Line choice vs speed; to romance or not?

[choneofakind]

Recently, my focus has been improving my lines at the track. The intent is smooth and clean lines which are safe for me, ie predictable to quicker traffic such that I claim the inside line and do not cause any accidental stuffing in corners.

While reviewing film trackside with @csmith12, we talked about 'romancing the corners' and how my line impacts the actions of the faster traffic coming upon me from behind. Essentially, if you swoop with the curve and complete the entire turn, you have a lot of fun and can make fluid lines. However, if you bring the bike up sooner and point at entry for the next curve, you 1) make a faster line and because you can get on the gas sooner and you have less distance to travel and 2) make your actions known more quickly to traffic and claim the inside line. I think I have some video I can rummage up to show the difference if my words are hard to understand.

So what do y'all do and why? Do you romance the corners on the street? How about the track? Do you just point and shoot from curb to curb, pin it to win it? Do you have video of accidental stuffings from picking the wrong line choice?

let's split this into two categories of responses, street and track. Do you romance or do you point and shoot? Why? What riding scenario dictates your line choice when transitioning between curves?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

......So what do y'all do and why? Do you romance the corners on the street?..........

Speed and distance are very low in my list of priorities while riding streets, roads and highways of Florida.

Whenever possible, I practice lines as straight as possible initiated by a quick flick instead of following the radius of the road's curb.
Not really necessary at legal speeds, but I find it interesting to practice.

[choneofakind]

Some examples from videos that have been posted already.

This is one of the morning sessions of our first day. skip to 6:30. I romance turns 7 and 8. I swoop to complete turn 7 fully, then start into turn 8 with a wide-ish entry.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Here's the last session of our 2nd day, apples to apples. Skip to 3:20. This one has a more direct line from exit at 7 to entry at 8.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Sirref]

I like to romance a bit on the streets because it's more fun when you're not worrying about speed/lap times but I realize that you don't want to romance on track riding

[csmith12]

[csmith12]

After thinking about it more, I put the popcorn up in the last post specifically for the questions Chris asks in the latter part of the post. They are great questions to ask yourself as a rider. I love to learn other points of view, I am highly interested in the responses to this thread.

Although, I feel the need to help make clear what chone means about "romancing the corners". First off, this saying was told to me (and others) by a great pair of control riders @ JenningsGP (track) in FL. Cool dudes! Also, if you look down, it is part of my sig. While they referenced line selection and such, I saw something more... a safety concern and a method of relating to learning riders in easy to understand terms. Maybe they did too, but I can't say either way.

So... We all should know what "outside, inside, outside" means. After all... we learned in the MSF. So what chone is asking is... are there times when you do the full outside, inside, outside vs. a tighter line that doesn't utilize the entire width of the available pavement? Your answer can be street or track, if so... please specify.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I like to romance a bit on the streets because it's more fun when you're not worrying about speed/lap times but I realize that you don't want to romance on track riding

For full disclosure, Ben your opinion is tainted as you were in the pits reviewing the vid with chone and I. Your input is valid yes, but tainted. My fault.... if you feel me.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

For full disclosure, Ben your opinion is tainted as you were in the pits reviewing the vid with chone and I. Your input is valid yes, but tainted. My fault.... if you feel me.

now the question here is, tainted in a good or bad way

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

now the question here is, tainted in a good or bad way

Biased to "my" point of view. Hopefully gooder. hahahahhahaha

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Biased to "my" point of view. Hopefully gooder. hahahahhahaha

well not 100% biased, I took it into consideration and the point that "romancing the corners" less means being straight up and down more often which leads to a greater ability to accelerate and or brake just makes sense for track riding although I do consider a few corners to be better taken if you stay leaned over and treat 2+ corners like one (and those aren't just double apex corners)

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

well not 100% biased, I took it into consideration and the point that "romancing the corners" less means being straight up and down more often which leads to a greater ability to accelerate and or brake just makes sense for track riding although I do consider a few corners to be better taken if you stay leaned over and treat 2+ corners like one (and those aren't just double apex corners)

"Fairly" enough and well done!

• I think for myself

[NevadaWolf]

Oh let's see if i understand....

On the track, i was more focused on connecting the dots (the organizers had gone out and put little white dots all over the track as reference marks). I really wasn't focused on making a corner, more just exit this dot to hit that dot to aim to the next dot etc. So, that left me entering corners fairly straight and upright until the last possible moment, then make the turn, then upright and go again.

