Tire Wars 2016..... What to Race on?

[tgold]

I was going to talk about this in my thread on endurance racing, but I figured that a discussion about race tires deserved its own thread. Hopefully it won't turn into a "What kind of oil is best?" type of thread, but here we go:

I've been going through what the viable options are for race tires on my 250 Ninja, and here's what I've come up with so far along with the pro's and cons that I am aware of (be aware that I'm looking at this from more of a racing prespective than a trackday perspective):




Dunlop Alpha 13's:
Pro: Relatively inexpensive ($270.00 shipped from Race Tire Service.)

Pro: Folks are saying that they are fairly durable tires. Could be good for longer endurance races where you don't want to change tires if possible.

Con: Outright grip does not seem to be on par with true race tires. I'll admit I haven't found much solid info on the Alpha 13's, but I'm not finding that serious racers are beating down Dunlop's door to use them. They are the spec tire for the KTM RC390 race series in MotoAmerica. Spec race tire does not necessarily mean "great race tire". It means that everybody in the series has to use the same tire, so it levels the playing field. This has previously been the case with the AMA 600 Supersport classes and the Dunlop spec tire. In general the AMA racers used the tire because they had to, but front running club racers who ran on Dunlops typically used non-AMA spec tires because they worked better. Dunlop's own description of the Alpha 13 is that it is a "Hypersport tire" so that tells me a lot about the level of outright grip. From that perspective it's a con to me.




Dunlop 125cc slicks:

Pro: Price is pretty good. ($280.00 shipped from Race Tire Service)

Pro: Grip is going to be good (at least for a little while)

Pro: They are light. Best place possible to save weight on a bike.

Con: They are designed for bikes that are at lest 150lbs lighter than the 250 Ninja. That means the tire life is going to suck.

Con: The tire profile is designed for a bike that is expected to lean much further than the 250 Ninja.

Con: The compounds available from Dunlop are too soft for good durability.

Con: Dunlop does not actually recommend them for 250 Ninjas like they do with their 125cc rain tires.

Con: I don't know anybody that is using them.




Bridgestone 125 CC slicks:

Pro: Harder compounds available to suit the 250 Ninja better.

Pro: They are light. Best place possible to save weight on a bike.

Con: Still not going to be as long lasting as other more suitable race tires.

Con: They are designed for bikes that are at lest 150lbs lighter than the 250 Ninja. That means the tire life is going to suck.

Con: The tire profile is designed for a bike that is expected to lean much further than the 250 Ninja.

Con: Price. More expensive at $340.00 from Sportbike Upgrades

Con: Questionable suitability as a good race tire for the 250 Ninja. Yes, there are guys (mostly on the west coast) that are making them work, but I had an conversation with the highly respected tire guy "Stickboy" who is the go-to guy for WERA racers and he admitted that some guys are making them work, but there are others that put them on and do not like them at all.




Pirelli Supercorsa:

Pro: True race tire. The most popular choice for racers at the pointy end of the field.

Pro: Tires are available in the correct width (110 front and 140 rear) although I do see that a lot of folks are using the 150 rear. Pirelli made the 140 available after the 150. Using the 150 make zero sense now that the 140 is out there. The 150 is heavier and you can't use all of the tread because of the pinching on the 3.5" rim. Wasted extra weight in the worst place possible.

Pro: Durable race tire. Especially compared to the 125cc slicks.

Con: More expensive at $345.00 From Orion Motorsports. (Shipping cost unknown)

Note: the 150 rear is available in SC1 and SC2 compounds




Pirelli 125cc sized slicks:

Pro: Price isn't too bad: $270.00 from Orion Motorsports. Shipping cost unknown though.

Pro: They are light. Best place possible to save weight on a bike.

Pro: Three compounds available for the rear.

Con: They are designed for bikes that are at lest 150lbs lighter than the 250 Ninja. That means the tire life is going to suck.

Con: The tire profile is designed for a bike that is expected to lean much further than the 250 Ninja.




