Avoiding the Rear Brake

[Yakaru]

Thought I'd post this since I saw Jiggles locking the rear being a major cause of his latest incident and my own bad experiences with it. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid the rear brake in an emergency situation?
Specifically, What I've tended to notice is that if I need to get on my brakes fast my foot can end up over the rear significantly faster than my fingers can grab the front brake. The result is that as I increase pressure on both that I can lock the rear simply because it gets into play so much sooner.
I've tried 'covering' the front brake while riding (I basically always cover my clutch) but it makes holding my throttle position very tenuous and uncomfortable. I've tried keeping my foot farther up the pegs to make it slower to grab the rear and it just doesn't seem to make a big difference in time and frankly makes me feel squeamish. The answer of 'never use the rear' also seems unsatisfactory, though I can see some logic behind it. Outside of panic brakes I only use my rear rarely, basically only for extremely small adjustments where coasting isn't quite sufficient, so I don't think it's pure muscle memory coming into play.

[Racer x]

Practice using both brakes. If you get on the rear first, then the front you will stop in a shorter distance. It takes practice. Sport bikes lift the rear wheel. The more breaking rubber you have on the ground the better you will stop

I have no front brakes on my bike. The rear break will stop you just fine. But only in a streight line

[psych0hans]

I completely stopped using the rear after locking it up twice in the same day and crashing once... Now I have to remind myself to use the rear in wet and low traction conditions... Or when I'm at a complete stop and don't want the bike rolling...

[Somchai]

Normaly it is no prob to use both brakes at the same time, cos look at all cars and the bigger bikes - what do they have? A stronger brake system in the front, so if you apply pressure to both at the same time the front will always brake harder.
But our Ninjette has the mistype of construction that the caliper at the front is the same like the rear one and that's the prob.
Since I'd change to Brembos this prob does not appear even while the rear with Brembo 2-pot is also strong braking, but the front with the 4-pot gives much more power for it.

[woofer987]

i would recommend practicing using both brakes. Go to a unused parking lot or a closed office park and try it there. That's how I learned to use my brakes in emergency situations and it has saved me a few times. Good Luck!

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by woofer987

i would recommend practicing using both brakes. Go to a unused parking lot or a closed office park and try it there. That's how I learned to use my brakes in emergency situations and it has saved me a few times. Good Luck!

I do this regularly, but it has a two big problems:
1. anticipation - you know you'll be hard braking in x seconds no matter how much you try not to
2. speed - you can't usually hit 65 in a parking lot

Obviously not poopooing the idea of practice, but I'm asking because I'm finding it insufficient

[woofer987]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I do this regularly, but it has a two big problems:
1. anticipation - you know you'll be hard braking in x seconds no matter how much you try not to
2. speed - you can't usually hit 65 in a parking lot

Obviously not poopooing the idea of practice, but I'm asking because I'm finding it insufficient

As for doing 65 in a parking lot you are correct.

haha But you need to remember that the harder you are braking with your front brake, the less weight there is on the rear of the bike. So if you were braking hard on the front brake, it would only take a few pounds of pressure on your foot to lock the rear tire up. Try to keep the weight distribution on your mind whenever you are braking and hopefully that should help.

[DaBlue1]

You don't want to avoid using the rear brake in a emergency/panic stop. The goal is not to use them to the point where they lock up. When your rear-wheel begins to skid, the rear wheel can begin to slow slower than does the front wheel. In such a case the rear wheel will move in the direction of slide faster than does the front wheel - it will 'catch up with' the front wheel. To do so it must skew to one side or the other from the track directly behind the front wheel. This is part of what happened to Jiggles. Jiggles had a few other factors such as bike weight, speed, luggage (which makes the center of gravity higher), road conditions, even his own weight and body position that may have played a part in the lowside.

Using your rear brake along with the front brake lowers the bike's center of gravity and leads to less weight transfer than if you use only the front brake, so the use of both at the same time always results in maximum stopping power.

Practicing panic stops is one of those skills that riders don't practice much. Most tend to focus on shifting and accelerating and not so much on decelerating. Although most riders don't do panic stops everyday, practicing gives you a better feel for what the bike, tires and brakes are doing, their full capability and limits.

Motorcycle Safety/Dynamics has some 23 tips that give great insight and information on the technique of braking. It may be a lot to read, but well worth it for any rider looking to improve their knowledge and skills as a rider.

