Suzuki Super Ninja.

[N-m]

I understand economics but don't understand why Suzuki can't sell these today, or Kawasaki with different badges for that matter.

http://www.bike-urious.com/1990-suzuki-rgv250-v21/

[csmith12]

I aint the smartest man in the room, but I am pretty sure we (US) have been long done with 2 strokes in street clothes. Emissions and such...

[N-m]

Excellent point. We do all have a funky dreams, however. Especially in the motorcycle industry.

Example: My dream drive train for a motorcycle will be around 1,000 CC's, get one hundred miles per gallon with no less torque/power and have a wet weight for the bike af about 400 pounds...

...or perhaps just a Ninja 250 with more leg room and 76.89 HP in the typical RPM range.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I aint the smartest man in the room, but I am pretty sure we (US) have been long done with 2 strokes in street clothes. Emissions and such...

it isn't emissions anymore. it's all politics and corporate warfare. ktm produces 2 strokes that comply with all emission regulations in terms of exhaust and emission. but ARB still wont let them sell them in the US. why? "because its a dirty 2-stroke" is the answer every time. regardless of how much they actually emit. it's BS politics now. in 10 years you probably wont be able to get a gasoline engine anymore.

[N-m]

...or you may simply not be able to afford a gasoline engine anymore. If taxes, gas taxes and gas continue to increase the industry will die all the same.

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by alex.s

it isn't emissions anymore. it's all politics and corporate warfare. ktm produces 2 strokes that comply with all emission regulations in terms of exhaust and emission. but ARB still wont let them sell them in the US. why? "because its a dirty 2-stroke" is the answer every time. regardless of how much they actually emit. it's BS politics now. in 10 years you probably wont be able to get a gasoline engine anymore.

Wrong! two strokes are street legal in and still being sold in Ohio. I could buy a brand new two stroke ktm, beta, or gas gas enduro bike right now that could be ridden legally on the street.

It's just in your hippie state that they are outlawed.

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by N-m

...or you may simply not be able to afford a gasoline engine anymore. If taxes, gas taxes and gas continue to increase the industry will die all the same.

gas prices are on the decline.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by cbinker

gas prices are on the decline.

temporarily, the arab emirates are undercutting the price of fracking trying to drive fracking out of business before bringing the prices back up

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by cbinker

gas prices are on the decline.

I wouldn't bet on this being permanent. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[Sirref]

shame that bike has probably sold by now, I'd ride the piss out of one of those for $1000

[Worldtraveller]

Much as I love my Ninjette, if I could get a VTR 250 with modern components, I would trade my baby ninja in a heartbeat.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by alex.s

ktm produces 2 strokes that comply with all emission regulations in terms of exhaust and emission. but ARB still wont let them sell them in the US. why? "because its a dirty 2-stroke" is the answer every time. regardless of how much they actually emit.

I'm pretty sure KTM's 2-strokes do not comply with street emissions regulations either in Europe or the US. What they do achieve is meeting green-sticker requirements for off-road bikes, which was once considered less likely for 2-stroke machines. Those requirements are much looser than for streetbikes / cars. I'm finding it very hard to convert between the two standards to show this, so would certainly appreciate anyone that knows the data better than I can find to chime in.

The on-road motorcycle requirements are given in in g/km:



Surprisingly to me at least, the CA requirements match the Federal requirements. The CA differences are more around evaporative emissions, not running emissions.
link 1, link 2

while the off-road requirements (green sticker California) are measured in either grams/kwhr or grams/bhp-hr:



link 1

Someone smarter than me should work on a conversion to show how the offroad requirements are much less restrictive based on those limits, or turn out to be very similar based on those limits. My google-fu so far has come up with explanations why those conversions aren't trivial (like this one).

That said, what KTM has disclosed is that it has the capability to produce such a motor (street-legal 2-stroke). It takes direct injection and a few more technologies, but it's certainly not science fiction. It's just cost-prohibitive for much of the motorcycle market.

Some discussion on modern 2-strokes here:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/02/07...e-streetbikes/
http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/08/13...-resurrection/
http://www.technologyreview.com/news...-stroke-engine

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

Wrong! two strokes are street legal in and still being sold in Ohio. I could buy a brand new two stroke ktm, beta, or gas gas enduro bike right now that could be ridden legally on the street.

Are you sure that they would actually be legal? The 2-strokes you've described that are brought into the country don't have street VINs. I don't see how Ohio can still plate a bike that hasn't met federal standards for street machines. Sure, the enduro bike will have a headlight, brake light, and maybe even turn signals to show a DMV employee why it should be allowed on the street. But it's still not a street vehicle?

