Linked brakes

[theredsox]

Does anyone have experience with linking the front and rear brakes together so they are both operated by the foot brake? I'm looking into doing this for a 2011 250r.

[kkim]

why?

[theredsox]

I'm a beginner disabled rider; only 4 fingers on each hand. Would like to keep my full grip on the bars if possible while getting better then rear only braking performance. Just considering options. Maybe I'd find once I get the bike that I wouldn't need to do it, but I'd like to know if it's an option.

I like the Ninja over the Honda CBR250r in all aspects except the linked braking that the Honda has which under hard rear braking applies ~30% of the front braking power automatically. Any info if this is possible and what might be required would be excellent.

[kkim]

I would think a linked brake system would need to be engineered into a bike and I personally wouldn't trust an add on system not thoroughly designed and tested by a manufacturer. In this case, the Honda seems to have an edge for you.

if you don't mind sharing, which fingers are missing on which hands? depending on that info, it may still be possible for you to ride the ninjette.

[Boom King]

Almost anything is possible with the knowledge and money. That being said, I don't think it would be that easy or a job for anyone unqualified. The braking system is not something you should mess with unless you really know what you're doing. The LBS Honda uses is from what I know, has been refined over many years and was a technology they bought from another company. Even then, critics of the system still exist.

You would probably need a different sized master cylinder, proportion/pressure control valves, caliper work and some good plumbing work to get this all to work. A delay valve to the front brake would probably be crucial if you wanted to maintain some sense of independent braking at low speeds. Add in tons of trial and error to make sure you get the desired front/rear bias correct.

[headshrink]

I don't pretend to know what it is like, or anything about your abilities/disabilities, but I will tell you that when I brake, I blip the throttle at the same time as squeezing the front brake without any loss of stability. I don't know which fingers you still have, but I think my thumb and webbed portion of my hand is the only thing on the grip, with either 2 or 4 fingers on the lever (so the remaining 2 would sometimes also be on the brake. My point is it can go either way, and as long as you get used to it, you are likely not going to feel any loss of control. Personally, I think I feel like I am MORE under control since I learned to brake this way (less stopping distance). I would certainly think you would get better use out of adjustable levers too.

Sorry I can't answer your original question, I have zero experience with linked brakes.

[shawn57187]

Depending on which fingers are missing and your grip strength, you might be able to simply replace the front brake lever with an adjustable, shortened version.

CRG or Pazzo both make shortened, adjustable levers. It allows you to brake with two fingers and adjust the amount of travel for the lever.

[dubojr1]

I'm missing my middle finger on my left hand. Some bikes clutches challenge me due to grip strength. The ninja is by far one of the easiest I have rode. My FJR... now that's a different story. Even the riders with all their fingers complain about the 07+ slave cylinder on those bikes though.

If it is a thumb that is missing though, some re-design of the brakes could be helpful...

[theredsox]

Great info everyone, thank you. I will comb through it later when I'm not at the office.

I'm missing the finger just right of middle on each hand. I didn't mention it, but in addition to that I have more limited left hand grip as I'm missing the longer bone between my elbow and wrist.

I'm planning to get a double lever product on the right side which will control the clutch and the front brake. Because of that, I'm looking for ways I can minimize use of those two levers. I'm planning to install Flatshifter Pro, a clutchless upshift/downshift controller so I only need to use the clutch for stopping and starting. So I turned my focus to seeing if I can minimize front brake lever use which led me to linked braking.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by theredsox

Great info everyone, thank you. I will comb through it later when I'm not at the office.

I'm missing the finger just right of middle on each hand. I didn't mention it, but in addition to that I have more limited left hand grip as I'm missing the longer bone between my elbow and wrist.

I'm planning to get a double lever product on the right side which will control the clutch and the front brake. Because of that, I'm looking for ways I can minimize use of those two levers. I'm planning to install Flatshifter Pro, a clutchless upshift/downshift controller so I only need to use the clutch for stopping and starting. So I turned my focus to seeing if I can minimize front brake lever use which led me to linked braking.

I just want to say I admire your passion for riding. GL to you sir and please let us know if we can help in any way.

[KJohnson21]

Like the others have said, don't try to re-invent the braking system.

What you cannot do is simply splicing the front brake lines onto the rear brake system. Since the majority of braking and stopping is done with the front brakes and not the rear, the existing unified braking systems keep the front and rear braking forces in balance, and that's where the magic happens.

What you might be able to do is transfer the components from another combined or unified braking system onto your 250. If you study the various existing combined/unified systems there are a lot of different ways that it can be done. Some of them are very sophisticated and complicated, probably expensive and too bulky to work nicely on the 250.