[SMman]

I have avoided using the rear brake after taking part in track schools and track days. Sure it can be used for trail braking and in conjunction with the front brake but I took the advice of the instructors and didn't use it at all because it can often get you in trouble. The front brake is responsible for a huge percentage of your stopping power because the weight is transferred forward during braking. I ride with two fingers covering the front brake (one finger on the CRF450R motard because of the crazy front brake!) and practice panic stops. I will probably get flamed for saying never use the rear brake but I am a strong believer and it has worked very well for me on the street and the track. I actually know some racers who don't have brake fluid in the rear, just don't tell the tech inspectors

[Alex]

Rear-brake threads linked from the riding skills sticky:

-------

Front Brake? Rear brake? Both? Thread 1 Thread 2

-------

In a nutshell, the goal isn't to avoid using the rear under any circumstances. But if a rider is locking the rear repeatedly while braking, the first fix is probably not just "use the rear brake better". It's first learning how to brake such that you're using more of the capabilities of the front brake. Even if a rider gains pro level skills on using exactly the right amount of rear brake to slow the bike without locking it, that still helps the bike slow a very small amount compared to whatever is happening on the front brake. Jiggles' crash is a good example of what can happen if the rear does get locked; the rider often shifts concentration on keeping the bike upright and straight rather than maximum front braking, and the bike takes much longer to bleed off speed than it would have otherwise.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I do this regularly, but it has a two big problems:
1. anticipation - you know you'll be hard braking in x seconds no matter how much you try not to
2. speed - you can't usually hit 65 in a parking lot

Obviously not poopooing the idea of practice, but I'm asking because I'm finding it insufficient

The physics of deceleration are exactly the same at 65 and 15 mph.

Practice everyday, until it becomes a second nature.

Too much has been discussed in Jiggles' thread showing the video about the best "approach".

The reality is that there was and there will not be time or mind set for considering such "approach".

When you believe that your life is in danger, your instincts kick in and you don't think, you just feel.

You reaction will be unpredictable, at best it will be a repetition of what you have practiced systematically.

Study each article included in the link provided by DaBlue1 above, find a suitable place and make a habit of dedicating twenty minutes of each day to practice emergency maneuvers.

That is what Jiggles didn't do, only that is what could have saved his bike, leg and hand from being hurt (he was very lucky this time).

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

speed - you can't usually hit 65 in a parking lot

Then you're doing it wrong; get a bigger parking lot and wind 3rd gear out

Originally Posted by Somchai

Normaly it is no prob to use both brakes at the same time, cos look at all cars and the bigger bikes - what do they have? A stronger brake system in the front, so if you apply pressure to both at the same time the front will always brake harder.

Yes, but they also weigh 2000+ lbs and don't lift the rear off the ground if too much brake is applied. I don't think that's really a fair comparison.

But I see where you're coming from. That's why I put stainless steel lines on both ends, but I put sintered pads up front and organic pads on back. More braking on the front, a little less in the rear.

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by Motofool

The physics of deceleration are exactly the same at 65 and 15 mph.

When you believe that your life is in danger, your instincts kick in and you don't think, you just feel.

You reaction will be unpredictable, at best it will be a repetition of what you have practiced systematically.

Study each article included in the link provided by DaBlue1 above, find a suitable place and make a habit of dedicating twenty minutes of each day to practice emergency maneuvers.

The physics may be the same but the nature of the problem is completely different. At 15 MPH I would be hard pressed to lock the rear before I was already at a complete stop.

As I said, I practice regularly; it's good advice I already follow. This isn't a "front brake vs rear brake" question for me. It's a positioning and technique question -- I can get on my rear brake much faster than my front, and it is psychologically very difficult to 'ease up' on brakes when you're in the moment. In practice and on the road the only way I've found to deal with this is to actively cover my front brake so the reaction time is the same (as advised on the dynamics site ) -- this makes throttle control awkward with my small hands, even with my adjustable levers I basically can only keep my thumb on the bars if I want my fingers on the lever.

I don't know if I'm making any sense

[choneofakind]

I think that the quickness in your reaction with your rear is natural. From years of driving a car, what's the reaction? Move the foot quick and mash the brake pedal. Once we hop on a motorcycle and swap control of what appendage does what, it's hard to switch back and forth completely.

My suggestion for the rear is to just use your toes instead of mashing it with your whole foot. I know it might seem crazy, but I have a hard time locking the rear (even intentionally) if I just use my toes on it.

[lgk]

with the wood craft rear sets the brake lever is positioned lower so it harder to lock up.

ifs a big issue i would change to a larger rear master cylinder, so it delivers less force to the caliper.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

The physics may be the same but the nature of the problem is completely different. At 15 MPH I would be hard pressed to lock the rear before I was already at a complete stop.

Just try it.
Once your braking efficiency improves, you will see how easy it is, even at 5 mph.