Bridgestone R10 Race DOT tire (this is new this season):

Pro: True race tire in the right sizes for the 250 Ninja (110 front 140 rear)

Note: Stickboy says that the heavier riders are liking the 120 R10 width front as an option.

Pro?: Reviews so far are very positive. Not a lot of them though.

Pro: Price. $300.00 shipped from Stickboy

Pro: Bridgestone almost always has the best contingency available.

Pro: Almost certainly more durable than the 125cc race slicks.




A note on rain tires: IMO, If you want to be competitive in the rain, 125cc sized rains are the only real option. Tire life will suck, but the grip will be there. Bridgestone, Dunlop, or Pirelli will all be better than any of the other options.




So, my decision (so far) is to go with the new Bridgestone R10's because I think that they will provide the best balance of grip, durability, price and contingency.

Hopefully this will be a helpful thread in making decisions for race tires. Please discuss.





Links to tire distributors/ sellers (You may need to find different vendors depending on the region of the country you live in):

Dunlop Alpha 13's and 125cc slicks:

Race Tire Service: http://stores.racetireservice.com/AL...inja-KTM-390/#

Pirelli Supercorsa SC, 125cc slicks, 125cc rains: http://www.orionmotorsports.ca/shop/

Bridgestone R10, 125cc slicks & rains: Stickboy Racing: http://stickboyracing.com/

[AwDang]

I've run the 'Stones R10/S20 and the A13's

I like the turn in of the 'Stone front better. But the cost and wear of the A13 made them my replacement tires.

[cbinker]

depends on which tires make you faster.

B-stone slicks are currently the tires that make me fastest, and they are relatively cheap from my vendor.

[tgold]

Certainly what works for the individual racer is a huge factor. For me, I'm willing to give a little bit of the outright speed potential for a big gain in durability. I have serious doubts that a 125cc rear slick will last for an entire 3hr endurance race especially when at least part of that race the bike will have a full fuel load and some heavier riders as well. I'm thinking that the new RS10's will be a huge step forward for Bridgestone since they really didn't have a true race tire suited to the Ninjette. Quite possibly enough to make up for the shortcomings of the 125cc slicks. But in the end, what works for the individual rider is whatever they are comfortable with.

[Foxrider64]

My next set will be the R10's

I tried the s20 Evos but they felt sloppy, almost unpredictable.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Has anybody ever put a skinnier rim on the ninjette and ran the 125 tires on their proper rims, along with some modifications so they could lean the bike over farther.

[tgold]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Has anybody ever put a skinnier rim on the ninjette and ran the 125 tires on their proper rims, along with some modifications so they could lean the bike over farther.

I had been thinking about doing just that previously. However (IMO), it isn't that simple. A Honda RS125 weighs under 160lbs. Less than half the weight of the average 250 Ninja racebike. So racing the 250 Ninja on the same tires is basically like taking an RS125, strapping on two 80lb sacks of concrete, and heading out on the racetrack. Only you'd have a far less capable chassis with the Ninjette. Don't expect the same results from the tires.

[Yamahawk]

I used the Pirelli Superbike Diablo slicks on my 1989 VTR250 Interceptor with 2.5" front rim and 3" rear rim, and they stuck like glue! They were fairly durable, also with 7-8 races and a fair amount of track day time on them (6-8 days). The sizes were 115/70-17 rear and 100/70-17 front, I believe they were SC1's also. I replaced them with the Diablo SuperCorsa's and they changed the handling due to the higher profile, and added weight. I had to raise the front end, and it got rid of 95% of the rear scalloping in the kink at Nelson Ledges. If I were going to replace the SuperCorsa's, I wold try the Dunlop 125GP slicks on the narrower rims, as they seem like a very nice tire, and I could be subjective about the comparison.
Now, for the 1986 Ninja I am building, I have a 3.5" rear rim, and a 3" front rim, and am thinking about the Dunlop Alpha 13's in 110/70-17 front and 150/60-17 rear, or the Unbeatable rear tire in the same size. I know the Pirelli SuperCorsa's are a great tire, and would not hesitate in using them on it, as they work real well, and the wider rims would spread them out ok. So, I am still thinking what tire I would use on the Ninja!

