POLL: 300s in a "250" class

[iZapp]

with Honda likely to be replacing their single cylinder 250 with a more potent 300, and Kawasaki no longer offering a 250, racing organizations around the country are surely going to be revising their small displacement class (dominated by the Ninja) to 300cc. Maybe not in 2014, but possibly.

So the question becomes what do with all of our soon to be uncompetitive 250s. The reality is that with nearly 10 more hp, the gap between an EX250 and 300 will be about what it is today between a CBR250 and Ninja 250, and to remain competitive we'll all either need to trade in our bikes, or build up the 250 with big-bore, cams, etc to close the gap.

Is there a precedent for this in other classes, will racing orgs allow mods to the 250 to let it run with a 300 class??? Our season is over and i've got a bone stock motor on the bench that i'd be inclined to build over the wintertime, provided it ends up being legal. Got me doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations...

The practical limit for big bore on the 250 is about 300cc, and that requires some case boring (not just a simple cylinder swap). By virtue of just the displacement increase, the theoretical gain is about 20% or about 30 hp from 25 in nice round numbers, but that assumes the stock heads can flow that amount of air. Since the EX300 claims to make in the neighborhood of 35, there's still about 15% needed so it'd need a set of performance cams and maybe some mild port work. Wouldnt bother with EFI.

So, for spending somewhere south of a grand i might have a competitive "250" again. Is it worth it? Or start from scratch with a 300.

[Jiggles]

How about formula 250s vs super stock 300s?

[RacerX113]

I’m hoping that WERA will keep the ESS class as it is with the 250. That being said, if they did let the 300 in I would race the 250 as is until I could find a wrecked 300 to build. By the way does anyone know if the race bits on the 250 (rearsets, clipons, body work, sprockets,etc) would be a direct swap to the 300?

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by RacerX113

By the way does anyone know if the race bits on the 250 (rearsets, clipons, body work, sprockets,etc) would be a direct swap to the 300?

Doug, check out this thread, there's many parts that are a direct swap (including rearsets and clipons

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=115601


Also check out some of the build threads from Peanut_EOD, diwhite (I think that's his name), Sprinter, and a few others. There's lots of crossover in parts that fit.

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

How about formula 250s vs super stock 300s?

yah, i guess thats what i'm suggesting. admittedly i havent been around road racing long enough to know exactly what "formula" means but it sound like it opens the door for certain mods. is there any precedent for this sort of class structure?

Originally Posted by RacerX113

I’m hoping that WERA will keep the ESS class as it is with the 250.

if the ESS class stays the same, then how do new guys get in - buy "old" bikes? i realize the SV650 twin class is extremely popular even though the bike has been obsolete for a while, but the difference is there was never a replacement offered (no SV700 for example) so the class remained, with no changes needed.

do you think that the racings orgs will drag their feet for a while (i hope so), or will they get pressure to update (from who?)? i can tell you that last year American Honda was offering serious cash for wins in our local racing series (like 700 for 1st) so they must be looking at amatuer racing to help promote their bikes - they might be interested in seeing this happen sooner than later.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Doug, check out this thread, there's many parts that are a direct swap (including rearsets and clipons

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=115601


Also check out some of the build threads from Peanut_EOD, diwhite (I think that's his name), Sprinter, and a few others. There's lots of crossover in parts that fit.

Rearsets are not a direct swap. You do have to rekerjigger the brake cylinder thingy.

[Jiggles]

Formula means pretty much any mod goes, I'd say make it any mod aside from work on the engine. Super stock means very little mods, maybe an exhaust but that's it

[csmith12]

hmmmm.... subbed

[RacerX113]

Originally Posted by iZapp

yah, i guess thats what i'm suggesting. admittedly i havent been around road racing long enough to know exactly what "formula" means but it sound like it opens the door for certain mods. is there any precedent for this sort of class structure?


if the ESS class stays the same, then how do new guys get in - buy "old" bikes? i realize the SV650 twin class is extremely popular even though the bike has been obsolete for a while, but the difference is there was never a replacement offered (no SV700 for example) so the class remained, with no changes needed.

do you think that the racings orgs will drag their feet for a while (i hope so), or will they get pressure to update (from who?)? i can tell you that last year American Honda was offering serious cash for wins in our local racing series (like 700 for 1st) so they must be looking at amatuer racing to help promote their bikes - they might be interested in seeing this happen sooner than later.

There are plenty of existing 250 race bikes available and used/crashed 250s to turn into race bikes for anyone looking into getting into racing. You can buy a competive race ready 250 for under $3000 or do what I did and find a good deal on a minor crash one and build it yourself. I think I have about $3000 in mine. I think that is one of the reasons the SV class was so pobular, you could go race with minimal investment.