Your faster reaction on the rear is not bad, it is actually what you want.
The rear will not skid and lock up while it has 50% of the weight on it, unless you have a really heavy foot.

It will initiate the desired transfer of weight onto the front contact patch (which can take around a second), while your fingers reach for your front brake lever.

What practice will do for you is to teach you to release the pressure of your foot as the weight is transferred and the load on the rear contact patch gets reduced.

It is important to understand that, since friction is proportional to the normal force, the lock up happens when there is little load on the patch (either rear or front).

That means lock up of front wheel is more likely to happen at the beginning of the emergency stop and lock up of rear wheel is more likely to happen at least one second after the beginning of the emergency stop.

[CC Cowboy]

I rest my index finger on the front brake lever ALL THE TIME (except on the track). I have for last 30 years and have never been in an accident. It only takes one finger to stop my bike. Reaction time is immediate.

[cbinker]

Since I have spare time in the winter, I read books such as: Total Control, Riding in the Zone, Smooth Riding Techniques, Twist of the wrist 1 and 2, and Sport Riding Techniques. I would suggest reading 1 or 2 of those books if not all of them and then come back with your answer.

[Jiggles]

It would be interesting to hear @rojoracing53's opinion on this

I think it's going to start with "my clutch is my rear brake"

[mgentz]

the rear brake is your friend. You need to learn how to use it properly.

I ride dirt bikes, motards and street bikes. The technique is different for each but I use the rear brake on all types. Once you get REALLY advanced, you can even "back it in."

In "oh sh!t" stops, you need to know how to use 100% of the front brake. From there, the back brake will be available initially, but it will become less effective as more weight transfers to the front. Should you lift the rear off the ground...nothing. Improper use of the rear, such as in the crash you mentioned, is cause for many unnecessary accidents.

There was even a youtube video of a professional racer, i want to say Pridmore, showing that proper use of both brakes gets it done faster and in less distance, but I can't search for it right now....

Rojo uses his rear brake and has said so, however, from what I gather, it is only in "oh sh!t" moments and then he uses it hard.

[Whiskey]

A quick tap on the rear as you go for the front is what you're looking for, practice until you can get the bike to 'squat' under braking. A dab of rear, smoothly on to full with the front as you increase pressure on the rear should get you stopped pretty quickly.

If you want to practice it at 65ish mph find a straight stretch of road that's quiet at night & try it then.

[CThunder-blue]

Go practice not to gorilla brake with your foot. MSF- apply progressive braking until the max is reached. Panic braking is all about muscle memory. If you don't go practice in a parking lot at 15mph, it's not going to help you at 65 or any other speed. I generally will start braking with my front, then the rear is a more gradual pressure. I've locked up my rear a few times, but nothing happened. Do this: go and ride at 35 on a side road. Brake with front first, then the rear. Release the rear just after applying pressure. You will see how much your rear brake is doing to slow you down. Even on my R6, the rear brake is significant at bleeding off speed.

[choneofakind]

^^ important part is releasing it. So many people just mash the heck out of it with their entire leg, then can't figure out why their rear wheel locks up.

[Whiskey]

What's your brake setup?
I have braided SS front & rubber rear hoses, the OEM lines have a little give while the SS are very precise. Sintered HH pads all round.
If you're worried about locking up the rear go with rubber lines there (and maybe organic pads) put a set of SS lines up front.

[CThunder-blue]

I just pulled off my old pads since I'm getting the tires replaced today. They had about 1mm left on them . Turns out they were HH pads. It's no wonder I was able to lock up the rear without trying too hard. I've already replaced them with some organics.

[csmith12]

I am with Alex here and as I have stated in many other thread. Develop an intimate relationship with your brakes. There are front and rear brakes on street bikes for a reason and this has been covered in other threads already.

In a panic, loading up the front progressively as best you can add the rear if and when you can in a controlled way. Otherwise, it's gunna happen so fast it will not have mattered either way.

Get a partner with a flag or something you can see easily and head to a clean parking lot. Have the flagger drop the flag at random and see how quickly you can get stopped. Start with the front brake only and then add rear as you get better with the front.

And when your front is near maxed out.... the rear will start lifting from the ground. How effective is it then? Do you think I use the rear brake coming into turn 1 from the straight at 150mph? Why?

[n4mwd]

Like others have said, practice, practice, practice.....

The front brakes give you something like 2/3rds your stopping power and the rear is like 1/3rd. Don't fall into the trap of "never hitting the rear brakes". When you need to stop quick, why would anyone want to give up 1/3rd of their stopping power?

