Decreasing radius downhill turn....

[Jiggles]

Won't be doing that again.

[Alex]

[Jiggles]

Only evidence I have is the log in my pants, you want that?

[Jiggles]

But wait, if I go the other way on that road... Then it becomes an increasing radius uphill turn, and that sounds like fun!

[choneofakind]

Hook turn.

csmith12 and I have talked a lot about this on here. It's a great skill to have in an emergency.

hang wide as long as you can. Hook in by hanging off further and getting your shoulders down/in even further to right the bike a little bit, and then countersteer further. You hook, and the bike wips right around.

then take the corner again, but slower

[Jiggles]

Well **** lets talk about downhill turns because I'm as confused as balls on what to do with these. Usually with downhill turns I'm engine braking in a low gear and use the front brake to regulate my speed. Accelerating through a downhill turn just seems silly no? So usually I just try to go slower and maintain a constant speed through the turn.

I'd imagine you can't lean as far because all the weight is on the front tire and that would cause something to slip out (front tire, rear tire? IDK)

So what I did when I realized the road was turning faster than I was is I maintained my constant speed and leaned in more and more till I made it through the turn. Scared the **** out of me I don't like downhill turns at all, they just make me uncomfortable so I was going a slower rate than I do through a normal turn which I guess is what saved my butt.

[choneofakind]

Downhills are tricky because you need to be on the brakes more to peel off speed. Rolling on the throttle through the turn is important because that's what keeps the weight balance right so the bike is stable while turning, doesn't matter if it's an uphill or downhill turn.

Slow down further before turning in. Then roll on like normal. You'll feel like you're flying through it because the downhill will accelerate faster than normal, but you don't want the front end loaded because you didn't roll on. Roll on and get that rear end loaded!!

Slow in, fast out. On a down hill, slower in, fast out. That's how I do it and don't sh!t myself.

Also, when in doubt, lean off further and look deeper through your turn. When I was at Mid-ohio and having trouble on the keyhole, I had to force myself to look through the exit immediately instead of looking partway through the turn and then looking down the straight after getting to apex. That made all the difference in getting me to not focus on how fast I was moving and focus more on how the bike was rotating through the turn.

[Jiggles]

I need to work on that, especially now that I have a bike with some balls. I find myself very often maintaining speed or accelerating very lightly through turns. Do you think I should slow down more than I normally enter a turn and accelerate more as well?

[choneofakind]

Slow down more. Accelerate the same as always.

You have a bike that can spin the wheel if you goose it too much. Accelerate fast enough to keep the bike balanced and happy through the turn and you'll be fine.

Have you had enough time to get a good idea of how the bike feels when the rear squats through turns? Go by that feeling when rolling on the gas.

[Jiggles]

The bike has an insane amount of power so I usually do the twisties in 6th unless there are slower parts. Its still in the "break in" period so I'm trying to keep it under 6k rpms which is actually really really easy lol

I haven't noticed the bike "squatting" but I do notice that it likes to turn in (causing it to want to stand up) unless I give it enough gas

[alex.s]

noob, those are the best kind of turns

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

The bike has an insane amount of power so I usually do the twisties in 6th unless there are slower parts.

This will make downhill corners, and corners in general, more challenging than they would be otherwise. Keeping it at higher revs and lower gears helps with the engine braking while rolling off, and also makes the rear end that much more responsive when you do roll on. On the 10R, I'm often in 1st or 2nd in the tighter corners, even though it would have plenty of power in the higher gears at those same road speeds.

[Jiggles]

I guess you could say I ride the 1000 like I ride the 250. Part of it is I don't want to regularly rev over 6k until I do the 600 mi service on the bike (coming up soon), the other part is I'm still easing into riding the 1k. I ride in 6th to limit the acceleration and also the engine braking. Since I'm riding it like my 250 I'm maintaining/slowly accelerating in turns (I'll break this habit). In my head I'm thinking ok, in case I hit too much throttle or drop it off completely it won't be as bad as if I were in a lower gear.

I'm more concerned about dropping the throttle in a turn and unloading the rear but again I think that issue is coming from not riding through turns correctly. The difference between maintaining speed and no throttle is small (non existant on the 650 which is why I hated it for the twisties) I think if I give it more gas through turns I'll feel/be in more control, and if that means slowing down to enter a turn then so be it!


Side note about the 1k, I find it hard to smoothly shift using the clutch but it's easy to be smooth when clutchless shifting. I think it has to do with how quickly the engine revs up and down when its not engaged. If I shift super fast using the clutch I can be smooth but if I do what feels like a normal shift I always get jolted. And blipping for downshifts, man I over rev it every time

[EsrTek]

Entering turns speed is about the hardest factor for me to get comfortable with.
I rather not crash going in to hot, so I am in habit of entering probably too slow...but I do like coming out of corners

A lower gear will really help, I used to do top gear too. However the guys advice on the last rally solved that one. It really does help and the engine braking can help slow you down better if you do enter too fast.

