Challenge Me....

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

any advice for super long sweeping corners where you're leaned over for extended periods of time?

There were a few at nccar and I was trying to find numerous reference points until I gave up on that and just used the inside grass/track border as my reference point as the corner was so long I found it almost distracting to change rp's a lot. So visually there may be an issue there but I feel that I had it almost working but not quite.

The real issue is confidence in rolling on in a corner that long as that would lead to being wide open from the halfway point on or so even with a slow roll on. Any way to increase confidence with throttle roll ons in really long sweepers

It probably has a lot to do with your visual skills in these types of corners. Ideally you want at least three RP's for a corner right? Turn point, apex and exit. But for a long sweeping corner you are going to need to have more because you most likely can't see the apex from turn in, or it's a double apex....or its jus two long you need more.

You mention that you find it distracting to change RP's a lot which can be true if you don't have SOLID RP's that you CAN SEE easily. If you are scanning and trying to pick up different RP's each time or you don't have specific enough RP's then you can get lost in the corner trying to search for what you are looking at.

You also mention that you are looking to increase confidence with throttle roll on in these types of corners. Now, if you knew EXACTLY where you wanted to be in a long sweeping corner and had something specific to look at as you were exiting do you think that would give you the confidence to roll on harder?

What do you think I'm going to suggest next?

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Next one:

What specific things can a rider do to stop the feeling of fighting the bike? "Relax" is a bit vague.... I have an idea, and would like a reality check.

Background:
I routinely find myself putting a lot of weight on my inside arm at the track. I have to remind myself to relax and get weight off the bars, but it's been hard to do. I'm often in the middle of a corner about to roll on before I relax.

So the root cause of fighting the bike and all the bad stuff that happens as a result is that I'm too far forward. Fix that and the dominoes start to fall... move back, and you can get your body in a better position -- even absorb braking forces with your thigh instead of your arms--, which lets you relax, which lets you carve that line.

Am I on the right track?

I think so.

When riders sit too close to the tank they can end up being crowded too close to the handlebars and can often end up straightening their arms in order to cope with this "crowding." Straight arming often leads to gripping too tight and trying to steer by pushing DOWN on the bars instead of by pushing FORWARD.

Another problem when you sit too close to the tank is that you can't get a good lock-on to the bike with your lower body. In order to be able to keep your arms relaxed while cornering you MUST have good stability with your lower body. So do a little experiment for me.

When the bike is on the stand sit close to the tank and try to hang off (as you normally would while cornering) notice how connected or not connected your thigh feels with the tank. Notice how you are holding onto the handlebars. Can you take your hands off without sliding around or off the bike?

Now sit back in the seat a little bit...you will probably notice that your knee fits into the tank cut out a little bit better.

Now, press that outside knee into that tank and imagine you have $50.00 between your knee and the tank. Get into your hang off position now, without letting that $50 bucks fall out. How do you feel now? Are you able to let go of the handlebars and relax your arms?

Misti

[csmith12]

Well, well... Misti beat me too this question.

Lemme put a slightly different perspective on the same set of skills, because I believe she is right. After doing a few laps and identifying what a rider needs to address. What works for you? From the turn in point forward or the apex/exit backward? While I really, really love the turning point as a base, but it's foundation is based on visual inputs from the corner. ie... how do you know when to turn? To me meaning, the path to apex is visually backward to define the line, you can't have one without the other...

Your "true" turn in point for long sweepers is always in question here. There are 2 rules to steering;

1. Get the steering done as quickly and efficiently as possible
2. One steering input per corner

Long sweepers pose a possible exception to these rules, as your position on track pays a particular important role here. Sometimes upon corner entry to a really long sweeper, you must steer every so slightly to position your bike to the spot in the corner where it makes sense to execute a definitive steering commitment to the exit. It may not make 100% sense based on what is read in TOWT2 and such, there is always an exception or two floating around. After all, tracks are made challenging to their respective riders. It remends me of those memes we see on the webs ever now and then that are labeled "when you see it".

And to see ya'lls with the next level. You can have a great turn in point, but the attack angle a rider approaches it with can make ALL the difference.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

It probably has a lot to do with your visual skills in these types of corners. Ideally you want at least three RP's for a corner right? Turn point, apex and exit. But for a long sweeping corner you are going to need to have more because you most likely can't see the apex from turn in, or it's a double apex....or its jus two long you need more.

You mention that you find it distracting to change RP's a lot which can be true if you don't have SOLID RP's that you CAN SEE easily. If you are scanning and trying to pick up different RP's each time or you don't have specific enough RP's then you can get lost in the corner trying to search for what you are looking at.

You also mention that you are looking to increase confidence with throttle roll on in these types of corners. Now, if you knew EXACTLY where you wanted to be in a long sweeping corner and had something specific to look at as you were exiting do you think that would give you the confidence to roll on harder?

What do you think I'm going to suggest next?

Misti

to get my eyes up and pick specific RPs across the corner. It's long enough to where there isn't really an apex. Same radius throughout so you just set your lean and maintenance throttle it mostly, I can see how it would trace back to being a visual issue as I had a lot of trouble finding good reference points throughout the corner. I do believe that would give me the confidence to roll on harder as I finish my roll on almost immediately when the exit comes into view and there is a part of me that knows I can finish the roll on much earlier than that

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

any advice for super long sweeping corners where you're leaned over for extended periods of time?...........