Stop like this. Throttle off. Apply front brake firmly. Apply rear brake to ADD to the stopping power of the front. Only experience will tell you just how much force you need to avoid a stoppie or rear skid. I say stoppie, but too much front brake can lead to being flung over the handlebars and putting you right between the cager and your bike - that is, you smash into the cager, and then the bike crashes into you.

Listen to the sound of the tires. At the slightest hint of a skid, let off the rear before your bike destabilizes. From the first sound of a skid to an unstable bike is less than a second. After that, you run the risk of a high side if you let off the rear brakes and your bike is misaligned.

The official MSF way to handle a rear skid is to ride it all the way to a stop. The bike will be unstable, but less likely to high side you.

The BEST way to handle a rear skid is to practice enough so that you don't get into that situation in the first place.

[antiant]

Since I'm a noob (don't have a motorcycle yet) and more of a visual learner, I've been watching some of these videos:

Link to original page on YouTube.

I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but it seems legit.

[Yakaru]

:-/ Well, this seems to have turned into another 'how to use the rear brake and front brake' thread. Oh well, I guess I'll figure out my concern on my own.

[Joshorilla]

There is nothing inherently bad with the back brake, avoiding it simply means you're underutilising a potential means of stopping power.

I always use my rear brake in slow speed manoeuvres as we are taught, this also reduces fork dive and gives the bike a tendency to stand up which is desirable in slow speed.

Once you learn how to use the rear brake effectively with the front brake it'll become second nature, and you'll avoid what happened to Sean.

It's important to note that rear braking will act in tandem with engine braking, this can cause you to lock up the rear wheel.

Practise emergency braking with the front brake adding a little back brake till you skid a little and adjust from there to find your balance.

My preference in emergency braking, front brake on as much as I can and apply rear brake a little till I hear the engine rpm drop at which I pull in the clutch while balancing the loss in engine braking with added rear braking till I have come to a complete stop.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

:-/ Well, this seems to have turned into another 'how to use the rear brake and front brake' thread. Oh well, I guess I'll figure out my concern on my own.

Are you sure?

Your concern was how to avoid the rear brake. The answer is: Don't avoid it. Practice until you get it right. Practice until its second nature. Use an empty parking lot. Can't get up to 65 in a parking lot? Are you kidding? You're riding a Ninja. If you can't get it up to 65 then you need LOTS of practice. But start practicing at the slower speeds anyway.

[Yakaru]

That's just it though -- my question was NOT how to avoid the brake. It was how to avoid hitting the brake so much faster than the front because of the controls - I effectively always have the rear covered, but covering the front is exceedingly uncomfortable so I don't tend to do it outside of my practice.
I know how to use both brakes -- I practice it regularly, I've read the books; all the advice on that front is stuff I already do (it's great advice, that's why I do it, but it isn't about my issue). The issue I'm struggling with is how to get my panic reaction timing down a bit better so that the delay from engaging the rear to engaging the front is shorter so that I can let off the rear sooner and have less risk of it locking up. I'm getting the feeling it's an unusual issue/question to have from all the responses being about plain brake technique.

[CC Cowboy]

yakar, adjust your front brake lever (up or down) to where you are comfortable and get used to resting your index finger on the lever.

[Yakaru]

Thanks cowboy, any advice on how to keep my index finger on the lever without losing fine control of the throttle or cramping?

[mfresh]

I too always "cover" the front brakes with a finger or two and I must say it gets pretty uncomfortable given how much throttle twist is needed on the 250 sometimes... Thinking of trying the "zip tie" throttle mod to help out with that.

Consequently I always hit my front brakes much quicker than my rear. I have locked up my rear plenty of times and like everyone says the best way to "feel" how much rear you need in conjunction with your front is simply practice practice practice..

You practice enough times and you'll begin to develop a sense of how much footwork you need to give the bike, and most importantly, when to let off.

What I do, and this may help you out as well, is practice quickly "pumping" the brakes which is similar to what you would do in a car without ABS.

I am not saying "pumping" the brakes in the sense you grab the brakes, let off completely, and then apply them again. Press the rear brake and let off just a bit and press them in again in relatively quick succession.

The best way to get what I am saying it to get on your bike in a parking lot and start using your brakes. When you feel the pressure of the rear braking begin to affect the speed of the bike let off slightly and apply again until you hit that same "pressure" and let off again and apply again. You'll essentially begin to do a small "pumping" action. Practice this pumping action on the rear while you do your normal braking with the front.

I've noticed I lock up my rear tires much less frequently doing it this way and it seems I actually stop even quicker.

I tend to do this with both my front and rear brakes at the same time, particularly in "harder" stops. I feel the bike slows down quicker.

Not sure if this is sound reasoning, but may be worth trying out.