[Jiggles]

I don't really need more engine braking at this point. The way I ride, if I'm going to take a turn at 50mph then I was probably riding the straights at 60. So maybe I should ride the straights at 100 so I can make use of all that engine braking?

Slowly but surely



A week or two ago

[alex.s]

i think what alex was trying to say is that if you use correct throttle control, the things you are "fixing" by being in 6th gear will turn from problems to assets.

proper turning means putting weight on the back tire, which means accelerating, which means slowing down first.

[psych0hans]

Like what Alex and Eric said, don't keep the bike in too high a gear. When I do twisties, I rarely leave 3rd gear. I find that the higher the gear you're in, the more chance you have of reaching a speed you'd rather avoid. The places I ride in, you can't realistically exceede speeds of 40mph, so it doesn't hamper me too much. On one occasion a downhill left handler scared the s**t out of me, when I felt I was going too fast, one quick glance at the speedo told me I was doing 40mph in the turn. It took all that I had in me to not get off the throttle and f**k things up... Lol

[rojoracing53]

Hook turn is what we racers call a late apex and that's fine if you knew that corner was coming. As far as a surprise down hill decreasing radius it's similar to most dirt bike turn(no front traction, no trail braking the front), because your wieght is all over the front already trail braking the front becomes riskier. This is one of the very rare moments that I'll touch my rear brake and I will LIGHTLY trail it in to bring more wieght on the rear tire. This is only for those who can control they rear brake smoothly, it helps with my cut rotors because they reduce the power of the rear and allow for more modulation(Plug)

Controlling the rear brake smoothly also applies to the clutch when down shifting, if you down shift and just drop the clutch it's the same as jabbing the rear brake. You want to think of the clutch lever like a backwards front brake and release it smoothly and apply engine braking the same way you apply rear brake. The clutch method it what I use all the time and why I've never had to replay rear pads in any street bike if ever owned.

I think of riding a 1k or a 250 as the same thing, both are capable of carving a corner nearly the same so your entry speed is very similar but the braking point may be slightly sooner because of a bit more wieght. When you exit a corner on the 250 you apply 90% throttle(24hp) and on the 1k you apply the same HP with only 15% throttle.

It's easier to teach this stuff first hand in person at the track then explain it in text. Signing up of a normal track day and pull on the ear of the local AMA racer while your there can teach a lot for cheap if he's cool with it.

[geeker]

Have you read Total Control by Lee Parks? Parts two and three go in to great detail about dealing with fear and later on he handles proper corning tactics for such scenarios as you describe.

Maybe I'm describing this wrong, but you want to slingshot out of a corner. You want to go in at a manageable speed and delay your turn in as far in to the corner as possible. Look for your turn-in spot while pre-positioning your body, and then quickly initiate the turn in while looking at your exit point. At this point, you roll on the throttle to stabilize the suspension and help hold your line through the turn.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

When you exit a corner on the 250 you apply 90% throttle

only 90%?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by alex.s

only 90%?

Sorry I'm still just a noob and not man enough for 100%

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Sorry I'm still just a noob and not man enough for 100%

just blame the jetting...

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

.........Usually with downhill turns I'm engine braking in a low gear and use the front brake to regulate my speed.....
I'd imagine you can't lean as far because all the weight is on the front tire and that would cause something to slip out (front tire, rear tire? IDK).....

Downhill taxes the front rubber a little more; hence, front braking should be avoided.

High rpm's are better; low rpm's is like coasting down with clutch-in.

Downhill introduces a natural acceleration (which you normally achieve by cracking the throttle).

If that natural acceleration is more than 0.2 G, smooth rear brake should be used.

Now the reduced radius means that your entry speed needs to be modulated for the last portion's radius rather than the first portion's radius.

If the hook curve catches you by surprise, straight the bike up in the middle of the curve and brake hard to shave speed, then resume turning.

[Xoulrath]

...are the best kind of turns!

Solid advice already given so I won't bother to repeat what has already been said.

I do want to point out that you should really work on rolling off the throttle to avoid "dropping" it. And I'm sure you've checked, but make sure your throttle is adjusted properly. That can make a huge difference in control through the corners.

[paterick4o8]

I was up on 9/35/84 this AM w/ the zx6r.. first time taking her in the twisties.. like you to compensate for the much higher power (compared to the 250r) I was in 5th or 6th gear but it was a bit scary for me still. my buddy recommended that like Alex said, switch to higher rpms and lower gears as engine breaking would be better.. once I did that (and threw my tank bag over my back as it bothering my riding position) it made all the difference and I was back with my group the rest of the ride.

