps that would make sense).

Yes, the Honda being a single has 1/2 the valves plus the Honda has a valve/ cam arrangement that allows shims to be changed without removing the cams.

Valves are activated by a rocker arm that the slides to the side for access to the shims. I think the setup is similar to the prior gen Ninjas' setup for the valves / cams.

But the difference in cost over 20,000 miles is a very nearly zero per mile.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Shiloh

Yes, the Honda being a single has 1/2 the valves plus the Honda has a valve/ cam arrangement that allows shims to be changed without removing the cams.

Valves are activated by a rocker arm that the slides to the side for access to the shims. I think the setup is similar to the prior gen Ninjas' setup for the valves / cams.

But the difference in cost over 20,000 miles is a very nearly zero per mile.

Yeah I read that about the shimming not needing to remove the cams.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Shiloh

Yes, the Honda being a single has 1/2 the valves plus the Honda has a valve/ cam arrangement that allows shims to be changed without removing the cams.

Absolutely, but doing the ninjette's valve check is like 1.5 hrs of shop time if a service is happening already; honda is still going to be an hour. At some point the differences in cost aren't going to amount to much.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

It did quite well? I don't think I can agree with you on that one. I got that issue in the mail yesterday and read the article as soon as I got my grubby little hands on it.

I was honestly disappointed. I expected them to pick the Honda as best all-around, what with available ABS and FI as standard. I also expected them to say the Honda would be the better commuter bike thanks to the thumper motor and torque coming online sooner. What I didn't expect was for them to say the Honda would beat the Ninja in the twisties, but they did. Maybe it is better, I can't say for sure, as I haven't even seen a new CBR250R, much less been given seat time on one. Even though I love my Ninja and think it looks more aggressive, I'll be honest, based on FI and that review, had the CBR been available last year I would be rockin' Honda Red instead of Kawi Green.

OK, the Ninja did win the drag race, but I'm not sure how accurate those numbers really are. I know they are 250s and they aren't quick at all, but most 0-60 times I have seen for any of the Ninja 250s have been in the 5.5 second range. In addition, I have several times "raced" my wife for lack of a better word as she drove the car somewhere when I decided to ride. She lost the 0-60 by a car length and started pulling away from me after I was at 70. This is in a 2007 GTI w/DSG. Based on what I know of the GTI, the Ninja seems to be running a 5.5 - 6 second 0-60, and that is with a 270 lb pilot on board. I would have expected the e.t. of the 1/4-mile to be lower 15's with a trap of 85+ mph. I wonder if something was wrong with the tests, or maybe the numbers weren't converted to standard sea level conditions like a lot of publications do. Who knows.

Oh well, the Ninja still rocks and I have been loving every minute of it. I don't regret purchasing it.

Based on another review, the problem with the honda being a commuter is the lack of top end. It seems to struggle past 65 because the power band on it is shifted down low.

What the honda really seems to be is targeted to the countries which have a larger rider population than cars, like Indonesia. The low end torque would make it ideal to commute in those situations where there aren't many opportunities to get it past 50. The honda would probably fair better in a comparison if the reviewers were from those countries.

Also, as stated in the other review, the FI makes it easier to start up, but it really doesn't do much else. People need to realize that FI is great if your engine has potential to make more power. If the Honda can't take advantage of the FI in terms of modifying, then the FI "advantage" is lost.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

Based on another review, the problem with the honda being a commuter is the lack of top end. It seems to struggle past 65 because the power band on it is shifted down low.

I haven't seen that in any review; I have seen in posts where people expected it to struggle due to its engine design. But all reviews mention that it does just fine on the highway, and doesn't struggle much more than our ninjettes do on the highway. It hits 80 mph easily, and will nudge 90 mph (both actual) in the right conditions. It's within 2 hp of ninjette peak power, and both bikes are at close to peak power when cruising at fast highway speeds.

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

Also, as stated in the other review, the FI makes it easier to start up, but it really doesn't do much else. People need to realize that FI is great if your engine has potential to make more power. If the Honda can't take advantage of the FI in terms of modifying, then the FI "advantage" is lost.

Fuel injection isn't always about making more raw power. Sure FI makes the bike easier to start up but as for it not doing much else, you need to do more research there. The clear advantages of FI is that the bike is more fuel efficient and produces lower emissions. Not to mention the added advantages of more efficient operation at different temperatures and elevation and less frequent maintenance vs. carbs. Honda is not marketing the 250 single as any type of high end race performance motorcycle. Fuel economy is probably more important than top end power in countries where motorcycles out number cars.