So, find a braking system that exists on another bike model that works the way that you think you'll like, check the components to see if they'll fit in the 250, and if they can even be used on the 250. Other systems might use electronics that have nowhere to plug into the 250.

Whatever you do you'll almost certainly going to need to replace the rear master cylinder with something more substantial. Beyond that, you might be able to use a three-way valve from another bike model that uses that type of system. That means you'll need a lot of extra brake lines that aren't there now.

Do a lot of research and double-check with others that it makes sense before committing to a possible solution. (Kind of like how you started this thread. )

Getting the new Honda 250 with the ABS option would be a far simpler solution.

[theredsox]

After some more research, I agree with the majority here. Messing with the brakes system seems like the wrong option. Much safer to just go with a bike which has the technology built in if I determine it's needed. Right now I'm not sold that I'll need it.

Having never brought a bike from 40mph to 0 fast, do you need to apply a lot of force against the handlebars to keep your body in position? Or does the position of a rider on a sport bike minimize that motion because you are hugging the bike? My main concern with maintaining grip is for those situations. I used to ride a mountain bike back in the day and my main worry was always dumping over the handlebars on a quick stop. I never actually went over, but here and there I'd lose grip and would end up with my chest going into the handlebars. Anyone able to make some comparisons between a bicycle and sports bike in that situation? Similar, easier, harder, impossible to really compare? Thanks!

[kkim]

Brandon,

if you need some time on a bike to see if you'll be able to handle it, may I suggest you look for an MSF course in your area? They provide the bikes to ride during the class plus you would be gaining some valuable safety information in the process.

[theredsox]

I plan on taking the safety course with my own bike. I did not find a MSF school in my area which offers automatic/semi automatic bikes, which is what I would need if not bringing my own modified bike. It really stinks because I agree going to the course before getting a bike is a much better way to do it.

Google'in around while watching the Bruins/Lightning game, I ran across "tank knee pads". Basically sticky pads on the sides of the gas tank to allow your legs to brace against the tank and take away some body momentum before the upper body does the rest. It sounds like these pads were popular a long time ago, but not so much lately. Anyone use something like this before?

[kkim]

why not take the course with one of their bikes to see if you are able to operate a bike with a standard setup?

[theredsox]

I cannot grab the clutch with my left hand Without the second bone in my left forearm, I have no wrist movement. Can grip the bar or clutch, but not both at once. It's hard to visualize, but I'm certain the clutch needs to be moved to the right side using a dual lever setup before I could consider hopping on a manual transmission bike. I will get it figured out for sure though. It's only a matter of time, effort, and money. I'm in no hurry.

[kkim]

have you considered an auto clutch?

http://www.efmautoclutch.com/index.shtml

[BISH]

What about using a thumb brake? Im sure something could be engineered where the foot brake controlled the front and a thumb brake for the rear, or vicky verky?

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by BISH

What about using a thumb brake?

Mr. Doohan had success using one

[BISH]

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by theredsox

I'm a beginner disabled rider; only 4 fingers on each hand. Would like to keep my full grip on the bars if possible while getting better then rear only braking performance. Just considering options. Maybe I'd find once I get the bike that I wouldn't need to do it, but I'd like to know if it's an option.

I like the Ninja over the Honda CBR250r in all aspects except the linked braking that the Honda has which under hard rear braking applies ~30% of the front braking power automatically. Any info if this is possible and what might be required would be excellent.

Actually, the rear should be ~30%. Your weight shifts forward when stopping and so the front wheel has the most traction. Applying equal brakes would lock your rear tire and cause a skid even though there's still braking power to spare on the front.

[Cuongism]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Actually, the rear should be ~30%. Your weight shifts forward when stopping and so the front wheel has the most traction. Applying equal brakes would lock your rear tire and cause a skid even though there's still braking power to spare on the front.

He's actually talking about the linked ABS brakes on the CBR250. Applying the rear brake automatically applies a little front brake, but applying the front brake doesn't affect the rear. Most linked systems apply 30% of the braking power back to the front if only the rear is used and it's just another way to prevent locking the rear wheels on ABS systems.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Cuongism

He's actually talking about the linked ABS brakes on the CBR250. Applying the rear brake automatically applies a little front brake, but applying the front brake doesn't affect the rear. Most linked systems apply 30% of the braking power back to the front if only the rear is used and it's just another way to prevent locking the rear wheels on ABS systems.

Ah. Well I think he'd want it the other way around if he's looking for an alternative to hand-operated front brakes!