The real issue is confidence in rolling on in a corner that long as that would lead to being wide open from the halfway point on or so even with a slow roll on. Any way to increase confidence with throttle roll ons in really long sweepers

You are absolutely correct about increasing speed too much.

Using the 40/60 weight distribution advised in ATOTW2 means that the bike should be accelerating 0.1 G to 0.2 G as soon as possible.

That acceleration translates into a gain in speed of 2 to 4 mph per each second.

Normal curves go by quickly and the speed has no time to increase too much.
Super long sweeping corners take much longer and, as you very well stated, the out-speed could be excessive (running wide) or the-in speed would need to be too low.

IMHO, some of the ideal 40/60 weight distribution must be sacrificed for super long sweeping corners by reducing the acceleration rate: overloading the front tire, yes, but moderating the in/out speed differential at the same time.

Those curves somehow impose a similar situation to a descending off-ramp, where the bike tends to gain too much speed quickly while the front tire is supporting excessive weight.

[csmith12]

Hernan, you don't have to sacrifice the weight distro. You just change your gearing. /shhhhhhh it's racer secret Your descending off-ramp is nearly a perfect example!

Ben, compared to a normal corner, how is the line different through a descending circular off-ramp?

[Sirref]

The line hugs the radius of the corner rather than abusing the available lane to straighten out the corner a bit with a classic outside - inside - outside approach

[burningscooter]

@Sirref - I actually putted around following you for a lap and from what I can recall, you take a really tight line going into T5 at NCBIKE. Instead of hugging the inside on the edge all the way around, next time, approach it with a inside - outside- inside approach. On your 250, you should be WOT at T4 to setup for T5. Your corner entry line for 5 is on point.

The primary issue that I see for you is that you arent carrying any speed into T5 and with the lack of speed, when you start rolling on the throttle mid apex, you start drifting wide and when you go to correct it, its twitchy. The way the line is for T5, you should probably have 90% of your throttle roll on done before the exit meatball.

[Sirref]

That approach makes a lot of sense especially considering the way T5 closes up a bit at the end in both directions, assuming you stay tight to the inside

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

How did the try out go? If you ever have any specific questions about the school and instructor stuff then feel free to PM me. But what you are doing with this forum should help solidify all your tech knowledge and the questions are great practice too!!! Hope you enjoyed it and Johnny is an absolutely wonderful coach!!:dance cool:

Misti

Everything went fine Misti, although I opted to pass. The format was not a match with me and my teaching style (I am picky like that). It was great to meet everyone and wish you were there to finally meet as well, maybe next time.

Thanks for all your help along the way and your continued support of the riders here.

As of right now, I will just concentrate on coaching at Mid-Ohio and race as the budget allows.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

to get my eyes up and pick specific RPs across the corner. It's long enough to where there isn't really an apex. Same radius throughout so you just set your lean and maintenance throttle it mostly, I can see how it would trace back to being a visual issue as I had a lot of trouble finding good reference points throughout the corner. I do believe that would give me the confidence to roll on harder as I finish my roll on almost immediately when the exit comes into view and there is a part of me that knows I can finish the roll on much earlier than that

exactly First I want to make sure you have really solid reference points and then it becomes a matter of picking up those points early enough so that you aren't getting fixated on the one before and so that you can carry a good roll on through the corner, but not too early that you end up getting lost and having to flick your eyes back and fourth from first RP to second. I use the example that it's like connect the dots. At first it may seem a bit choppy and segregated but as you get better at it, the line becomes smooth and flowing as you move your eyes effortlessly from one point to the next.

You should notice your confidence increase and the throttle rolling on effortlessly as you exit. Once you are comfortable with your line and RP's through the turn, what would be the next RP that you would want to add to the mix?

Originally Posted by csmith12

Everything went fine Misti, although I opted to pass. The format was not a match with me and my teaching style (I am picky like that). It was great to meet everyone and wish you were there to finally meet as well, maybe next time.

Thanks for all your help along the way and your continued support of the riders here.

As of right now, I will just concentrate on coaching at Mid-Ohio and race as the budget allows.

I'd love to hear more about this if you could send me a PM that would be awesome!

I love reading your comments on this thread!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

exactly First I want to make sure you have really solid reference points and then it becomes a matter of picking up those points early enough so that you aren't getting fixated on the one before and so that you can carry a good roll on through the corner, but not too early that you end up getting lost and having to flick your eyes back and fourth from first RP to second. I use the example that it's like connect the dots. At first it may seem a bit choppy and segregated but as you get better at it, the line becomes smooth and flowing as you move your eyes effortlessly from one point to the next.

You should notice your confidence increase and the throttle rolling on effortlessly as you exit. Once you are comfortable with your line and RP's through the turn, what would be the next RP that you would want to add to the mix?