(Not denying that you very well may be able to plate such a bike just as you say, but I still don't see how it would be legal)

[choneofakind]

It's legal if you never get caught!

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by Alex

Are you sure that they would actually be legal? The 2-strokes you've described that are brought into the country don't have street VINs. I don't see how Ohio can still plate a bike that hasn't met federal standards for street machines. Sure, the enduro bike will have a headlight, brake light, and maybe even turn signals to show a DMV employee why it should be allowed on the street. But it's still not a street vehicle?

(Not denying that you very well may be able to plate such a bike just as you say, but I still don't see how it would be legal)

It's totally legal. I rode in a dual sport ride last fall that was an on road/off road ride for plated bikes only. There were quite a few two strokes that participated.

[choneofakind]

They could have been older 2-strokers that had been converted to street use with a kit and grandfathered into the new regulations.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

It's totally legal. I rode in a dual sport ride last fall that was an on road/off road ride for plated bikes only. There were quite a few two strokes that participated.

I'm pretty sure that's not the point. As Chone said, the bikes could either have been old enough to be classified as streetbikes, or they could be newer ones that got past a slow DMV employee (or were just running plates that the riders swapped from other bikes in the garage).

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

They could have been older 2-strokers that had been converted to street use with a kit and grandfathered into the new regulations.

Nope, I'm talking about 2013/14 models.

[ninjamunky85]

There was a bike for sale locally on c-list last fall, I believe it was a 2013 gas gas te300. It was being sold as a street titled motorcycle.

[Alex]

1 - That's awesome
2 - It still seems hard to believe that everything is above board

Here are Ohio's regs for motorscooters/minibikes. Ohio will actually let you get a plate on something that isn't necessarily street legal, but to do so you need to:

This can be accomplished in one of three ways:
- a letter from the manufacturer stating that the vehicle meets FMVSS
- a picture of the FMVSS sticker on the vehicle including the VIN or
- the manufacturer's certificate of origin (MCO) stating that the vehicle is FMVSS compliant.

None of that can happen on an offroad bike from any real manufacturer.

For the off-road motorcycle / APV rules, here is Ohio's page.

The second column goes through the details. At the bottom:

APV license plates do not entitle the rider to operate the APV on public roadways. Laws regarding operation of APV’s have not changed.

and:

Registration certificates for snowmobiles, off-highway motorcycles, minibikes, and trail bikes will continue to be accompanied by an alphanumeric decal that is applied to the vehicle.

The offroad bikes get stickers rather than plates, right? What am I missing?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

There was a bike for sale locally on c-list last fall, I believe it was a 2013 gas gas te300. It was being sold as a street titled motorcycle.

There continue to be dirtbikes sold in CA as well with street tags on them. They aren't legal. Eventually, they get caught one way or another and the plate goes away.

[csmith12]

Legally converting dirt machines into street machine happens all the time in OH, KY and most likely many other states, but I don't think that fits the overall thread purpose. To get close to that purpose, one could toss in a 2 stroke engine in a 250 frame and ride all they wanted on the street. But it isn't quite the same as a "manufacture" supported spec that many of us would love to ride race.

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by Alex

1 - That's awesome
2 - It still seems hard to believe that everything is above board

The offroad bikes get stickers rather than plates, right? What am I missing?

I don't know? My husaberg wasn't sold as a street legal motorcycle in the U.S. It came with a headlight and tail light, but they weren't even hooked up from the factory.

When I bought it I took the title to the BMV and was issued a plate without question. Been pulled over by the local 5-0 because they thought I didn't have a plate (covered with mud). The officer looked at my license, checked the VIN on the frame, chatted about my bike for a minute, and then let me on my way.

APV plates are for four wheelers. They can legally be ridden on the streets here too, in certain areas.

[csmith12]

/the secret to "legal" is 2 things
Body Style Change Affidavit
Vehicle Inspection

Then you can apply for a title if (you don't have one) or a new title that will be able to be plated by anyone at the BMV without a second thought.

pssss.... don't tell anybody.

[Alex]

I still think we're stuck on the word "legally". ADV continues to be a good resource on how people have gotten bikes plated in many states. It almost always involves some ethical shortcuts on the way to the plate, regardless of how often or easily it happens.

[csmith12]

Understood Alex, but not sure how much more legal the average Joe needs to get.

Body Change Form - check
Vehicle inspected to be roadworthy - check
Title in their name - check
Plate - check
Registration - check
Insurance - check

Armed with all the documentation, even if pulled over and given a ticket. I don't know of any judges that will find you in fault round my parts.