If you were the BARF ride I think we passed by you all on 35, one guy had a neon vest on.

Oh by the way, decreasing downhills are fun! just keep looking ahead and have a steady throttle, if I break I lightly use my rear.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Hook turn is what we racers call a late apex

I hope your not or oversimplifying a skill that you could be using. Dirt riders call it "squaring off" a corner. The equivalent skill to a street/track rider is "hooking" as taught by CSS.

You want to get to 100% throttle before your average rider? Post apex, look through that rider in front of you, hook a little and then pick it up earlier taking advantage of your tighter line. Really obvious on a bigger bike, on a 250 not so obvious because your most likely pinned at apex.

Anyway....

Jiggles, you already know braking mid-turn is mostly a no-no, breaks rule #1 and lessens your available traction, lowers ground clearance and so on bla bla bla..... You can hope your have enough pavement to roll off, repoint/steer and get back on the gas. OR...... Look, Lean and drop your head and shoulders WAAAAAYYYYY down and WAAAAAYYYY to the inside. Guess what will happen.... you will tighten your line and continue on your marry way. If your not able to lick the back of your hand, your head is not down and over far enough.

Did you know this road? If not, the source of this event is not setting an apropriate entry speed for an unknown corner. Also, you know you got this on video, let's see it!

Link to original page on YouTube.

This is one case where an emergency skill is also disguised as a racing technique. Some will see the rider dive in hard like this and swear they countersteered more to change their line. And until you actually do it on purpose it's not really apparent what is going on or how it may help in this case.

rojoracing53 is right about not being able to learn this stuff by reading. Chone knows what I am talking about because we covered this specifically in the pits and he knows how to do it after some odd laps at the track where there are 2 really big corners where the fastest line through them requires a hook action.

geeker response also has a lot of merit here as well. I would bet you may have turned in to early only making a already decreasing radius corner even worse. On the street, hand out a bit longer scrubbing speed until you can see your apex.

And alex.s is almost right, the best corners are uphill, blind, off camber and the geography allows you will wheelie/jump over the hump. Technical and scary fun!

[rojoracing53]

Last corner at Valencia is down hill decreasing radius coming off a good sized sweeper, was able to transfer the Dunlop stick on tattoos on my front tire to the rim via tire flex. So if your ever in Spain for a few days I'd say that's a good turn to practice at

Just be safe on the streets and canyons and save the real fun for the track.

[Jiggles]

@csmith12 Yea it was a road I had never been on before. I was just riding around and saw a road that looked fun. Unfortunately it is not on camera because I have run out of gopro mounts so currently, no way to attach a camera to the 1000.

I wasn't jamming through it like I do on a road I know but it still caught me off guard, plus my discomfort with downhill turns had me going even slower. I know slowing down in turns is not good, I still do it sometimes though

I think what I'll do tomorrow is practice a steady acceleration through corners, which will mean entering far slower than I normally do

[Jiggles]

Question is should I do it on the 1k or the 250?

I go faster on the 250

[Aufitt]

You have more chicken strips than KFC.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

You have more chicken strips than KFC.

[Aufitt]

And you are proud of them lol.

[Jiggles]

Sure am, leaning that far on IRC's is like playing with fire

[Aufitt]

Standard front IRC, they did ok.

[Ninja Chris]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

...I haven't noticed the bike "squatting" but I do notice that it likes to turn in (causing it to want to stand up) unless I give it enough gas

This is exactly what I noticed when I tested the 1000 during Kawi's demo event. Of all the bikes I was able to test, it's handling felt closest my 250, except for that one trait of wanting to stand up, where as Constance (the aforementioned 250) feels neutral through the turns. Oh, the power was a bit different as well

[Jiggles]

I read that changing the stock rear to a 195 solves that issue. But It's not really a bad issue, its sort of like if the bike is trying to stand up, then you are not accelerating hard enough

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

Standard front IRC, they did ok.

Here you go



For anyone that doesn't know, the size of your penis can be determined by the formula (1/((Engine CCs in Liters)*(Chicken strips in cm))) inches

Judging from Aufitts pic I'd estimate he is rocking 1/(.25*.5) = ~ 8in. possibly even 10. I'm not quite sure how to calculate girth but perhaps @chode can weigh in on that

[Aufitt]

Set the sag correctly for your weight, get the tyre pressures right (not too hard)
but dont blame the bike.

Body position body position body position.... and correct lines
Relax your grip,
Wide entry, late apex , get your fat head & body off and 'kiss the mirror' and those decreasing radius turns will be enjoyable.

[Jiggles]

Too aggressive for me on the street, but maybe at the track

[geeker]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Too aggressive for me on the street, but maybe at the track

This can be done without dragging a knee around the corner. It's all about keeping your weight inside of the bike's centerline. It enables the bike to turn with less lean so you can save as much traction as possible.