Through most corners I do, this one in particular is long with not much going on in the inside of it with the exception of some hard to see cones that were knocked down (sometimes they're still standing in the mornings but they're right next to the edge of the track so people like to hit them)

I've found that magical timing to transition from RP to RP at most tracks and most corners, it's the long sweepers like the bowl at nccar and T1 at jennings that get me mostly due to the extra RP's needed through corners like that.

As for the next RP I see RPs as a checklist of sorts which goes as follows

1. Braking Point RP
2. Turn in point RP
3. Apex RP
4. Apex 2-X RP (if needed)
5. Exit RP

Where the exit RP is where I look farther down the track and use the track width as a gauge for my speed to adjust the rate at which I bring the bike back up while I'm powering out, which is different by scenario as I may not necessarily want to go out past mid-track or so to better set up for the next corner while on straights I'll typically want to use all the space available to get any extra drive that I can (this applies so much more to my gsxr riding than my 250/300 riding but still applies)

The next RP would then be my next braking point RP unless I'm riding a 250 down the back straight at mid-O where I can pull out my phone and order a pizza before needing to look for the braking point RP

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Through most corners I do, this one in particular is long with not much going on in the inside of it with the exception of some hard to see cones that were knocked down (sometimes they're still standing in the mornings but they're right next to the edge of the track so people like to hit them)

I've found that magical timing to transition from RP to RP at most tracks and most corners, it's the long sweepers like the bowl at nccar and T1 at jennings that get me mostly due to the extra RP's needed through corners like that.

As for the next RP I see RPs as a checklist of sorts which goes as follows

1. Braking Point RP
2. Turn in point RP
3. Apex RP
4. Apex 2-X RP (if needed)
5. Exit RP

Where the exit RP is where I look farther down the track and use the track width as a gauge for my speed to adjust the rate at which I bring the bike back up while I'm powering out, which is different by scenario as I may not necessarily want to go out past mid-track or so to better set up for the next corner while on straights I'll typically want to use all the space available to get any extra drive that I can (this applies so much more to my gsxr riding than my 250/300 riding but still applies)

The next RP would then be my next braking point RP unless I'm riding a 250 down the back straight at mid-O where I can pull out my phone and order a pizza before needing to look for the braking point RP

Hahahah, so true about the straight at Mid O, though I only rode it on super fast 600cc's so we may not have had time to order a pizza but it was still a good for a moment or two of rest

As for your list of RP's, they sound great. We usually say that you need a minimum of three RP's for a given corner, Turn point, apex and exit but as we all know, braking RP"s are very important as are extra rp's in the middle of long sweepers or double apex corners.

One common mistake in sweeping corners that people make is that the second RP they choose is not visible early enough or definitive enough that it can be picked up early while at speed. Your second RP in a long sweeping corner needs to be something easily spotted, something that won't move or change during the day (like the cones you mentioned) and something that puts you on line for spotting your next RP (your exit RP). If the corner is super long you may even need three locating RP's.

Once you have all your reference points then the challenge becomes spotting them in a relaxed and timely manner. What would you say is the rule for when you switch your focus from one RP, l(ike the apex RP) to the exit RP?



PS. I'm at the airport heading to Monterey for two days of coaching level 4's at Laguna Seca :thumb up:

I'm kinda excited!!!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

PS. I'm at the airport heading to Monterey for two days of coaching level 4's at Laguna Seca :thumb up:

I'm kinda excited!!!

ps... I wasn't invited. lol

Enjoy, have fun!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

As for your list of RP's, they sound great. We usually say that you need a minimum of three RP's for a given corner, Turn point, apex and exit but as we all know, braking RP"s are very important as are extra rp's in the middle of long sweepers or double apex corners.

One common mistake in sweeping corners that people make is that the second RP they choose is not visible early enough or definitive enough that it can be picked up early while at speed. Your second RP in a long sweeping corner needs to be something easily spotted, something that won't move or change during the day (like the cones you mentioned) and something that puts you on line for spotting your next RP (your exit RP). If the corner is super long you may even need three locating RP's.

Once you have all your reference points then the challenge becomes spotting them in a relaxed and timely manner. What would you say is the rule for when you switch your focus from one RP, l(ike the apex RP) to the exit RP?

Yeah those braking RPs have helped a lot, I did it to an extent to begin with but csmith's "black and white braking" thread got me doing it for every braking zone and pushing it back farther each time, sometimes learning that I never needed to brake at all. I'd consider braking to be one of my strengths though there are plenty of riders who clearly outclass me in this area.

The visibility of the RPs in these long sweepers is likely my issue, better RPs could help me considerably through these corners. I'll work with some coaches to find a few next time I am there. It's a 270 degree corner where you stay leaned over for upwards of 10s at 70-80mph so 3 or more midcorner RPs are needed

I don't have a rule per se but one great coach helped me a while back to identify that I was switching RPs inconsistently and he had me look at the apex RP until I reached it for a session. This made me naturally start looking through the apex RP a bit more since my focus was on it and I naturally started finding points where the apex RP would (typically) line up with the exit RP at which point a seamless transition is possible between each.