If the 300s are allowed in the same class then you would need to buy one at 5000 + 1500 in race parts and it gets a little pricey, and makes the affordable 250 obsolete.

Now if Kawasaki decides it wants to follow Honda and start offering that kind of money, it would draw some really fast guys and the average Joe would most likely still be paying more to race.

I think the 300 would be a blast to race and a better platform than the 250, I'm just cheap.

[sierrahotel]

Originally Posted by RacerX113

There are plenty of existing 250 race bikes available and used/crashed 250s to turn into race bikes for anyone looking into getting into racing. You can buy a competive race ready 250 for under $3000 or do what I did and find a good deal on a minor crash one and build it yourself. I think I have about $3000 in mine. I think that is one of the reasons the SV class was so pobular, you could go race with minimal investment.

If the 300s are allowed in the same class then you would need to buy one at 5000 + 1500 in race parts and it gets a little pricey, and makes the affordable 250 obsolete.

Now if Kawasaki decides it wants to follow Honda and start offering that kind of money, it would draw some really fast guys and the average Joe would most likely still be paying more to race.

I think the 300 would be a blast to race and a better platform than the 250, I'm just cheap.

We went through this whole debate in socal. The org allows 300's in the class now just because there aren't many of them. It sucks.

The SV class is still popular even though its been out of production for a couple years. It's no excuse to make a whole class of bikes obsolete.

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by RacerX113

Now if Kawasaki decides it wants to follow Honda and start offering that kind of money, it would draw some really fast guys and the average Joe would most likely still be paying more to race.

a bit of a tangent here, but i wonder how competitive the new Honda CBR300 would be in the 250 class. If they'd offer contingency awards, that would really make this class interesting. begs the questions of why they did it with the CBR250 to begin with, which was very obviously a slower bike - did they expect to gain popularity with the occasional club race podium, enough to offset their award program investment? or was it a ploy to bait racers into buying their bikes.

[Havok]

My guess is most will let the 300s race with the 250s but score them differently till the 250s are pushed out. Its a bike that had only a 4 year production run so I would not expect race orgs to hold onto the "250"class like they did the sv 650s.

[dino74]

I won't lie, the 300 is a nice bike to ride on the track. But it is in the best interest of 250cc class not to allow 300cc. People race the 250s cause they are cheap and it will be years before the supply of new gen 250 gets sparse. Look at how many old gens are still for sale on CL.

[JBinSD]

I think once a "fast" guy starts winning, the sh*t will hit the fan and everyone will b*tch about the 300's. When I bought mine last year, EVERYONE bitched and moaned, until the found out how slow I am (mid-pack at best).
I think its in the best interest of the class (both 250 and 300) to let them race together until there are enough 300's on the grid to start their own class, but that will take years, and the 250's won't be hurt by that. Its a rare case where the early-adopters on the 300's "could" make a difference, just sadly (in my case) I'm not fast enough to piss anyone off (yet).

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by JBinSD

I think once a "fast" guy starts winning, the sh*t will hit the fan and everyone will b*tch about the 300's. When I bought mine last year, EVERYONE bitched and moaned, until the found out how slow I am (mid-pack at best).
I think its in the best interest of the class (both 250 and 300) to let them race together until there are enough 300's on the grid to start their own class, but that will take years, and the 250's won't be hurt by that. Its a rare case where the early-adopters on the 300's "could" make a difference, just sadly (in my case) I'm not fast enough to piss anyone off (yet).

i think most everyone that races is competitive (duh) and wont take lightly to getting beat by an "illegal" bike. If i was out there trying my best to get around the track faster than everyone else but was mid-pack, then some average dude comes along and starts running a faster bike that doesnt follow the rules, i'm sure as hell gonna bitch, mid pack or not. there was an older fellow in our club who usually got lapped by mid-race and when he rolled up with a brand new taped-up 300 there were a few ruffled feathers, even the fast guys.

for the short term I think the only choice you've got as a race organizer is to let them run with the 250s but score them seperately. question is then where to grid them: front because they're theoretically faster but potentially in the way of championship fighting 250s, or at the back of the grid to avoid that situation and even the playing field a bit. downside being this forces them to pass through the field (more dangerous).

just thinking. cause i cant ride till next year.

[cbinker]

Do what WSBK does to Ducati, add weight to the bikes.

[JBinSD]

CVMA deals with it by gridding based on qualifying times, so the fast guys are still up front, which makes sense. If I was in front of a bunch of fast guys that couldn't get around me, that wouldn't be fair either. I totally understand the resistance to change, but its gonna happen and I applaud CVMA for keeping it as fair as possible while letting as many people (and bikes) race as possible.