On the street, I love curves and love holding them as long as possible. Makes me feel like I am flying. But I don't intentionally do the outside inside outside thing. Tried and it feels weird and leaves me in places in the lane where I don't like being. I know I am terrible about holding a straight line as I tend to look too far into the corner and end up cutting the corner way to much on the inside. Instead, I really try working on remaining an equal distance from the edge throughout the curve, from the moment I set my speed and position till the moment I leave.

I'm never after a goal of being faster or first or whatever, my goal is consistancy. My ultimate goal is a set steady speed and enough control that I fly through the entire road with as little unncessary braking as possible.

[Old Lemon]

my last track day i focused more on having good consistent lines and not much about corner speed. From the people around in the paddock that i talked to, they said i was having really solid lines. Not once did i get passed in a corner, maybe they knew i was on a 250 and could just bolt right past me afterwards, or my corner speed and lines were so solid that they would have had to make a risky move to pass me. Honestly in my opinion, i think it was a little of both

[Alex]

There are a couple different philosophies on it. One camp says learn the racing line, and follow it religiously faster and faster as you improve. The other camp says use only the amount of track you need, for the speed you are currently going. If you can go the speed you're going without using the edges of the track, there's no need to so, and your lap times will be quicker for that given speed as you are traveling less distance. Pridmore teaches that latter method, by starting slowly around the inside of the track and ramping up speed until you find yourself at the edge of the track on exit.

[nickjpass]

Idk? I've always thought of it as outside inside outside..

[Motofool]

Copied from
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...showtopic=2902

"While there are many choices in lines both for safety and for speed but not everyone who rides is adept in the fine art of choosing a line and it is an art. Compared to the street, track riding is more forgiving. A track may be 35 to 45 feet wide whereas your ½ slice of a two lane road could be as little as 8 feet. In that case, an error in line judgment on the road is roughly five times more critical than on a race track.

Your turn entry position, mid-corner and exit all have roughly 1/5th the margin for error. In other words, your line must be five times more precise, as a one foot error is equivalent to a five foot error on the track. One more point: if you couldn't get your lines under control on a track, it would be hopeless to think you could do it on the road. From a coaching perspective, 5 to 10 foot errors in lines on a track are interesting. While we know how to sort them out, you do wonder how they have survived thus far on the street.

Whatever speed you go is irrelevant. Once you are running consistent lines, within 1 to 3 feet, you will be doing way more right than X things wrong and your chances of surviving spirited street riding will soar." Keith Code

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Alex

There are a couple different philosophies on it. One camp says learn the racing line, and follow it religiously faster and faster as you improve. The other camp says use only the amount of track you need, for the speed you are currently going. If you can go the speed you're going without using the edges of the track, there's no need to so, and your lap times will be quicker for that given speed as you are traveling less distance. Pridmore teaches that latter method, by starting slowly around the inside of the track and ramping up speed until you find yourself at the edge of the track on exit.

When Chris, Ben and I reviewed the video. It was neither about speed, lap times or about the amount of track usage as a focal point. For helping Chris with his first days in the I group, we took a look at these particular corners from the safety and skills perspective.

First the safety perspective. His slower pace as a new I group rider, was in conflict with some of the top pack I group riders. Not in a way that was super terrible or anything, but enough in a few corners that line selection and turn in points would create a collision point if neither rider would give up their spot. Since I was behind him quite a bit of the total track time, I would always let Chris take whatever line he wanted from turn in point to apex, this is where a lot of track availability would disappear rather quickly. I never put myself in that zone by providing time and space, for my benefit AND for his. From my safety point of view, I played the role of a blocker. For the corners where he had a wider entry, I took a tight entry to block a faster rider from sliding up underneath him to pass, preventing Chris from a FORCED mid-corner line corrections because of a sudden existence of bike in the spot he is aiming for.

From the skills perspective, basically the bike can turn harder and faster. This is the steering skill I was hoping Chris would make massive improvements on but I didn't dwell on it or anything or push the issue. Having Chris tighten is lines also helped him with a few different skills even though I didn't specifically point them out. I gave him the chance to find them on his own. For example, he now knows that the hip flick will help him get through a chicane. @choneofakind can add more info as he wishes.

Imho, swooping across the track from your points of reference and romancing the corners while on track is a bit of "street rider" in all of us. Wide entries with a tighter exits is "physically safe", it's also "visually safe". Mid-Ohio will challenge your visual skills and your speed of processing what your see into actions, as some of the track features link specific skills together very quickly. For example; turn 10a (over a crest) right into (10b) a right turn while you're still mentally & physically processing the front end being light.