[n4mwd]

Maybe get into the habit of not covering the rear brake. Maybe adjust that as well. The front is better to cover. Like was already said, adjust it so that it fits our hand properly. There are also aftermarket levers that give you an even greater amount of adjustment.

But it still all boils down to practice. Too much front and your rear comes off the ground. Then you go splat. And even if it was clearly some cager's fault for pulling out in front of you, you will get the blame because you were "stunting".

If all else fails, buy a Ninja 300 with ABS. Problem solved.

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

That's just it though -- my question was NOT how to avoid the brake. It was how to avoid hitting the brake so much faster than the front because of the controls - I effectively always have the rear covered, but covering the front is exceedingly uncomfortable so I don't tend to do it outside of my practice.
I know how to use both brakes -- I practice it regularly, I've read the books; all the advice on that front is stuff I already do (it's great advice, that's why I do it, but it isn't about my issue). The issue I'm struggling with is how to get my panic reaction timing down a bit better so that the delay from engaging the rear to engaging the front is shorter so that I can let off the rear sooner and have less risk of it locking up. I'm getting the feeling it's an unusual issue/question to have from all the responses being about plain brake technique.

The problem you are having is you're wrongly identifying your issue, the time between engaging either brakes in respect to the other is irrelevant as the maximum amount of pressure applied to either before the wheel locks is independent of the force applied on either at any given time.

Their is no reason why you can't apply the rear brake first, so long as it's applying enough pressure as to not lock up the rear brake, and the delay between the two isn't too much as the bike will want to pop up. So forget about training yourself to go for the front brake, it's irrelevant so long as you apply it.

So given that the issue of which brake to use first is nullified by the fact the braking force applied is independent, then we must look at the symptoms that lead you to believe the issue is with which brake you use first and that is that you are locking up the rear wheel, this is simply because you are applying too much pressure, maybe because you panic? Maybe because you are used to applying more pressure on the front? Maybe you just go full retard and push as hard as you can equating more = better? Regardless of why their is one solution, and that is to train yourself to use the rear brake more effectively.

May I suggest giving yourself a length of road / car park / pier / yo mommas ass to practise braking ONLY using your rear brake, one marker at which to brake at, and another to place at the point you stopped, continue till you've managed to reduce that length to a repeatable distance without locking up your wheel at a given speed.

And if you don't like this answer shove it up your wazoo!

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by mfresh

The best way to get what I am saying it to get on your bike in a parking lot and start using your brakes. When you feel the pressure of the rear braking begin to affect the speed of the bike let off slightly and apply again until you hit that same "pressure" and let off again and apply again. You'll essentially begin to do a small "pumping" action. Practice this pumping action on the rear while you do your normal braking with the front.

I've noticed I lock up my rear tires much less frequently doing it this way and it seems I actually stop even quicker.

I tend to do this with both my front and rear brakes at the same time, particularly in "harder" stops. I feel the bike slows down quicker.

Not sure if this is sound reasoning, but may be worth trying out.

This is actually similar to the way I do my hard stops when it's not a panic; but a bit more active from the sounds. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Maybe get into the habit of not covering the rear brake. Maybe adjust that as well. The front is better to cover. Like was already said, adjust it so that it fits our hand properly. There are also aftermarket levers that give you an even greater amount of adjustment.

I've got Paizzos on their 'shortest' setting and it's still uncomfortable. I've got REALLY tiny hands. :-/ I'll just get used to it I guess.

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

The problem you are having is you're wrongly identifying your issue, the time between engaging either brakes in respect to the other is irrelevant as the maximum amount of pressure applied to either before the wheel locks is independent of the force applied on either at any given time.

My physics degree agrees with you [mostly]; my lizard brain doesn't. I can't psychologically bring myself to let off the rear brake before the front has been engaged so I want to get the front in play faster.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

That's just it though -- my question was NOT how to avoid the brake. It was how to avoid hitting the brake so much faster than the front because of the controls - I effectively always have the rear covered, but covering the front is exceedingly uncomfortable so I don't tend to do it outside of my practice.
I know how to use both brakes -- I practice it regularly, I've read the books; all the advice on that front is stuff I already do (it's great advice, that's why I do it, but it isn't about my issue). The issue I'm struggling with is how to get my panic reaction timing down a bit better so that the delay from engaging the rear to engaging the front is shorter so that I can let off the rear sooner and have less risk of it locking up. I'm getting the feeling it's an unusual issue/question to have from all the responses being about plain brake technique.

Pull your foot further back on the peg, ride heels in, that may help delay hitting the rear

[80MPHdownhill]

Always use both brakes on the street. After 10 years or so you'll be an experienced rider who can use a motorcycle properly.