[ahamay]

My post doesn't really add to or take away from this debate but I'll post it anyway, I've got a 300 with full exhaust, area p tune, and k&n pods and the last track day I did my buddy who borrowed a first gen 250 that is bone stock would slightly pull me on the straights at streets of willow. Given I'm 6'6" and around 240/250ish in gear with him being about 50 pounds lighter than I, we actually had a blast battling it out. I figured the power to weight would put us just about even and I was right. Exiting a corner dead even by the end of the front straight he would have about half a bike on me. So maybe adding weight standards to the 300 is the way to go until there are more of them out their.

[Sirref]

personally I don't see it as that big of a problem, so long as they add limits of some form to the mods you can do on a 300 to give the 250 some ground then it should be fair game. i.e. full exhaust is fair game but full suspension mods are 250 only or something like that.

though seeing as the bike I want to race is my 250 rather than my 300 it really doesn't matter to me if someone has an advantage on me in terms of power. being on a 250/300 I'm generally used to the fact that most sport bikes are faster in a straight line. it should be a lightweight racing class for now until there are enough 300s out there to reasonably split it.

[rc racer]

Cmra based in Texas already posted in their forum a new class to replace ESS in 2014. The new class will be split into 250, 300, and 500 super stock. That way the new 300's and cbr500 have a place to race. All three classes will be in the same race but scored separately. Not sure but I think they will be in separate waves depending on entries.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by rc racer

Cmra based in Texas already posted in their forum a new class to replace ESS in 2014. The new class will be split into 250, 300, and 500 super stock. That way the new 300's and cbr500 have a place to race. All three classes will be in the same race but scored separately. Not sure but I think they will be in separate waves depending on entries.

that seems like an interesting idea but if you're going to do that why not just have them run the track separately unless there really aren't enough people to justify that.

[sharky nrk]

^^ I do think the 300s would be a "better" bike to track for all the obvious reasons, but cost alone keeps that as unrealistic for lots of people. I think that letting them run (250s, 300s, and 500s) at the same time in fine, but score them each in their own class and set them off in waves with a decent gap between and the bigger bikes first.

[Jiggles]

This poll is missing a poll

[dino74]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

This poll is missing a poll

[cbinker]

I guess i would add that if they want to allow 300s to race with 250r, could always allow removal of air box for the 250r, isnt there a bore kit for the 205 too?

[Aufitt]

Unless you are the very pointy end of the field within a second of the lap record, its not really going to make a difference.
The more small bikes/ the more the classes are supported.

*No I havnt ridden a 300 (are they THAT much faster laptimes with same rider?), but have a cbr250 and Ninja 250.

[rc racer]

Originally Posted by Sirref

that seems like an interesting idea but if you're going to do that why not just have them run the track separately unless there really aren't enough people to justify that.

Maybe not enough to justify and not enough time. In CMRA the minis and ESS sprint race on Saturday morning along with formula 7 through 4. All this happens before the mini endurance race then the big bike endurance so there is no time for a lot of stand alone classes. Then Sunday all the bike bikes have their sprint races.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

No I havnt ridden a 300 (are they THAT much faster laptimes with same rider?), but have a cbr250 and Ninja 250.

I mean look at it this way. All other things equal, a 250 with full exhaust and really good jetting gets 31-ish hp and does 60 with a really good rider in 6 seconds flat, 6.25 with an average street rider. A 300 with full exhaust and good tune is pushing around 38-ish hp and is able to run 0-60 in 6 seconds flat with an average street rider (with that same really good rider, I'd guess 5.75 is possible). If you put a good or moderate track rider on that, the cornering speed should be the same, but the acceleration alone should be enough to make a big difference. If any of those pointy-ended riders are on a well sorted 300, the difference in lap times could be huge. The straights and corner exits are always where small bikes lose time; improving those should help a lot.

That's my thinking. Peanut (and others who have switched) would be able to speak put of more experience.

[Sirref]

owning both a 250 and a 300, I can verify that the acceleration difference is noticeable but what's more noticeable is the midrange bump through corners, the 300 exits corners significantly faster than the 250 (though that could just be more experience/skill I do believe it is clearly a faster bike as well)

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

Unless you are the very pointy end of the field within a second of the lap record, its not really going to make a difference.
The more small bikes/ the more the classes are supported.

*No I havnt ridden a 300 (are they THAT much faster laptimes with same rider?), but have a cbr250 and Ninja 250.

how much faster is your ninja than the cbr??? that's going to be the difference between EXs. in our org all the cbrs had left the party by mid season.