On the street, I do find myself on the outside via late apex more often than keeping it tight, ie romancing or as I call it, flowing with the road. Why? Because it's fun at a slower pace, maximizes my vision through the corner among other reasons, like setting safe entry speeds or reacting to unknown factors like debris in my path of travel.

[alex.s]

personally i try to go for a race line but i often make mistakes near turn in and fall back to a swoopier line... if you can't make a turn in on the fast line, it's okay. run a bike length wide and keep your speed- the further outside line will have a lot more room for your speed and even though you ran wide, you kept your speed up so you can carry it through so as long as you don't run off you'll be good. some people will use a swoopy turn in as a means of slowing down way late because of something like an entry pass or lapper or something

[choneofakind]

^^ that makes sense alex. The swoopy line with slower turn in would lend itself better to deep braking.


I think Chris mirrors my thoughts for street. I tend to find myself entering late more often than not because it helps me see the whole corner. I find myself being an ever more cautious street rider because of how restrictive the street is. Like Hernan says, a 5 foot error on the track can only be a 1 foot error on the street. I made tons of 5 foot errors; I'd rather not do that with oncoming traffic


I guess the differing schools of thought come from differences in experience and intent while riding. Are you the experienced racer who's trying to go faster to drop lap times? Are you the long time street rider trying to have a safe and enjoyable street ride on the back roads? Are you trying to learn the track pace at a new course? Are you a novice to the track and trying just to make clean and safe lines and still have the street rider in your head? How cautious are you? Things that I'm seeing all go into line choices. Keep the thoughts coming!

[alex.s]

i will also say... there are very few race track corners that a 250 actually needs to use brakes in.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by csmith12

First the safety perspective. His slower pace as a new I group rider, was in conflict with some of the top pack I group riders. Not in a way that was super terrible or anything, but enough in a few corners that line selection and turn in points would create a collision point if neither rider would give up their spot.

Got it. That's a related topic, but it has a different goal. If you're in a group where you expect people to be passing you pretty regularly, going from edge to edge when your pace doesn't dictate it can add some unnecessary risk. Always leave a few feet on the outside (and consider it on the inside for some known risky corners), so a faster rider doesn't have to slow unexpectedly. Yes - it's always the responsibility of the rider making the pass to do it safely, but keeping them from having to check up helps keep both of you safer in a trackday (non-race) environment.

[snot]

Before I read all the responses - on a mellow ride I romance the corners a little on the street. I usually try to a void the outside edge due to gravel (Ohio). On a spirited ride I am all about the fast in and out but still a void the edges due to gravel and other debris.
On the track I try to use the fast lines, I am still working on proper speed and braking BEFORE the turn so I can accelerate all the way through and stay on 2 wheels.lol... we will see how I do in a week.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by snot

Before I read all the responses - on a mellow ride I romance the corners a little on the street. I usually try to a void the outside edge due to gravel (Ohio). On a spirited ride I am all about the fast in and out but still a void the edges due to gravel and other debris.
On the track I try to use the fast lines, I am still working on proper speed and braking BEFORE the turn so I can accelerate all the way through and stay on 2 wheels.lol... we will see how I do in a week.

I usually ride the road twice before I "gun it".

[snot]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

I usually ride the road twice before I "gun it".

We do this too sometimes. We have a lot of gravel on our roads, some of it matches the street color and it is hard to see. I do know the roads very well that I "play" on

[csmith12]

@lowcel, imma use some of your video as a learning example for others. I hope you don't mind and please take what I say as constructive, hope it helps keep ya safe and shiny side up . I aint be trying to bash nobody ya hear.... but I think this is what Jace was talking about. Hint: Your line down the back straight, it's an easy fix but comes in a sketchy spot and the speeds are high.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Here we have an I group rider who is following a CR, I am also in tow to get more video footage. You can see the differences in lines and how/where I make gains. Also, pay close attention to the big straight with a small curve in the middle (near the end of the vid). See how much track can disappear in a real short time? If I would have been an aggressive passer, lowcel and I might have had more in common that day than what we wanted if ya know what I mean.