As for it struggling at highway speeds, I have not read any reviews that outright states the Honda having a problem as a highway commuter. My impressions from the numerous reviews I have read suggests that the CBR250R should be adequate for most types of normal daily commuting. A user review from Thailand has stated that the bike is fast all the way up to 140 km/h before power starts to disappear. For an average North American rider all geared up, I'd suspect that the power delivery should be adequate up to 130 km/h or so.

On a related note, the CBR250R has been chosen by the Royal Malaysian Police as their motorcycle of choice (more pictures in the link):http://motomalaya.net/blog/2011/02/1...olice-edition/

[coondog]

Honda made a nice donation to that rag mag, that's for sure. And Honda made a huge mistake going back in time and using a single for such a small engine.

[Snake]

Originally Posted by coondog

Honda made a nice donation to that rag mag, that's for sure. And Honda made a huge mistake going back in time and using a single for such a small engine.

I agree that going with a twin cylinder would have been a better choice and would have put the bike over the top.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Alex

I haven't seen that in any review; I have seen in posts where people expected it to struggle due to its engine design. But all reviews mention that it does just fine on the highway, and doesn't struggle much more than our ninjettes do on the highway. It hits 80 mph easily, and will nudge 90 mph (both actual) in the right conditions. It's within 2 hp of ninjette peak power, and both bikes are at close to peak power when cruising at fast highway speeds.

from the first review posted:

The biggest difference is the cruising speeds on the freeways. The Honda has to work harder in order to keep pace on the freeway once you reach that 55-65 mph range, running near top speed and vibrating more than the Ninja 250. This makes it tougher to pass when the time comes, as one isn’t left with much breathing room to get around the faster cars ahead. The Kawasaki isn’t exactly a high-speed racer, but it does give a few thousand more rpm to play with when overtaking slower traffic.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Boom King

Fuel injection isn't always about making more raw power. Sure FI makes the bike easier to start up but as for it not doing much else, you need to do more research there. The clear advantages of FI is that the bike is more fuel efficient and produces lower emissions. Not to mention the added advantages of more efficient operation at different temperatures and elevation and less frequent maintenance vs. carbs. Honda is not marketing the 250 single as any type of high end race performance motorcycle. Fuel economy is probably more important than top end power in countries where motorcycles out number cars.

Making raw power is all about how efficient your fuel is burning. Find me one car that doesn't make 500hp and runs rich. I'm willing to bet you won't find one. When we tune cars, you tune so that you make the most power right? Making power means finding the point at which you make the most out of burning as much fuel and air as you can. Granted when making a large amount of power, you need large amounts of fuel. So that kills fuel economy, but the efficiency is far better than you would find from a factory car. Most manufacturers build motors to run slightly rich. I'm not saying carbs > FI. I'm just saying that FI shouldn't be the end all, be all when comparing these two bikes.

Knowing honda's engineering, it's possible they tweaked the engine so much that making any extra power out of it will be extremely hard.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

from the first review posted:

Yep, I see that now; had missed it first time through. I wonder why they got that impression while others didn't. For what it's worth, that bike was 4 hp down on the particular ninjette they had on hand, so maybe it was on the lower end of Honda performance.

I don't want to watch it again right now but I'm sure these guys review mentioned the Honda lacking in highway top end in comparision to the Ninja.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/9/9134...inja-250R.aspx

[CThunder-blue]

I don't want people to misunderstand me when referring to FI. FI is indeed better for fuel economy, ease of tuning, and making some good HP. It would be really cool to see how a FI ninjette would compare to the honda. All things being equal, I bet the FI ninjette would stand out far better. Just don't hang your hopes and dreams on a 250cc bike, just because it has FI. Engine design plays a large role in how that FI will be used.

[Sailariel]

My experience with FI has been that the fuel delivery is more uniform which gives more even acelleration and performance in the twisteys. Carbed bikes rely on gravity to feed the carbs--FI uses a fuel pump that feeds the throttle body.

A Thumper is a totally different handling machine from a twin. My experience with several thumpers that I have owned/ridden is that a single can handle the twisteys in a smoother fashion than a twin--add FI fuel delivery to that, and you have quite a machine.