[Sirref]

I plan to run the R10 bridgestones as well this season. I'm starting out on the 003rs left over from last season and will be switching in april or may. I don't believe I'll be looking back after I switch except to get second hand dunlops for practice (bridgestone only in CCS due to contingency payout potential)

no idea what I'm doing for rains, I think I may just not get any and go slow in the rain unless I get my hands on a new set of wheels

[Yamahawk]

I don't see to R10's listed on Stickboy's website yet, except for the larger sizes. I didn't see the 110/70-17 or the 140/70-17 listed yet, is it because they are too new? They might be worth checking out for my Ninja build, if I could find some info about them. Does Bridgestone have them listed on their site? I will try to find them.

EDIT: I have not found these sizes listed at all on any website. Even Bridgestone doesn't have them listed yet, so where can they be found??

[tgold]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

I don't see to R10's listed on Stickboy's website yet, except for the larger sizes. I didn't see the 110/70-17 or the 140/70-17 listed yet, is it because they are too new? They might be worth checking out for my Ninja build, if I could find some info about them. Does Bridgestone have them listed on their site? I will try to find them.

EDIT: I have not found these sizes listed at all on any website. Even Bridgestone doesn't have them listed yet, so where can they be found??

Call Stickboy. He has them. Yes they are new.

Viets performance has them on their website, but Stickboy's prices are better.

[Z1R rider]

Bridgestone is a little confusing as they have RS10, RS10R, R10 and R10EVO, each a little different. I ordered a set of RS10 in 110 and 140 size, won't get them mounted and tried till the end of May at our first trackday.

http://www.bridgestone.com/products/...ex.html#sports

[Z1R rider]

Here's Ari Henning's test on the RS10

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/mc...torcycle-tires


and then he went racing with the Stones



http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/lo...-racing#page-2



he used a 120-70 R10 on the front

100th post!

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by Z1R rider

Here's Ari Henning's test on the RS10

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/mc...torcycle-tires


and then he went racing with the Stones



http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/lo...-racing#page-2



he used a 120-70 R10 on the front

100th post!

What are the rim sizes on the KTM RC390? Do they run a 3" or 3.5" rim in front?
$300 shipped is a pretty good deal, only $30 more than the 125GP slicks or $20 more than the Appha 13's!

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by tgold

Call Stickboy. He has them. Yes they are new.

Viets performance has them on their website, but Stickboy's prices are better.

Viets has the RS listed on the website in a 110/140 but didn't see the R10 in those sizes.

[ULW]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

I don't see to R10's listed on Stickboy's website yet, except for the larger sizes. I didn't see the 110/70-17 or the 140/70-17 listed yet, is it because they are too new? They might be worth checking out for my Ninja build, if I could find some info about them. Does Bridgestone have them listed on their site? I will try to find them.

EDIT: I have not found these sizes listed at all on any website. Even Bridgestone doesn't have them listed yet, so where can they be found??

I got these from Viets -- $320 shipped from California, seems like Stickboy has them for $300... but I don't see a way to order online, and I don't want to talk to any humans

Bridgestone R10 Race DOT tire
http://viets-performance.com/s.nl/it.A/id.2442/.f

[Z1R rider]

Originally Posted by ArizonaSpeed

I got these from Viets -- $320 shipped from California, seems like Stickboy has them for $300... but I don't see a way to order online, and I don't want to talk to any humans

Bridgestone R10 Race DOT tire
http://viets-performance.com/s.nl/it.A/id.2442/.f

Link is to RS10's, not the same as an R10, I haven't heard of an R10 in smaller sizes to fit smaller bikes.

[ULW]

Originally Posted by Z1R rider

Link is to RS10's, not the same as an R10, I haven't heard of an R10 in smaller sizes to fit smaller bikes.