As for braking RP/Turn in RP/Apex RP I switch to my turn in RP as I apply the brakes as my braking RP is no longer needed at that point, then I switch to my apex RP as soon as it comes into view assuming that I used a different RP for each as sometimes I use the apex RP as my turn in RP when I can

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

sometimes learning that I never needed to brake at all.

There is at least 1 second to gain on every track in this area. Kudo's for applying it. It's a sign of real progress .

Here is a challenging question to you though. How does what you have learned about braking affected your steering and your throttle control in those turns?

[Sirref]

The corners where I have learned that I did not need to brake I either take flat out or with a slight (not all the way off) roll off which is unbelievably smoother through those corners. My throttle control in general has a lot more finesse to it, with the goal being to be as smooth as possible to not upset the bike at all but make it more stable and to guide it through the corner. I view throttle and braking as the same entity, applying less acceleration is similar to braking only with less force slowing you down and as a result is a bit smoother. I've been using this a lot in side to side transitions (which I need to work on a good deal more, they're hard since you have so little time to flick your body with the bike. Once I get that down I can be wide open through some of those corners) with great success

Steering to me is a different goal, I find it more natural to trailbrake a bike into a corner though this isn't always the case since there are tons of corners that are wide open or only a roll off. When I take the corner wide open the front feels vague to me in comparison though, I'm not sure why this is but I believe it's because I'm not putting as much weight or force onto the tire so I don't feel as much of it as a result of that. I don't like the lack of feeling from the front in these corners though I trust it to that point and it's hard to really go any faster than wide open until any errors in previous corners are cleaned up resulting in more speed. I tend to put less force into the bars to take lines that aren't quite as tight as I feel they could be and to allow the bike to go where it wants to a degree when I'm going through wide open as a result of this. This only applies to corners where I enter and exit wide open, if I roll off I still get a bit of that feeling from the front which gives me more confidence in my ability to flick the bike over more. This may be a suspension issue, this may be me but I've never truly been as comfortable with the front in wide open corners as I have been in some trailbraking corners

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Yeah those braking RPs have helped a lot, I did it to an extent to begin with but csmith's "black and white braking" thread got me doing it for every braking zone and pushing it back farther each time, sometimes learning that I never needed to brake at all. I'd consider braking to be one of my strengths though there are plenty of riders who clearly outclass me in this area.

The visibility of the RPs in these long sweepers is likely my issue, better RPs could help me considerably through these corners. I'll work with some coaches to find a few next time I am there. It's a 270 degree corner where you stay leaned over for upwards of 10s at 70-80mph so 3 or more midcorner RPs are needed

I don't have a rule per se but one great coach helped me a while back to identify that I was switching RPs inconsistently and he had me look at the apex RP until I reached it for a session. This made me naturally start looking through the apex RP a bit more since my focus was on it and I naturally started finding points where the apex RP would (typically) line up with the exit RP at which point a seamless transition is possible between each.

As for braking RP/Turn in RP/Apex RP I switch to my turn in RP as I apply the brakes as my braking RP is no longer needed at that point, then I switch to my apex RP as soon as it comes into view assuming that I used a different RP for each as sometimes I use the apex RP as my turn in RP when I can

Good. Let me know how it goes when you do look for other RP's in those corners As for the rule about when to look from one to the other, we usually say once you KNOW FOR CERTAIN you are going to hit your apex or your turn in point then you look to the next RP. So as you approach the turn you look for your turn in point and when you know you are going to hit it you look to the apex and once you know you are going to actually make it to the apex you move your vision to the exit RP. As I've said a zillion times before, sometimes it seems a bit like connecting the dots at first and it may feel a bit choppy and unnatural but after some practice you will be able to move your eyes from one RP to the next smoothy and quickly and your lines will become consistent

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Steering to me is a different goal, I find it more natural to trail brake a bike into a corner though this isn't always the case since there are tons of corners that are wide open or only a roll off. When I take the corner wide open the front feels vague to me in comparison though, I'm not sure why this is but I believe it's because I'm not putting as much weight or force onto the tire so I don't feel as much of it as a result of that. I don't like the lack of feeling from the front in these corners though I trust it to that point and it's hard to really go any faster than wide open until any errors in previous corners are cleaned up resulting in more speed. I tend to put less force into the bars to take lines that aren't quite as tight as I feel they could be and to allow the bike to go where it wants to a degree when I'm going through wide open as a result of this. This only applies to corners where I enter and exit wide open, if I roll off I still get a bit of that feeling from the front which gives me more confidence in my ability to flick the bike over more. This may be a suspension issue, this may be me but I've never truly been as comfortable with the front in wide open corners as I have been in some trailbraking corners

Having read TOTW2 in book too many times and watched the DVD around 100 times, the area of turing effectively while under WOT is skipped. Not quite sure why or maybe it's addressed in the "traction rider" section. Effectively though, these turns that we are taking at WOT or relatively near are by rider gut feel until someone says something different. I am sure Mr. Code can put some science and tech behind it, but it will boil down to tire grip, speed and the rider's ability to get it turned. Mostly in an area where I am weak at best, "steering with the rear". As much as I hate to say it.... I ride these corners by feel. Maybe @Misti can shed some light here where I cannot. Perhaps it's addressed in the CodeRace CSS school? Because to say it should never happen is just plain silly.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Having read TOTW2 in book too many times and watched the DVD around 100 times, the area of turing effectively while under WOT is skipped. Not quite sure why or maybe it's addressed in the "traction rider" section. Effectively though, these turns that we are taking at WOT or relatively near are by rider gut feel until someone says something different. I am sure Mr. Code can put some science and tech behind it, but it will boil down to tire grip, speed and the rider's ability to get it turned. Mostly in an area where I am weak at best, "steering with the rear". As much as I hate to say it.... I ride these corners by feel. Maybe @Misti can shed some light here where I cannot. Perhaps it's addressed in the CodeRace CSS school? Because to say it should never happen is just plain silly.

