Why is my chain tight-spotting?

[corksil]

It's probably around 8k miles, maybe less. Always kept it tensioned, a bit on the loose side perhaps. I got a little negligent and went 1k miles without lube, but it didn't rust and it should absolutely be able to handle that without destroying itself.

After tensioning it a few days ago I noticed the "rrRRRrrRRRrrRRRrr" of a tight-spot on the chain while riding (you all know the noise..)

So today I'm getting to the bottom of it.

I cleaned the chain like it was my last act on this earth, and it's completely spotless and ready for lube and attempted re-assembly. I found a few tight links on the chain in the process but zero rust and very little sign of wear at all.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

Then I cleaned the sprockets like my cat's life depended on it. I wouldn't hesitate to lick the sprockets, they are downright sterile. Again, zero signs of of wear apart from the paint being worn off the rear sprocket. Zero rust whatsoever.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

I verified that the rear sprocket was true to the swing arm and tire. It was.

Then I verified that the front sprocket was true to the engine case, no wobble or side-to-side deflection at all.

Then I verified that the front/rear tires were true to eachother. They were. It's hard to see in the pics but I'm [redacted] and I try to be as precise as possible with this kind of work. I am very confident that both wheels are true within a 1/16" of eachother. (I verified tire pressures before checking the wheels for true..)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

The sprockets appear to be in line with eachother (you can zoom in if it helps..)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

So here I am. I'm going to put the chain back on and see if the tight spot happens again. It was consistently when the masterlink was 4" from rear sprocket, and then loosened up again once the masterlink had engaged the rear sprocket by exactly two teeth.

[Desmoluci]

Your chain is toast. Time for new chain and sprockets.

[corksil]

On what grounds? ^^^

Warranty dept is like... "wasn't that chain black? because your order history says you ordered a black chain..."

An corksil is all like "Yes I cleaned that mofo with a wire toothbrush and scrubbed it like a thousand weasels scrubbing a thousand chains to the thousandth power in an alternate reality where time doesn't exist, only weasels that scrub tirelessly day in day out with the ferocity only a scrubbing weasel could exert."

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by corksil

Why is my chain tight-spotting?

Have you exposed your chain to the smell of your gloves lately?

[corksil]

No but I did wash my gloves and they are drying right now and I really hope they don't shrink.

[Desmoluci]

Originally Posted by corksil

On what grounds? ^^^

Oh, maybe the hundreds of chains I've worn out?

[dcj13]

Is the chain hinky-kinky at or adjacent to the master link?

[cbinker]

you probably scrubbed the chain too hard, while wearing your gloves.

[Ninjinsky]

Do a length under tension test. and if that is within limits do it again including the split link in the test section.
I can't remember the limits but it will be in the manual
If that's ok You may just have over tightened the adjustment a tad when you did it. Set it up at slack end of the adjustment limit and see if it is quieter

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by corksil

It's probably around 8k miles, maybe less. Always kept it tensioned, a bit on the loose side perhaps. I got a little negligent and went 1k miles without lube, but it didn't rust and it should absolutely be able to handle that without destroying itself..........

The quotes in bold are very incorrect.

Those pictures show a non-admissible amount of overall "dryness".
Lubrication is all it needed and needs.

Please read this while you lube that poor chain with abundance of ATF:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=133019

[corksil]

Help me figure this out, guys. You are my team of experts and this is now the situation room and we most certainly have a situation. I'm putting the army, navy, marines, and papa john's pizza on high alert until we figure this out. We will need lots of coffee, and bagels with cream cheese.

It is officially time to be extremely serious until we get this situation taken care of. Please turn off your cellphones and direct your undivided attention this way.

What is hinky-kinky?

Here's what I discovered. I turned the chain until I hit the tight spot, then I marked the link LOWEST on the rear sprocket (directly under the axle.) As I continued turning, I got out of the tight spot 5 links later (and marked the 5th link where things loosened up again) and didn't hit the tight spot again until the chain had made a full revolution and the link I first marked was once again directly under the axle. The tight spot is about 5 links "long".

^^^^ That is to say -- it seems that there is only ONE tight spot, and it consistently happens when the chain is in the same position. (Not sure what that tells us..)

I replaced these sprockets at the same time I replaced the chain if I wasn't clear about that.

And this video might show you more than it shows me, there is a little looseness when pulled off the rear sprocket.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

[corksil]

The chain I pictured was after I cleaned it. I cleaned it spotless and let it dry. It has never been on the bike like that, the picture was after I took it off and cleaned it, after discovering the tight spot.

I'm waiting for a video to upload right now, and hear back from customer service but once I post that vid, I'd like all of your opinions if I should replace the chain.

I suppose I could take it back off again and do the stretch test.. let's wait for the video to upload first.

Thanks guys.