Wow, I didn't even realize it. Same page as the R10's and shown as a new tire at the bottom. Oh well.

[tgold]

I'm going to have to talk to Stickboy again. I was sure they were R10's front & back

[AwDang]

Originally Posted by tgold

I'm going to have to talk to Stickboy again. I was sure they were R10's front & back

FRT = R10 in a 120 wide
REAR = S20 evo in a 140 wide

[tgold]

Originally Posted by AwDang

FRT = R10 in a 120 wide
REAR = S20 evo in a 140 wide

For sure there is an RS10 140 wide rear. The question is whether there is an R10 140 wide rear. No way I'm running an S20.

[Z1R rider]

Originally Posted by tgold

I'm going to have to talk to Stickboy again. I was sure they were R10's front & back

Did you ever find R10's in smaller sizes?

[empire00]

Apologies for bumping a old thread. What would you recommend for someone just starting out with trackdays. I have ran through a few sets of BT016s on the street with no issues. Would the Rosso II be a good option or should I jump straight to a SC or the A13's. I want something that will survive for 3-4 trackdays and provide enough grip to start setting and testing my suspension.

[toEleven]

The thread isn't that old. For your first trackday? Familiar tires in the best condition possible (but probably not literally brand new). Get comfy in a trackday environment, assess if your pace is adequate to push the rubber you have, then start investing. .
Also, it's a 250 - they aren't that hard on tires.

[Z1R rider]

I think it depends on how hard you can push them, it's my understanding the more racy (sticky) the tire, the more heat you need to get in them to make them work right. I'm going to try the RS10 Bridgestones and hope I can get them up to temp. without using warmers. I've been using Metzeler Laser Tec (a sport touring tire) on one of the bikes and Shinko 740 & 741 on another for the last 2 years on the track and had to move the footpegs up as they were dragging way to often. This past year the Metzelers were running off the tread on the front (and starting to lose traction) and the Shinkos are short enough (stock sizes) hard parts were hitting at times, so I've upgraded to 17" wheels with a more sport oriented tire.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Foxrider64

I tried the s20 Evos but they felt sloppy, almost unpredictable.

You know I hated the evo's in FL, sloppy and a lot of feedback that I didn't need. Not sure what is next for me right now.

[toEleven]

...
A note on rain tires: IMO, If you want to be competitive in the rain, 125cc sized rains are the only real option. Tire life will suck, but the grip will be there. Bridgestone, Dunlop, or Pirelli will all be better than any of the other options.
...

Apologies if I missed it elsewhere in the thread: does anyone have any specific '2nd best' suggestions for rain tires? I have no basis to dispute the viability of the 125cc rains, but I'm definitely interested in more opinions (or even further affirmations of the above suggestion).

[tgold]

Originally Posted by toEleven

Apologies if I missed it elsewhere in the thread: does anyone have any specific '2nd best' suggestions for rain tires? I have no basis to dispute the viability of the 125cc rains, but I'm definitely interested in more opinions (or even further affirmations of the above suggestion).

Well, since I already have a set of Pirelli rains that came with the bike I haven't actually researched other options. Most everything but real rains will pale in comparison as far as grip & water shedding ability.

Having said that, the only time I can recall crashing in a rain race was when I had full wets. Doh! Now I know that softening the suspension is important when racing in the rain.

I don't really believe it, but the old joke about rain tires is that they just allow you to go faster before you crash

[csmith12]

I have racing on the Pirelli rains. 2014 was soooooo wet. They did the job. I searched high and low for other options. We even ran 2 fat man 120 rain fronts that did ok, not ideal... just ok (a 120 on both front and rear). lol

[tgold]

Well, I just had my tire choice made a lot simpler. I was planning on replacing the Pirelli Supercorsas on my bike because the front tire had a small crack from freezing over the winter. After speaking to the East Coast Pirelli Race tire distributor about it, he basically said that the freeze cracks aren't a big deal because the crack should only be in the the tread compound layer and not in the part that actuall holds air. He told me to just keep an eye on it.