Are you asking about understanding "feel" in these wide open throttle corners or about getting it turned effectively? We talk about the rider's ability to get the bike turned in both the quick turn seminars and in the pivot steering seminars. Any time there is a WOT corner you need to have confidence in your ability to get it turned quickly and effectively. Can you clarify the question a little bit so I can fully understand and answer to it?

Thanks

[Sirref]

I think I may be able to clarify a bit, I can't speak for bikes with good suspension but on my 300 in high speed WOT corners I find that the front likes to wander a bit just after I turn it in. This gets worse when I tip it in faster. This is only in 6th gear corners though, There are plenty of WOT driving corners in 4th and 5th where I don't get the issue.


The issue disappeared completely when I switched from pirelli DRII tires to dunlop alpha 13s (which are utterly amazing) but this was the only time I didn't feel that front end vagueness at high speed (felt it on the stock IRC and michelin pilot street radials)

[Sirref]

@csmith12 did you ever do that writeup on passing? I didn't see it and that was the biggest thing holding me back in my races yesterday.

When I went to pass I went in on the brakes but was braking so late and so hard that the back was everywhere except where it should have been which is definitely not something I want to be doing regularly like I was doing yesterday in my passing attempts. I made one pass on exit and that was my cleanest pass but setting it up was very difficult as I forced myself to go way faster than I should have through a corner to the point where it was so sketchy that I couldn't repeat it even though I had done it already.

[csmith12]

Sorry, it's not finished and sitting in my drafts folder because I am a slacker lol. I will finish it as soon as I can.

[Sirref]

It's all good, the fact that it's even being made is a good thing for me (and the other interested riders)

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

ps... I wasn't invited. lol

Enjoy, have fun!

Heheehe. I'm off again in two days for Laguna again.

Originally Posted by Sirref

@csmith12 did you ever do that writeup on passing? I didn't see it and that was the biggest thing holding me back in my races yesterday.

When I went to pass I went in on the brakes but was braking so late and so hard that the back was everywhere except where it should have been which is definitely not something I want to be doing regularly like I was doing yesterday in my passing attempts. I made one pass on exit and that was my cleanest pass but setting it up was very difficult as I forced myself to go way faster than I should have through a corner to the point where it was so sketchy that I couldn't repeat it even though I had done it already.

Here is a small little comment I made previously on passing from another thread...

Most of the time passing has to do with our visual skills. When we come up behind another rider, even if we are going much much faster than them, the tendency is to look at the rider and not at where we want to go. Even if we allow our attention to zone in on him for a split second we have lost our ability to see the space around him. The rider only takes up about 3 feet of the entire track which leaves a lot of available passing space.

I used to have a really hard time passing students on the track when I first started coaching at CSS. I didn't want to pass a student too close and scare them so I was always cautious. The problem was that it was often more dangerous for me (and others around me) to slow down suddenly, get caught behind them, and then try to pass them later when I had lost my momentum.

Finally someone mentioned to me that instead of seeing the rider in front I should look at all the space available around that rider. Instead of allowing our vision to narrow down and tunnel in on the slower rider we should pull our vision open even wider and see all the empty space. This combined with having your own reference points and in being familiar with how the bike will handle and corner when you take different lines will help you get your passing done much more effectively. The trick is to keep your vision as wide open as possible and also looking as far up the track as possible and using your peripheral vision to keep track of the rider instead of focusing on them, even for a second.

Thoughts?

Misti

[dcj13]

Cool! Avoid target fixation. Look where you want to go.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

Thoughts?

I agree with that completely, my issue pops up at the advanced track day/novice racing level where people are generally moving at a pretty good pace. While dealing with people that are much slower I can pass them without issue so long as they are predictable. When people are maybe marginally slower through the corners is when I have my issue. When our lap times are within a tenth of each others it's very difficult to pass. At that point I feel it comes down to line choice to get ahead

that said, improving my visual skills is always a good thing and would definitely help me continue to improve myself as a rider

[csmith12]

@Sirref @alex.s

Passing post sneak peek #3

CONTROL THE FIELD! Sometimes you have to slow to keep the guy off your tail. What I mean is... if your main competition is running mid pack, creating a traffic jam just might keep them there. The more riders between you and them, the better. 99% of the time, at race pace, you don't go 3 and 4 wide in corners. This also works very well near the final laps of the race when everyone expects you go even faster. But be warned.... if another racer becomes the leader, this plan can go out the window real quick.