[EternalNewb]

Sorry I can't be of any help here. Good luck with the chain. At least you're taking care of it before it becomes a serious problem.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by corksil

The chain I pictured was after I cleaned it. I cleaned it spotless and let it dry. It has never been on the bike like that, the picture was after I took it off and cleaned it, after discovering the tight spot.........

Yes, but the surroundings must be abundantly splashed.

That deposit of fine sand over the swingarm is trying to tell you that the O-rings of your chain are suffering if you are using a sticky type of lube.

Careful to let that rear sprocket and chain pinch those fingers.

Overnight, soak that stiff section in a hot bath of ATF !!!

[corksil]

Chad @ sprocket center just agreed to send me out a new chain given all the pics/vids I've sent him in parallel to making this thread. So I'm no longer asking "is this chain toast?"

^^^ Yes, there is fine sand around here, and I used maxima chain wax. After reading your posts, I'm switching to atf and 10% gear oil. Chad also recommended against chain wax.

Here's the video that finally uploaded.. The tight spot is about 5 links long.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82...it?usp=sharing

I lubed the chain with a dose of ATF, wiped it down, and re-lubed. I guess I'll just loosen it up a bit and ride the bike for another few days until the replacement arrives and I won't be negligent on the maintenance with the new chain.

Once this old chain comes off, I'll soak it in ATF in the sun for a few days and ziploc it wet as a backup chain.

Why did this happen... negligence? I just forgot to lube it for 1k miles?

The bike got rained on a few times as well, surely that didn't help.

I appreciate the help.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by corksil

I suppose I could take it back off again and do the stretch test.. let's wait for the video to upload first.

Thanks guys.

You can do it in situ like this (wow, Is there anything that isn't on the web these days ? )

Link to original page on YouTube.

UPDATE just watched your video, yep that is bad, it's new chain time.

[corksil]

Thanks for the link.

[corksil]

One last question...

You're supposed to check tension on the side stand. How important is this because I've always checked tension with the rear wheel on jackstands, not on the kickstand.

[EternalNewb]

I've always checked tension in-gear on a rear-stand, then rechecked it on the side-stand before putting everything away. So far, it's worked for me.

[Aufitt]

Common new rider mistake is overtighten the chain.

Loose= good
Tight= bad.

I tighten my chains once and once only after the initial settling in.
30-35mm measured midway along the bottom run is fine.

When its stretched its time for a new one.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

Common new rider mistake is overtighten the chain.

Loose= good
Tight= bad.

I tighten my chains once and once only after the initial settling in.
30-35mm measured midway along the bottom run is fine.

When its stretched its time for a new one.

Yep, absolutely ^^^ an it's not just about the chain, that's the least of your worries it, can wreck your engine by cracking the case around the output shaft bearing. A friend killed a Katana I sold him by doing that. Miles from home with gf and luggage a very time consuming and expensive error.

You don't want this,
http://www.kfx450hq.com/forums/engin...cked-case.html
ever. ( though I would ignore the drama queen who says you will have to change "all the bearings in the bottom end" though it is best to check the bearing housing at the other end for ovality if the shaft has moved substantially)

[Ducati999]

Glad you are getting a new chain. I just wanted to clear up a few things about chains. First, the post about a chain being loose is correct. A little bit looser than recommended is better than a little bit tighter. The chain needs to be loose (within specs) so it does not put pressure on the sprocket shaft seals. A tight chain gets tighter when the suspension (rear shock) compresses fully.
Second No matter how much you clean the outside of a chain (especially an O-ring chain) you cannot clean the pins which go thru the links. They are what take all the load and if the sleeve around the pin gets dry/dirty then you get a "tight spot". The tight spot is at its worst when it goes around the front sprocket since this is where the chain has to "turn the sharpest corner". Once the chain gets "tight" There is little option but to replace it with a new one (and you should do sprockets also) because the tight spot is either dirt/damage to the pin inside the chain. Once there it will not get better only worse. The tight spot causes the chain to get hotter at that spot causing more loss of lubrication and making the issue worse the more you use it. Lubrication will sometimes make it feel better for a short time but it is still damaged and the wear will continue to increase over time until failure. O-ring chains are great until some dirt gets in past the seal then there is no way to get it back out. I prefer a non O-ring chain and keep it oiled every 3-400 miles. I do sometimes remove the chain and soak it over the winter.

Just keep it lubed and adjusted and replace when necessary

[alex.s]

not so sure about the output shaft seals. the engine itself pulls quite hard on the chain when putting out power which means its pulling quite hard on that shaft. on the J engine at least, the output shaft bearing will be destroyed well before the seal takes any force or damage. when you get a tight spot on the chain every time it goes around its like a little hammer on those ball bearings (don't ask me why they are balls and not needles) and eventually they just shatter and you get to drop the case to replace both sides' bearings. if you don't have any extra slack in the chain with the tight spot, you will either immediately dent those ball bearings, or you will stretch the chain. unlikely you will bend the output shaft considering how hard it is compared to everything surrounding it.