So that makes the tire choice easier and cheaper for now. I'm just going to order a 140 Supercorsa SC2 compound rear because the front is in pretty good shape.

As for the Bridgestone RS10 tires, I was mistaken that they are real race compound tires. Although they are supposed to be pretty good for the 250 Ninjas, they are more like Hypersport tires. I may try them anyway later in the season when I'm ready to replace the Pirellis.

[csmith12]

I aint riding any tire that has cracks in it, don't care what they say about it. The SC2 is awesome!

[tgold]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I aint riding any tire that has cracks in it, don't care what they say about it. The SC2 is awesome!

Your choice for sure, but I'm looking at it like this: It is really not much different than sipes (the narrow grooves that look like slits) in a tire and no one gets worried about those.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by tgold

Your choice for sure, but I'm looking at it like this: It is really not much different than sipes (the narrow grooves that look like slits) in a tire and no one gets worried about those.

Except for one thing: If a tire is hard enough to crack, do you really want to trust your traction to it?

Also, sipes =/= cracks in any way shape or form. The rubber has separated from itself.

[tgold]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Except for one thing: If a tire is hard enough to crack, do you really want to trust your traction to it?

Also, sipes =/= cracks in any way shape or form. The rubber has separated from itself.

It gets hard with a decrease in temperature and then it gets soft with an increase in temp. It doesn't stay one way. Same as any other tire.

At first I wasn't going to use it. However, after talking to a tire distributor who knows the tires and who is making a recommendation that is not exactly in his best interest i.e. he's selling me one less tire and he's opening himself up to the that fact many people are sue-happy if things go wrong.


Beside that, I'm treating this like any time I go out on the racetrack with a new bike. I don't go balls to the wall on the first lap. I do a few laps at a snails pace and come in and check the bike over, and gradually increase my speed and recheck from there.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I aint riding any tire that has cracks in it, don't care what they say about it. The SC2 is awesome!

I am on this side of the fence as well. More from a paranoid and confidence side than anything. Like the tire may be fine, no issues running it ...... but I know I am going to be thinking about it ALL the way around the track for a while lol.

[tgold]

What are you all thinking is going to happen with this tire?

Seriously though, have any of you ridden on a tire with a small cut in the tread? This is the same as a 3/4" long little cut from a piece of debris.

And for those who missed it before, the crack is in the tread which is the strip of rubber that is laid on top of the part that has the belts and actually holds air. It is not the same. It is on a non-structural part of the tire.

Another question: Racers still hand cut grooves in their tires to make their own "intermediate" tires. How is this small cut any worse than doing a whole tire with a groover?

Believe it or not, I am not one who takes wild risks on the racetrack.


So I'll make you all a deal. Everyone who gets a freeze crack in their tire can just pm me and I'll send them a prepaid shipping label with my address on it and they can ship the tire to me and I'll "dispose" of it properly.

[csmith12]

I don't know what is going to happen to the tire, and hence my problem with it. It's more of a "well, this is seen on the surface... what "can't" I see?"

I have run with small cuts from debris, but within reason know I ran over something and can at least vaguely estimate tire damage. Can't tell squat from freezing though.

Honestly, I am skeered. lol

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I don't know what is going to happen to the tire, and hence my problem with it. It's more of a "well, this is seen on the surface... what "can't" I see?"

I have run with small cuts from debris, but within reason know I ran over something and can at least vaguely estimate tire damage. Can't tell squat from freezing though.

Honestly, I am skeered. lol

LOL, this. Honestly nothing is probably going to happen to the tire but again ... mostly being paranoid. I do enough things wrong on a bike with perfect tires.

[Absolut]

Does Perelli allow their vendors to sell race tires online? I can't seem to locate one via Google, only their street tires.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Absolut

Does Perelli allow their vendors to sell race tires online? I can't seem to locate one via Google, only their street tires.

You looking for the SuperCorsa's? Or Superbikes? The vendor for our club sells online.

https://solperformance.com/collectio...iant=936206691