I great photo to demonstrate how being crossed up

[JeffM]

, even a little, will increase your lean angle. Look at the difference of lean angle between the two bikes. Then look at the body position of the riders.

Not saying that anything is particularly wrong here but I thought it was a good illustration how subtle things can affect your riding.

[nickjpass]

Looks like the rider in front doesn't even have a sport bike.. at least not a super sport. Also, the yellow rider has pilot powers 2 on. He'll be fine haha

[mheitman]

right click, save as..

excellent illustration. thanks for posting.

[CycleCam303]

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but the bro in the back doesn't look to different when @rojoracing53 decides to get a little more aggressive in the street. He doesn't lean the bike that far over but he does get crossed up when there is a rock wall right next to him.

[JELY1990]

^I think people like rojo are an exception though. Unconventional body position just works for them for some reason when it doesn't for others.

The pro, Mike Doohan for example was a pretty successful racer, but his body position wouldn't be considered good by many.

[CycleCam303]

Jason will do that on the street to be more comfortable. He changes his body position based on the need and bike.

Crappy pic but he isn't crossed up here.

[nickjpass]

Leaning too far off is bad as well. Have you seek Marquez? Or almost any motogp rider... many of them are so low they can't hang off haha

[alex.s]

it looks like there is another car coming in the other lane and the rider is picking his head up to keep from hitting it

[csmith12]

I will say again;

"If the track has the traction and the tires have the grip, you can be awarded many freedoms of how your positioned on the bike." Street in this case.... it seems.

I am not so sure about the first pic either, 80/20 both riders have their spine in line with the bike and there would be better examples photos of crossed up. It's just some riders look like they have a broken neck while riding.

Besides, aren't we are looking at it wrong anyway? Take the first pic as an example; Who has a higher margin of safety? Who can roll on harder? Who can hit the brakes harder?

[rojoracing53]

Do you guys realize how much work it is to get your whole body into a proper racing position I'm just to damn lazy to do it unless I absolutely have to.

Some call it lazy, other call it efficient, I call it whatever

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Besides, aren't we are looking at it wrong anyway? Take the first pic as an example; Who has a higher margin of safety? Who can roll on harder? Who can hit the brakes harder?

Chris nails what I was attempting with the photo post.

The lean angle of each bike is what is important.

Doohan was an alien. He doesn't count.

Jeff

[Live2ride]

I see the rider on the orange bike WAY too close to the rider infront of him. That's definitely not safe....poor judgement if you ask me.

[JELY1990]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Chris nails what I was attempting with the photo post.

The lean angle of each bike is what is important.

Doohan was an alien. He doesn't count.

Jeff

Ya I don't get how Doohan was able to ride so fast like that.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

Leaning too far off is bad as well. Have you seek Marquez? Or almost any motogp rider... many of them are so low they can't hang off haha

Leaning is not optional.
That angle is the lateral forces / weight ratio.
That ratio is exactly the same for any rider+bike that turns the same circular trajectory at the same speed.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JeffM

, even a little, will increase your lean angle. Look at the difference of lean angle between the two bikes. Then look at the body position of the riders.

Not saying that anything is particularly wrong here but I thought it was a good illustration how subtle things can affect your riding.

I think it's a really good illustration of how subtle things can affect your riding. Small changes can make a huge difference and in this particular photo you can see that the body positions on the two riders aren't drastically different and yet the second guy has much more lean angle. People think it's cool to lean their bikes over as far as they can go (I remember being dead set on scraping pegs and cleaning my tires from edge to edge) but as csmith12 says, "Take the first pic as an example; Who has a higher margin of safety? Who can roll on harder? Who can hit the brakes harder?"

The guy out front has a much higher margin of safety because he is carrying less overall lean angle.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Leaning is not optional.
That angle is the lateral forces / weight ratio.
That ratio is exactly the same for any rider+bike that turns the same circular trajectory at the same speed.

I didn't say you don't have to lean?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

I didn't say you don't have to lean?

You are correct, Nick.

But since we are discussing different degrees of lean angle, I wanted to clarify that the same radius of turn and the same speed take the same lean angle and put the same stress on the tires.

Sorry for quoting your post as example for making my point.

Again, you are correct: hanging off becomes difficult for extreme lean angles.
However, that is necessary evil for such extreme speeds.
There is no way for competitive riders to avoid that situation.

[nickjpass]

Sorry I just misunderstood you! But yes, you're right hah.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Motofool

You are correct, Nick.

But since we are discussing different degrees of lean angle, I wanted to clarify that the same radius of turn and the same speed take the same lean angle and put the same stress on the tires.

Sorry for quoting your post as example for making my point.

Again, you are correct: hanging off becomes difficult for extreme lean angles.
However, that is necessary evil for such extreme speeds.
There is no way for competitive riders to avoid that situation.

You say that "hanging off becomes difficult for extreme lean angles."

What do you mean by that? why does hanging off become difficult and are there things you can do to make it easier?

Misti

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Misti

You say that "hanging off becomes difficult for extreme lean angles."

What do you mean by that? why does hanging off become difficult........?

This:
Less room between side of bike and track.

[rojoracing53]

I hate when I run out of room to lean off the bike

[backinthesaddleagain]

I always thought this was a cross up, not to be confused with a scrub, as in a Bubba scrub, as in James Stewart, as in JS7.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Motofool

This:
Less room between side of bike and track.

Ahhhhhh gotcha

Ya, I hate when that happens too

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by Misti

You say that "hanging off becomes difficult for extreme lean angles."

What do you mean by that? why does hanging off become difficult and are there things you can do to make it easier?

Misti

It also becomes less beneficial. At that lean angle hanging off to the side of the bike's centerline actually makes you go "down", instead towards the center of turn radius.

Hence hanging off is most noticeable when the bike is completely vertical, and becomes less and less effective as lean angle increases.

Which is a simple way to explain why crossed up body positionin had almost no influence on Doohan's fantastic riding.

[Liquidtoon]

Now my physics classes were a while ago but wouldnt the object with a lower center of gravity, ie a lower heavier SS bike, need more lean than the higher touring style bike to make the same radius?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Domagoj

.........Hence hanging off is most noticeable when the bike is completely vertical, and becomes less and less effective as lean angle increases............

As long as you keep the same hang-off distance, the effect of off setting the bike to lean less is the same regardless the lean angle, ...........until you run out of free room, like the rider in the picture and have to reduce that distance.

The combined weight always points to the line between the contact patches, at any angle or vertical.




Forces increase rapidly at that point and the suspension gets worse; hence, a gentle twist of the wrist is more important:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119958

[JeffM]

Now that we are talking center of gravity there is another thing to remember about body position while hanging off.

I was taught that just getting your butt off the seat is inefficient. Your upper body has much more mass than your hips.

Thus, getting your head and torso out and forward has a much greater effect than just sliding your rear off the seat.

A good illustration of body position and lean angle (slightly tongue in cheek):