As the race leader, you set the tone and pace of the race. Never forget you don't have to set the lap record to win, just be faster than 2nd. Winning a race at a pace less than your dry track day pace feels funny while racing, but the podium ceremony is just the same. Always, always, always, always... haul the mail the final lap, leave nothing on the table.

Passing post sneak peek #4

Leave your passive personality at home. If you see an opening, take it!!!! The passing windows are very small and the openings even smaller. DO NOT hesitate to take the opening either, put you and your bike EXACTLY where you want it to be.... only if there is room. Remember, this is NOT a track day, you try not to touch, but an inch is enough.

There will come a time in your riding where I will tell you this, "to go really fast, you MUST take have control over your aggression" and "to race, is to ride atop chaos, then bend it to your will." Finding the inspiration to go beyond what your current "fast", is just as much a factor as fear... Because if you don't, someone else will, and you can take that to the bank.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

Heheehe. I'm off again in two days for Laguna again.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I agree with that completely, my issue pops up at the advanced track day/novice racing level where people are generally moving at a pretty good pace. While dealing with people that are much slower I can pass them without issue so long as they are predictable. When people are maybe marginally slower through the corners is when I have my issue. When our lap times are within a tenth of each others it's very difficult to pass. At that point I feel it comes down to line choice to get ahead

that said, improving my visual skills is always a good thing and would definitely help me continue to improve myself as a rider

Line choice, planning AND your visual skills will all play a roll when attempting to pass riders that are only marginally slower, or the same speed as you. As you are riding, be aware of what is happening to your visual information coming in...If you begin, even for a split second to narrow down on what the rider in front is doing then you may have missed an opportunity. You want to have an idea of where they are going to be and what part of the track will remain available for you to take

A lot of times there is planning involved, seeing where you are stronger or where you notice yourself catching up and then planning to take them in that spot the next time around or in the next similar corner....but it ALWAYS comes down to how good your visual skills are in terms of seeing and planning the attack

Originally Posted by csmith12

@Sirref @alex.s

Passing post sneak peek #3

CONTROL THE FIELD! Sometimes you have to slow to keep the guy off your tail. What I mean is... if your main competition is running mid pack, creating a traffic jam just might keep them there. The more riders between you and them, the better. 99% of the time, at race pace, you don't go 3 and 4 wide in corners. This also works very well near the final laps of the race when everyone expects you go even faster. But be warned.... if another racer becomes the leader, this plan can go out the window real quick.

As the race leader, you set the tone and pace of the race. Never forget you don't have to set the lap record to win, just be faster than 2nd. Winning a race at a pace less than your dry track day pace feels funny while racing, but the podium ceremony is just the same. Always, always, always, always... haul the mail the final lap, leave nothing on the table.

Passing post sneak peek #4

Leave your passive personality at home. If you see an opening, take it!!!! The passing windows are very small and the openings even smaller. DO NOT hesitate to take the opening either, put you and your bike EXACTLY where you want it to be.... only if there is room. Remember, this is NOT a track day, you try not to touch, but an inch is enough.

There will come a time in your riding where I will tell you this, "to go really fast, you MUST take have control over your aggression" and "to race, is to ride atop chaos, then bend it to your will." Finding the inspiration to go beyond what your current "fast", is just as much a factor as fear... Because if you don't, someone else will, and you can take that to the bank.

Agreed that if you see an opening then take it but there are some things you can do in your riding and your practice to ensure that you know how to deal with the "new corner" when you dive in deep on the inside of someone or attempt to pass around the outside....

What happens to the corner when dive way up on the inside? How do you need to adjust your riding to handle that corner once you have made the pass? What could you do during practice times to ensure that you KNOW what to expect when you pass?

Misti

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by Sirref

....I can pass them without issue so long as they are predictable.

^^^This! It is the ONLY thing (in my mind ) that holds me back from making the pass: will they ride the probable line? As all my riding/track days/racing is for fun and at the novice level; I hesitate to make a pass I know I can complete IF the rider in front of me does what would be reasonably expected. But at that level of riding/racing: many times they don't and as it's all for fun I hold off or only pass on the exit. The problem with that is they take it back on the gas! ( The laws of physics! )

[csmith12]

I know the answers to Misti's questions.... Do ya'lls? If not, you will soon.

[cbinker]

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

^^^This! It is the ONLY thing (in my mind ) that holds me back from making the pass: will they ride the probable line?

Can you pass them in the braking zone by setting up an inside line there? How about a good draft? Tried showing them a wheel? Pressure can prompt an error in their riding for you to take advantage. Keep it clean and in good sportsmanship though.

[cbinker]

number 1 point: Know where you are fast. next when following another rider see if you can exploit where you are fast. next figure out where they are weak, set up 3-4 corners before the pass.

[csmith12]

@Sirref @alex.s - here is your passing post. Sorry it took so long.

Racing the 250 has shown me many ways to pass when I can't get an easy pass on the straight.

Bottom line
First off, you have to come to terms with this; "if all racers never leave the race line, no one can pass anybody." Now that you know you have to leave the race line to make a pass, you can start to figure out HOW and more importantly WHEN.