In the past, thumpers vibrated a lot at higher speeds--example Royal Enfield, Velocette, AJS, and BMW. My NSU 250 was almost unbearable at 60mph. The Zundapp was smoother primarily because it was a two-stroke.

According to the article, Honda seems to have addressed the vibration issue, so the new 250 will by no means be a Retro experience.

I have ridden twins for so long that in all honesty, I would not be interested in a single. I do plan on trying one out for grins and giggles. I'm sure that my Honda dealer will let me--after all, I did buy a new bike from him.

[caferacer]

I was disappointed when i found out the honda was a single. Singles just run out of breath on the top end. For such a small displacement I would always go for the twin. Honda would really get my attention if it had been a CBR250R/4 cylinder !!

[almost40]

Originally Posted by caferacer

I was disappointed when i found out the honda was a single. Singles just run out of breath on the top end. For such a small displacement I would always go for the twin. Honda would really get my attention if it had been a CBR250R/4 cylinder !!

They would have everyones attention and of course my money!!!

[littledog]

To me the nijna has barely enough power for the highway. Any bike with less power is, in my estimation, less than barely enough on the highway.

It may still be a great around town and commuter bike.

[Bill N]

The Kawa is definitly a great commuter and I prefer it big time over my other two liter bikes. But I'm also very impressed with its 60 to 80 MPH performance. The motor is sweet at 60 and gets to 80 without complaint. It won't kick ass pass on the Interstate but it can go with the flow.
Bill

[coondog]

She loves going 80 @ 11k and wants to all day long.

[TrueFaith]

While I've read the review that CThunder-blue noted about highway riding, it's been the only one I've seen that's had that opinion so far. The several reviews and first rides I've read since that was originally posted do not seem to have the same opinion of the CBR250R's highway performance. Since it's redline is lower most of the reviews state how "busy" the Ninja's motor is at highway speeds compared to the Honda and that the CBR250R is quite capable for commuting on the freeway. Since I rarely ride the highways, it's not really an issue for me at all anyway.
One thing that's often aggrivated me about my Ninja is the stutter and hesitation that's always there off the line because of the carbs. Dispite all the performance mods and carb tweaking it's still always there weather the bike is warmed up or not. The Honda has apparently solved this annoyance with more botton-end torque and FI.
It also appears to shift much smoother than the Ninja and since I think the Ninja has one of the clunkiest transmissions I've ever ridden you can bet that got my attention. The Yamahas I've owned have always shifted like butter, so I've always thought the Ninja was a little rough around the edges in that category.
The Ninja is a great bike and does what it was designed to do, but if something comes along that improves certain facets of a bike's performance and personality while maintaining the things that make it a great bike, you'd have to be daft not to seriously consider it.

[caferacer]

Good points...I am just glad that Honda stepped up to the plate and built the thing. Some competition will keep Kawasaki honest and always looking over their shoulders. The Ninja 250R has not had anyone else in the fray since the VTR250 interceptor. I am glad to see the big 4 not neglecting anymore. I wonder what direction Suzuki will go with the GSXR250?

[randomwalk101]

So what we need is a FI conversion kit for our ninja 250

[Raven]

Saw the magazine. The CBR sounds good for requiring less maintence. Even though it won't be the fastest 250. But to put it in perspective, 250 market as of now is all about saving gas as much as possible so it won't be anything nuts like supersport inspired 250's. I wonder how much fun it will be beating it around considering it looks much smaller than 2nd gen ninja.

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

So what we need is a FI conversion kit for our ninja 250

John, Did the recon on that--biker sister lives in Europe. A "kit" to convert to FI would cost a fortune.

There is a chap on this forum (I forget his name--a commercial pilot from Spokane WA) who did an FI conversion on his pre-08 Ninja. It did not sound like an easy conversion. He sounds like he is technically quite savvy

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by Raven

Saw the magazine. The CBR sounds good for requiring less maintence. Even though it won't be the fastest 250. But to put it in perspective, 250 market as of now is all about saving gas as much as possible so it won't be anything nuts like supersport inspired 250's. I wonder how much fun it will be beating it around considering it looks much smaller than 2nd gen ninja.

Neil, My perspective is that the Honda will be a fine bike for the twisties, a fine commuter, and a fun track bike. Its shorter wheelbase and geometry should make it very flickable--I'm basing that on my bicycle building experience. As I said earlier, a thumper is a different experience than a multi.