[lowcel]

Originally Posted by csmith12

@lowcel, imma use some of your video as a learning example for others. I hope you don't mind and please take what I say as constructive, hope it helps keep ya safe and shiny side up . I aint be trying to bash nobody ya hear.... but I think this is what Jace was talking about.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Here we have an I rider who is following a cr, I am also in tow to get more video footage. You can see the differences in lines and how/where I make gains. Also, pay close attention to the big straight with a small curve in the middle (near the end of the vid). See how much track can disappear in a real short time? If I would have been an aggressive passer, lowcel and I might have had more in common that day than what we wanted if ya know what I mean.

I think it was in the next session that we got really close in that kink. I caught you in the corner of my eye at the last second.

Also, notice coming out of the keyhole (the first turn) how wide the rider I was passing went. The guy wasn't nearly fast enough to need to go that wide coming out of the turn but it was his track so he was in the right. I had to knock off a good chunk of speed pretty quick right there which really hurt me going down that straight that lap.

Can we use the video from the other session that you followed me? My lines really sucked in this video.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by lowcel

I think it was in the next session that we got really close in that kink. I caught you in the corner of my eye at the last second.

Also, notice coming out of the keyhole (the first turn) how wide the rider I was passing went. The guy wasn't nearly fast enough to need to go that wide coming out of the turn but it was his track so he was in the right. I had to knock off a good chunk of speed pretty quick right there which really hurt me going down that straight that lap.

Can we use the video from the other session that you followed me? My lines really sucked in this video.

Yep, that guy went really wide. why... I held back to see what he was gunna do. When you passed, I thought... oh noes.... hope this works out well. Then we had good laugh about it in the paddock, thank goodness.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by lowcel

Can we use the video from the other session that you followed me? My lines really sucked in this video.

Well, that is kinda the point of this thread, lines selection and their effects, not about sucky lines. Dude, your riding was just fine. So ya had a bad lap, meh... we all do every now and then.

Full disclosure: lowcels riding was like this, rockin' on!

Link to original page on YouTube.

[lowcel]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Well, that is kinda the point of this thread, lines selection and their effects, not about sucky lines. Dude, your riding was just fine. So ya had a bad lap, meh... we all do every now and then.

Full disclosure: lowcels riding was like this, rockin' on!

Link to original page on YouTube.

I have got to get my confidence up and start braking later. You are killing me on braking.

Just one more thing to work on.........

[JohnnyBravo]

I just ride... It's whatever

No track days :/

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by lowcel

I have got to get my confidence up and start braking later. You are killing me on braking.

Just one more thing to work on.........

The 250 has taught me alot about braking but I also have a method to the madness that is "late braking". I will share it with ya on Mon.

It took me a looooooonnnnnnggggggg time to work up the braking skill and you know.... it still aint perfect, you seen that for yourself in turn 7 when I pretty much blew it terribly. I will upload that video too so we all get a good laugh.

[Ducati999]

I voted as a romantic. I have been told that i ride SMOOTH thru turns. My street riding is always out in out because this allows the highest margin for safety. I rarely ride above 65-70% on the streets so i make sure i hit my marks and i guess this looks smooth. The track is completely different. I also was too focused on hitting the marks they instructors left on the track and did not ride smooth at all because of the new enviroment mixed with markers that i was not used to and more speed than i had ever experienced and i am suprised that i did as well as i did (not saying much). My next trip i am planning on trying to ride more my style and flow to their marks rather than try to force the issue. I believe i will feel better and be smoother.

[choneofakind]

Ant, you'll get a little better at relaxing with practice. You'll start seeing more of your peripherals and it'll feel like less work just to hit the right spot.

[CycleCam303]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Being predictable in traffic to me is following the racing line. It's the faster rider's job to get around safely.

The fastest line is the fastest line. There are different lines for passing and holding people off behind you.

In simple terms it really depends on the course and what I'm trying to do. I may start a turn in late because I have more power and getting the bike stood up and on the gas is more advantageous. Or take a "swoopier" line to salvage as much corner speed.

But I could be reading this all wrong.

[sharky nrk]

On a bike with power, where you can put down all the power, squaring a corner and getting the bike upright onto the fat part of the tire can pay big dividends in terms of exit drive. This is particularly important on corners that exit onto straights. The ninjette doesn't have enough power to get out of its own way, so there is little to no point in squaring a corner unless your protecting your lines.

I think most of the time on the ninjette lines are tighter than big bike lines (no need to travel more distance that necessary) but also tend to be more flowing, less point and shoot. Keep your corner speed as high as possible for your run out of the exit.

On the street, just stay between the lines please lol