Use the track to your advantage
I try to find a section of the track where I am slightly better than other racers. Maybe it's your favorite linked corners, the hardest braking zone, ect.. ect.. I choose these areas to make a pass first as I am more comfortable with taking greater chances. IE, I am more comfortable taking alternate lines. There are pros and cons to alternate lines; for example a pass that I make a lot is a wide, hot entry, quick flick, trail with a late apex and a really good pickup at the exit. Although this line leaves me somewhat open to an inside pass on entry, if there is no one on my six and I don't mess it up, I can normally drive out ahead or wheel to wheel with the rider in front of me if I am a faster racer. And speaking of the pickup, are you truly using it to your advantage? Most things considered, if you’re not pinned or nearly pinned before climbing back on the bike, there is more work to be done.

Also don’t forget that each circuit is different with its own character of bumps and surface feel. If I hear a fellow racer complain about the surface in a particular corner or section. Yep… that is where I am going to pass or pressure them.

Inputs, Controls and Bike Feedback
This is the meat and potatoes of this post and the hardest to get right. How fast can you really go? Well, you’re not going to go pass anyone that is faster than you so you’re going to have to figure out how to go faster. This is where bike feedback comes in. It all starts with you the rider; how much feedback can you WORK WITH. It don’t matter how much you can feel or don’t feel if you can’t work with it. At a high level, you’re not going fast enough unless the bike is mildly complaining about what you’re asking it to do. MILDLY is the keyword here! Subtle signs may show up like this; mild headshake on corner exit (very aggressive throttle roll), slight lifts of the rear wheel in the braking zone (very aggressive braking) or small pushes of the front/rear wheel (high corner speeds). There is a complex puzzle between, track & bike that must be put together that enables enough feedback to the rider to do what they need to do, but not TOO MUCH. Too much overloads with information and slows them down. So if you're riding around the track and the bike is not giving you ANY negative feedback, you CAN go faster.

Your bike is a missile right? How many keys does it take to launch a missile? Many movies depict that it takes 2 keys. The two keys used to get maximum drive through a corner to keep the rider in 2nd place firmly in 2nd place are getting the bike turned faster than them and beating them back to the throttle.

Steering is so important... that many riders may subconsciously adjust their turn in points based on their 80% skills at getting the bike turned to make their intended line. And since the turn in point affects so many other aspects of braking and cornering, if a rider wants to go faster than the rider in front of him or pass them. The answer is pretty simple, out steer them. The added quickness and accuracy in steering will allow for getting back to the throttle faster and many lines can be carved tighter. If a rider can shave a foot or two of track on a few corners over the course of a 10 lap race, that means the winning rider covered less distance, faster and with more confidence in their riding. Have you ever encountered a corner that only required a small hint of brake? Let me turn this upside down! What IF?!?!?! You could adjust your approach to the corner with the thinking that the rider could go faster through the corner by better throttle control and better steering? The rider could find the confidence to make the corner by slowing down or... create stability with good throttle control knowing they have the confidence to get the bike turned quickly and accurately.

Brakes... considering how much time one really spends on the brakes during a race, there are plenty of opportunities to late brake a leading rider on the inside a corner that you’re really comfortable with. This does a few things, but mainly puts you either; side by side, past the rider, in your passing lane (inside or outside) or may cause the lead rider adjust his line at the last minute. Basically, putting pressure on the lead ride may force an error where there wouldn’t be one. Just be a good sport when pressuring other riders and keep it clean.

Every time we talk about using the hook turn, it is about tightening the line mid-corner, you want to know how I use it the most? To enable a more aggressive throttle roll. We all know that a super greedy throttle roll will send the rider wide on their line. What if you balance your more aggressive throttle roll with a hook on exit. Yep... you can roll harder, it's not a lot but a little is often enough. Also, when guarding an inside pass, the rider can turn in earlier and closer to the inside, but this creates other problems. The first big problem is it creates a decreasing radius turn and you have to adjust line mid-corner, the hook turn is your friend here. The 2nd big problem is unless your throttle control is good as well as eager, you most likely will lose drive on exit. This again is where knowing that you have good hook turn in your bag of tricks to use to keep your throttle control strong.

At the moment of truth and you’re in the middle of the pass… don’t think, feel the moment! The time for thinking about it has passed, so do not concentrate on the pass but instead refocus on your exit and next actions, because any time spent dwelling on your current place is time spend on what already has happened. Replace all the negative rider feedback of instability; hot entry, heavy braking, close proximity to another rider, visual focus on the close rider, ect.. ect.. and replace those with helping the bike provide positive feedback by getting back to the throttle, loosen up on the bars (relax) and look for your next point.

Controlling distance
For linked corners… When the lead rider expands (runs wide mid-corner), you contract by tightening your line as much as you can, ie going slow in the slow parts. When the lead rider contracts (tightens their line), you expand, ie go fast in the fast parts (run wide via an eager throttle roll). For example, it’s better to exit a chicane faster than being faster in the middle of the chicane. Here is the deal, don't go faster for 100ft of track by sacrificing 1000ft of track. This is where a rider can take advantage of control inputs to decrease or create a gap. Let’s face it, most of the time when you realize you can roll harder, you’re already 2-3 seconds too late and kicking yourself saying “I could have went faster in that corner”. When you have realized that, you have arrived back to the future and already missed your chance to close a gap.