To quote the reviewer of the Honda NT-700 V, "It is as advertised and does it well" The same could be said for the 250.

[Bill N]

It's all good and chances are I'd be happy with the CBR. Competition keeps the manufacturers on their toes. One poster commented about stumbling caused by the carbs off the line. My 2008 just doesn't do that. Also I'm amazed at the smooth shifting of my Ninjette, a light clutch pull and slight foot pressure and I'm singing down the highway. It's smoother than my Yami FJR and my previous B12 Suzuki. So me thinks that a reported problem from one rider may not reflect correctly on the whole product line. If I have one complaint about the Ninjette it's the too low gearing in 1st and 2nd gear. From there I'm happy with the gearing as the little bike has pull from that point on. I'll probably remain stock but changing the sprockets likely would resolve this issue. I'm looking forward to seeing the new CBR and would like to do a side by side stock bike comparo.
Bill

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

There is a chap on this forum (I forget his name--a commercial pilot from Spokane WA) who did an FI conversion on his pre-08 Ninja. It did not sound like an easy conversion. He sounds like he is technically quite savvy

Hi Alex - I think you're talking about greg737. He put together two fantastic threads about his FI conversion project.

Thread 1
Thread 2

[CZroe]

Their "updated for 2008 'Petrol Pinchers'" article reveled to me that some of the contributors to that mag don't really know what they are talking about. For one thing, they only updated the MSRP and picture of the 250R despite a large drop in claimed and actual MPG (85 down to 61). Their impressions of it vs. all the scooters and the Buell Blast made it clear that none were serious riders. This artcle may have been contributed by similarly uninformed contributors.

[coondog]

Originally Posted by caferacer

Good points...I am just glad that Honda stepped up to the plate and built the thing. Some competition will keep Kawasaki honest and always looking over their shoulders. The Ninja 250R has not had anyone else in the fray since the VTR250 interceptor. I am glad to see the big 4 not neglecting anymore. I wonder what direction Suzuki will go with the GSXR250?

what kills me is yamaha and suzuki OWNED the class in the 80's and now ......ZIP?

[CThunder-blue]

I dunno. My bike has a jet kit and full exhaust. I've never had problems launching. The only times it feels like it bogs is from mishandling the clutch. I think a well tuned ninjette shouldn't have problems in any range from a stand still to redline in 6th. There may be factors in any person's bike that may cause individualized problems. Granted, they do likely run lean from the factory and an owner shouldn't need to modify the bike to get it running right. That does give the Honda a +1. Like I said before, I think the bike was designed around the world market in mind and not the extensive highways we have in the US. If anything, a sprocket change on the Honda may just make it a great highway commuter. I probably won't get one because I think it's ugly and I paid cash for my bike. One less monthly payment is awesome. My next bike will definitely have more hp.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Neil, My perspective is that the Honda will be a fine bike for the twisties, a fine commuter, and a fun track bike. Its shorter wheelbase and geometry should make it very flickable--I'm basing that on my bicycle building experience. As I said earlier, a thumper is a different experience than a multi.

To quote the reviewer of the Honda NT-700 V, "It is as advertised and does it well" The same could be said for the 250.

I'm not taking a jab at the Honda. Just saying the smaller size of it with less weight makes me excited. It's one of those bikes that can let you worry about yourself than bike. Instead of both. When I had to use my 08 250 as an emergecy back up, I'd just love to full throttle it anywhere without worrying about it instead of 600 that will give you variable results.

[GeorgiaHooligan]

i wish aprilla would give us a street leagal 250

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

i wish aprilla would give us a street leagal 250

Indeed...

[Jerry]

Is a single cylinder sportbike in the 350-500 range...THEN I'm in...

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by Jerry

Is a single cylinder sportbike in the 350-500 range...THEN I'm in...

I'll agree with you on the displacement. We can work out engine configurations later. Now we just need some manufacturers to agree with us.

[Bill N]

Originally Posted by Jerry

Is a single cylinder sportbike in the 350-500 range...THEN I'm in...

For me with gas in Florida at $350 per gallon and expected to go higher...I'm just fine with the little 250R performer just as it is. I like 60MPG on my daily city commute plus the fun factor this litlle bike delivers.
Bill