[corksil]

Learned a lot reading this thread. Thanks everyone who posted, everyone contributed helpful information. I'm going to think about this for the next few hours and distill the information I've absorbed thus far, then check back later to re-read it all again.

I appreciate it guys. Sprocketcenter said they'd have a replacement in the mail today, free of charge. I will certainly take better care of it, specifically with the ATF/10%-gear-oil lubrication method and certainly with more frequent care. My goal is to turn 50k on the odometer before I replace my next next chain. By then it will be time to start seriously looking for a 600.

[Rifleman]

Ok, read most of that thread, hopefully I'm not blabbin' on something that's already been said.

1. clean is good, but not always the best... a chain is one of those instances... a bit of grease on the outside of the chain catches grit and road sand BEFORE it gets into the internals of the chain... a good chain will ALWAYS leave black on your fingers when you touch it. If you can touch your chain and not come away with grease you chain is too dry and needs to be lubed.

2. just looking at that sprocket(s), I'm not 100% sure but they look worn... the chain is supposed to fit in the sprocket valley like hand in glove... no space between the roller and the sprocket valley for the bottom 120 degrees and a new sprocket and chain will be no space for like 180 degrees... put the chain in the sprocket and pull back and forth in a straight line (you will only be in 2 or 3 teeth, not wrapped around the sprocket)... If you have ANY MOVEMENT between the chain and the sprocket... that is worn and needs to be replaced... what happens when you have worn sprockets is that the movement causes heat and the heat wrecks the chain as well as wears the sprocket more.

3. clean a chain cold... grease a chain when it warm... As such clean the chain when the bike has been sitting over night, grease the chain when you pull in the shop after a good long ride. A chain "breaths", when it warms up it pushes a small amount of grease out of the rollers past the O-rings... as it cools, it sucks a little grease in.. that's why you clean cold (don't want to suck cleaning solution into the chain) and grease warm (you would like a little new grease to get sucked in)

4. use only chain cleaner, using things like brake cleaner or kerosene will wreck the O-rings. Even WD-40 is ??? Get the right stuff, and use the right stuff.



5. Regular maint is the trick. I have a can of that spray white lithium grease. Once a week on when I get home from work, I put it on the pit stand and give it a spritz. You can keep a rag around with a bit of that chain cleaner on it and just wipe the chain to get rid of "big chunks" and then spray with the spray grease... once a month whip out the tooth brush and give the chain a good cleaning. First the chain stuff, then soap and water... let it dry and then spray with the spray grease... the very next time you take it out, spray it with grease when you get back (chain warm)

hope that helps

[iamjacob]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

Common new rider mistake is overtighten the chain.

Loose= good
Tight= bad.

I tighten my chains once and once only after the initial settling in.
30-35mm measured midway along the bottom run is fine.

When its stretched its time for a new one.

<noob questions>
So... The book I have says .8 - 1.2 inches at the midway point. I set mine at an inch or ~26mm.

How hard do you push on the chain to get that measurement? Obviously there isn't a torque spec for that but is that a measurement of loose floppiness or the absolute maximum bounds that the chain can be pushed?
</noob questions>

I'm thinking I may need to loosen my chain a little...

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by iamjacob

<noob questions>
So... The book I have says .8 - 1.2 inches at the midway point. I set mine at an inch or ~26mm.

How hard do you push on the chain to get that measurement? Obviously there isn't a torque spec for that but is that a measurement of loose floppiness or the absolute maximum bounds that the chain can be pushed?
</noob questions>

I'm thinking I may need to loosen my chain a little...

Hi Noob, Just firmish forefinger up to firmish forefinger down at the middle of the run
About 40mm- 45mm top to bottom of the slack Up firm to down firm.
Because chains wear unevenly err on the slack side. the top run is always tight under power, you just want to stop the bottom run slopping about too far when its not carrying power (it tightens in the overrun condition and the slack moves to the top If it is too loose you start to feel snatch {no jokes please} coming on and off the throttle).
Lube it regular to prolong life but in the end it is a consumable like tires or pads
ps I am using the pregen manual which says 35 -45 as lower and upper limits at 45 adjust back to 40. So your setting of 26 seems tight but maybe the new models are different?

[Ninja Chris]

Kudos to corksil for starting this thread, and to everyone who has taken time to thoughtfully answer his questions. My wife and I came across the same scenario yesterday while completing basic maintenance on my bike (approx 10,000mi and chain starting to bind).

I actually spent more time searching for a gif to express my feeling about this advice in this thread than I did searching for an answer to my question