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I mean look at it this way. All other things equal, a 250 with full exhaust and really good jetting gets 31-ish hp and does 60 with a really good rider in 6 seconds flat, 6.25 with an average street rider. A 300 with full exhaust and good tune is pushing around 38-ish hp and is able to run 0-60 in 6 seconds flat with an average street rider (with that same really good rider, I'd guess 5.75 is possible). If you put a good or moderate track rider on that, the cornering speed should be the same, but the acceleration alone should be enough to make a big difference. If any of those pointy-ended riders are on a well sorted 300, the difference in lap times could be huge. The straights and corner exits are always where small bikes lose time; improving those should help a lot.

That's my thinking. Peanut (and others who have switched) would be able to speak put of more experience.

How much of a difference does FI make over carbs?
How about Elevation?

[choneofakind]

Fi is a more precise way of mixing fuel. Since it's precise, that means you can accurately tune the right mixture. Theoretically, you should be able to jet a carb and program an ecu to deliver the same fuel mixture and make the same power for that bike with that setup in that location with that set of weather conditions. Fi has sensors and applies that mixture over a large range of temps/elevations/air pressures/etc etc.

From my experience with FI and carbs back to back on my bike, carbs are easier to tune while FI has quicker/more sensitive throttle response and smoother midrange.

Elevation isn't an issue for either. However, a different elevation than the carbs were tuned for will cause the mixture to be wrong for a carb'd bike. Like I said, FI compensates for air density and pressure, carbs require manually changing the jetting.

[KazMan]

For the AFM, the 300cc single cylinder Honda is legal for the 250 Prod class. The twin cylinder Kawasaki is not.

[ninja250r81]

Originally Posted by cbinker

Do what WSBK does to Ducati, add weight to the bikes.

combine 250cc and 300cc, but add weight to the 300cc to parity the field.

ninja 250r - 24kw @ 170kg = 0.083
ninja 300r - 26kw @ 175kg = 0.090

ninja 300r - add 14kg to 189kg = 0.083

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by ninja250r81

combine 250cc and 300cc, but add weight to the 300cc to parity the field.

ninja 250r - 24kw @ 170kg = 0.083
ninja 300r - 26kw @ 175kg = 0.090

ninja 300r - add 14kg to 189kg = 0.083

i see a few issues with this solution, first being the magnitude of the assumed values. the power difference figures i've seen are MUCH higher than that - for sure, it's at least proportional to the displacement increase, and published numbers put it even higher.

the second is that although the weight (of bike AND rider) impact the acceleration potential of the bike, it has negligible impact on maximum/top speed which is where the biggest difference is usually noticed with this 'underpowered' class.

the third and most significant is that the additional weight needed to achieve "parity" is equivalent to carrying another rider along with you. you can massage the numbers a little, but getting the ballast down to some safe/reasonable value is ultimately impractical.

[ninja250r81]

I don't care about exact numbers, but it was an idea of what could be done.

Also

There could be restrictor plates put in the intake of the 300cc with addition of ballast, like nascar?

rider weight

I don't see John Hopkins 72kg whinge about Dani Pedrosa's weight at 51kg

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by ninja250r81

I don't care about exact numbers, but it was an idea of what could be done.

the difference between your 14 kg and my 215 lb (97 kg) is not trivial. the reason WSBK can do it is because the numbers are small enough that it works.

Originally Posted by ninja250r81

There could be restrictor plates put in the intake of the 300cc with addition of ballast, like nascar?

interesting idea. someone would have to do some dyno tests to determine the correct restrictor size. then the bikes would need retune.

[KazMan]

in my humble observation of raceday agenda, you want something that Tech can easily inspect and enforce. Restrictor plates become an issue if you have to remove the airbox to look through the carb. And anybody who has done jetting to a production bike knows how easy removing the airbox is.

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by KazMan

in my humble observation of raceday agenda, you want something that Tech can easily inspect and enforce. Restrictor plates become an issue if you have to remove the airbox to look through the carb. And anybody who has done jetting to a production bike knows how easy removing the airbox is.

remove side airbox cover, remove filter element, and insert L-shaped go-no-go gauge into the throttle body inlet (the restrictor inserts could be placed into the TB inlet, upstream of the throttle plate). the gauge is slightly larger than the restrictor diameter, and if it "doesnt go" - you're OK to race!

admittedly a PITA, but would work. however, how many 300 owners are going to want to de-rate their bikes? you just spent 6 grand to build a race ready track bike and now you have to put a cork in it??? guessing that'll go over like a fart in church.

[Racer x]

Punch the 250 out to 265 or 282 and blow the 300 away.