And even though you say you can't really get a good clean pass in the straight, it can still be used to your advantage for a solid draft into the braking zone but you may have to get on the brakes harder and trail into the corner after using the draft to slingshot around them at the last minute. And 100% for sure, don’t let the leading rider’s lines, markers and such leak into your riding. Look through them, ride through them, and definitely don’t visually linger on their every move. Air is a BIG deal, even a slight hesitation in the throttle will cost you time and drive when you’re fighting the wind. When not fully tucked, the forces of drag are horribly strong and get stronger the faster you go. When you can and it makes sense, stay in the draft bubble.

CONTROL THE FIELD! Sometimes you have to slow to keep the guy off your tail. What I mean is... if your main competition is running mid pack, creating a traffic jam just might keep them there. The more riders between you and them, the better. 99% of the time, at race pace, you don't go 3 and 4 wide in corners. This also works very well near the final laps of the race when everyone expects you go even faster. But be warned.... if another racer becomes the leader, this plan can go out the window real quick. Many see this as not very sportsman like, but that is racing for you… it’s not always pretty. As the race leader, you set the tone and pace of the race. Never forget you don't have to set the lap record to win, just be faster than 2nd. Winning a race at a pace less than your dry track day pace feels funny while racing, but the podium ceremony is just the same. Always, always, always, always... haul the mail the final lap, leave nothing on the table.

The mental game
All riders at some point in time follow one secret law… it’s the law of attraction. You cannot touch it or feel it but will know it when you are following the rule. Because you as the rider will become stagnant and complacent in your space. Riding for the sake of riding if you will. If you're riding with that frame of mind… why? What are you gaining? At first, this law creates drive and ambition to catch the racer in front of you but once the pass is complete does it go away? No, it transfers to the rider behind you, leaving you without that incentive. Once you understand that attraction is a two way street, you can then use that same attraction against them. Be unpredictable but SAFE, and NO LAST MINUTE DECISIONS, as they are normally bad. What I mean is to use the rider behind you to drive you in places where they caught you the lap before. When they show you a wheel or you hear their engine on your 6, that attraction should be a sign to your weakness in that area. If you haven’t a boost of skill to apply in that area, then a change in your riding will show through as unexpected. It could be as simple as a line change, a turn in point change or a braking marker change. Remember that change from lap to lap and do something different to keep the rider on your six guessing but… if YOU have to guess, don’t do it. That guesswork will turn into hesitation and a slower lap time.

You cannot be fast, if your chasing the mental self. Which happens so often when trying to ride “harder” to go faster. So as important as it is to have the physical abilities to color or ride outside the lines, the rider must not allow these sensations to attack and control the mind. Learn to quiet your mind and really concentrate, It’s not tense but ready, not thinking but not dreaming, do not be set but flexible. You have instinct on one side and self-control on the other. Your goal is to combine them together, to be to the extreme on either side will cost you time. Too much control, looks and feels mechanical and unnatural, too much dependence on instinct leaves you exposed to passes when the rider forgets about the block or line that would prevent a pass, sudden danger and even blind you to an opportunity to pass.

Leave your passive personality at home. If you see an opening, take it!!!! The passing windows are very small and the openings even smaller. DO NOT hesitate to take the opening either, put you and your bike EXACTLY where you want it to be.... only if there is room. Remember, this is NOT a track day, you try not to touch, but an inch is enough. There will come a time in your riding where I will tell you this, "to go really fast, you MUST take and have control over your aggression" and "to race, is to ride atop chaos, then bend it to your will." Finding the inspiration to go beyond what your current "fast", is just as much a factor as is fear... Because if you don't find it, someone else will, and you can take that to the bank.

[SLOWn60]

Excuse me Chris;
Do you have VR's & MM's forwarding email addresses?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

Excuse me Chris;
Do you have VR's & MM's forwarding email addresses?

lol... I looked at some of the comments in that thread and looked at this post and thought the same thing. Interesting thing is, I posted a lot of sneak peaks to this and other threads to this to this post before the VR & MM battle in the last race. Go figure they would show most of them in a single race. hahahahah

EDIT: I have played the mental game all the way into the paddock. For example, I allowed some cupcake stickers to placed on my race tail to intimated inspire a heavier rider to go faster. It worked for a round or two, then that among other things that transpired... he started to drop to 5,6,7th place in the pack. Smacktalk is a subtle yet powerful ally.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

Excuse me Chris;
Do you have VR's & MM's forwarding email addresses?

I almost snorted mtn dew out my nose I was laughing so hard at that

Thank you for the writeup chris, I've been waiting for something like this for a while to help me better understand what to do when racing (where a pass is critical for position) as opposed to track days where it doesn't matter if you pass a guy or not

[csmith12]

Well, well... seems like it's time to get to work. I am writing curriculum for Mid-Ohio I and A classes. I believe they will be optional classes, but changes are coming, next year's requirements from higher up will tell the tale.