[ninjamunky85]

I think it's just because the laws are less strict here. We don't have emissions tests. Heck, you don't even need turn signals on your motorcycle.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Armed with all the documentation, even if pulled over and given a ticket. I don't know of any judges that will find you in fault round my parts.

I get it, really, but it's shades of gray.

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

I think it's just because the laws are less strict here. We don't have emissions tests. Heck, you don't even need turn signals on your motorcycle.

I sense myself getting tedious, but I shouldn't be able to find your laws any quicker than you can. Here are Ohio's laws requiring turn signals on any vehicle made since 1968: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4513.261

(2) No person shall operate any motorcycle or motor-driven cycle manufactured or assembled on or after January 1, 1968, unless the vehicle is equipped with electrical or mechanical directional signals.

I get that enforcement is lax to nonexistent. The AMA has a decent site that lists on-road/off-road laws by state: http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/...tate-Laws.aspx

I perked up with the oft-repeated hippie California crack, leading to incorrect explanations about how none of these silly laws are in place where the next poster lived.

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by Alex

I sense myself getting tedious, but I shouldn't be able to find your laws any quicker than you can. Here are Ohio's laws requiring turn signals on any vehicle made since 1968: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4513.261



I get that enforcement is lax to nonexistent. The AMA has a decent site that lists on-road/off-road laws by state: http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/...tate-Laws.aspx

I perked up with the oft-repeated hippie California crack, leading to incorrect explanations about how none of these silly laws are in place where the next poster lived.

Hmm, that's interesting. The officer that pulled me over agreed that I didn't need turn signals if I signaled with my hands.

I don't wanna say anything more, and instead will act like I never saw any of this. It's only illegal if you get caught.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Alex

I get it, really, but it's shades of gray.

Been waiting to give this one out for a while now...

[Jono]

This is how you do it.... http:// http://supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?144432-Get-a-Street-Legal-Title-and-Plate-for-ANY-Bike!

Apparently South Dakota wants money. I know this method can be tricky. I wouldn't want to try and jump through all these loopholes.

[Aufitt]

Common as a clit here.

*but why would you call it a 'Super Ninja' its nothing like any Ninja?

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by Jono

This is how you do it.... http:// http://supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?144432-Get-a-Street-Legal-Title-and-Plate-for-ANY-Bike!

Apparently South Dakota wants money. I know this method can be tricky. I wouldn't want to try and jump through all these loopholes.

SD isn't the only way.http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=655441

But Alex is right, this won't work in states like Cali or Florida. People who've done it eventually got their plates taken away.

[subxero]

As pointed out but others, there are literally a million ways to get non "legal" bikes on the road but most of which involve the state you plan on doing it in not really give 2 shits as long as you meet some basic requirements.

I have to agree with Alex on this one, it is a gray area. If the DMV and other regulatory people were following everything to a T it wouldn't happen so easily.

PA is pretty lax on this as well, I could go buy an offroad ktm 300 2 stroke today, go through the general equipment checklist and add what is needed take it to a notary who could care less, then to my mechanic buddy down the road for inspection and get a street plate for it tomorrow.

I imagine I would get pulled over fairly often and even with the paper work cops would give me a hard time, I am not sure how long it would last.

Old street bikes on the other hand should be no problem what so ever, they are grandfathered in no questions asked. I anticipate no problems when I go to get my rz street tags. I had even figured out a way to get rs250 cup bikes tagged and titled on the road if I was going to go that route.

where there is a will there is a way

[Bubba]

Two stroke technology is vastly different today than back then. Evinrude is still using two stroke.
They can make clean two strokes with D-FI tech.

From Sir Kevin Cameron:

"Why did former two-stroke builders Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki switch to four-strokes? The large automakers had the R&D clout to develop four-stroke emissions technology, after which the motorcycle makers could essentially buy that technology “off the shelf,” avoiding the R&D cost. It was thus cheaper to build four-strokes with cheap, proven emissions technology than to pioneer their own two-stroke emissions solutions year by year, as EPA tightened the requirements."

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/02/07...e-streetbikes/

[Ninjinsky]

The answer is stepped piston 2 strokes which use conventional sump lubrication so run clean


here is the full page description with a nice water cooled V4
http://users.breathe.com/prhooper/opads.htm

I remember what an engineering jewel the RGV was when it came out, all the aluminium detail. Every day stuff now but back then it was a revolution.

[ninjamunky85]

Back to the original topic, I don't think we will ever see a 250cc supersport bike again. Whether it be two or four sroke, from a cost vs demand standpoint it just wouldn't make sense.