turning, blah blah

[emoyer]

im a brand new rider (well, 11 months & almost 8K miles, but thats still brand new, kind of) who reads and tries to apply. --> dangerous, for a no-common-sense kind of guy like me.

so a few months ago i thought i was doing pretty well, for a beginner -- countersteering was becoming ingrained, i was beginning to love leaning, etc.

then i read something about leaning ones body more than the bike to conserve traction, etc. sounded good so i started trying it, little by little, and i could feel it working. it felt right. but it also kind of messed with what i had been ingraining about countersteering.

so i more or less gave up on the leaning more than the bike thing, but i also couldnt get back the feel i had before of the countersteering. i muddled along, continuing to ride as much as possible, things were ok. lately we have had several wet days & now the leaves are starting to fall so corners can be treacherous, and i have found myself, without meaning to, leaning more than the bike to conserve traction, and i think it is the right thing to do, when there might not be a lot of traction to be had.

and im starting to realize that even though an understanding of countersteering is crucial, a rider can in a given situation use whatever combination of weight shift & control inputs gets them thru the corner safely.

anyway today i stumbled across the video linked below, which shows a guy doing a twisty road with no hands, & i realized what was happening to my countersteering when i first tried leaning more then the bike -- it simply wasnt needed (as much).

so just wanted to throw that out there for any corrections in my thinking etc. maybe it is all painfully obvious to others.

have a great day.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuRlxpC9l-g

[Malicious Logic]

For having been riding as long as you have, I feel like you're overthinking countersteering WAY too much. IMO, once you're actually thinking about it, you're overthinking it. It's a word to describe what happens pretty much automatically when turning a 2-wheel vehicle.

I'm no turning expert so I won't flame the vid nor confirm/deny the over-leaning. The first thing that comes to mind when you mention that is the people who hang all the way off while their bike is barely leaned, just so they can drag knee. I think for someone like yourself who's having issues with simple countersteering and cornering, a more credible source such as TOTW would benefit you more.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by emoyer

.........lately we have had several wet days & now the leaves are starting to fall so corners can be treacherous, and i have found myself, without meaning to, leaning more than the bike to conserve traction, and i think it is the right thing to do, when there might not be a lot of traction to be had..........

I believe that you are correct regarding the weight shifting helping initiating a turn, Eric.

Note that higher speeds, heavier bike, more self-centering (stable) steering geometry and flatter roads will make the influence of weight shifting less significant.
In those conditions, counter-steering is much more effective and quick.

Clarification: Leaning your body more than the bike does not help the bike conserving traction (for moderate lean angles).

Leaning your body or not, the forces on the contact patches that try to skid the tires are the same and only depend on speed and radius of turn.
In slippery conditions, the only thing that you can manipulate is speed.

The hang-off technique is meant to keep the suspension working at a better angle (more vertical) during extreme turns.

[RedOctober]

Please ignore the dumbass video. People post all sorts of **** on the internet and believe they found something that nobody has thought of yet. Yes, you can steer the damn bike with your legs/hips only. No, it won't help you avoid the box that fell out of a truck 50 yards infront of you on a freeway. One of the reasons why that video shows what it shows is the fact that he's going downhill...his front tire is loaded much more than the example he's bashing, the no-BS bike in Twist of the Wrist 2. IIRC the no-BS bike does turn on horizontal surface but it does it extremely slow. More loaded front tire = fatter contact patch = better turning...that's why trail braking and hooking turns works!

As far as turning is concerned: do not overthink it. Countersteering is not something you have to keep in the back of your head every time you approach a turn..."ok, right turn coming up, I must initiate CS action by pushing on the right bar". No...you simply look into the turn, lean the bike over and go through, whether you hang off the bike or not. Think of how you do it (and I'm sitting here in a chair imagining it...) now:
- turn head to the right, see where you're going
- pull right with my shoulder which initiates the lean. This action, right here, is what actually CSes the bike, because pulling the shoulder into the turn slightly moves my arm forward "pushing on the bar".

Hang-off is more or less separate from CS. You can CS without hanging off (by riding perfectly inline with the bike), and you can kinda hang off without CS (for best example of this, watch motoGP...riders shift off the bike approaching the turn but they're still going straight)
Main purpose of hanging off is to shift the center of gravity of the rider and bike further outside from the turn, thus reducing the lean angle. Less lean = more contact patch
Note that "more contact patch" is not going to help you with wet leaves or gravel, if you read TotW2 it's throttle that gives you control in those situations. You can easily go down sitting up perfectly straight and going over wet leaves.

[alex.s]

i would enjoy watching one of those anti-countersteering people try to flick through a chicane with only their body weight shifting. haha

[Misti]

Originally Posted by emoyer

im a brand new rider (well, 11 months & almost 8K miles, but thats still brand new, kind of) who reads and tries to apply. --> dangerous, for a no-common-sense kind of guy like me.

so a few months ago i thought i was doing pretty well, for a beginner -- countersteering was becoming ingrained, i was beginning to love leaning, etc.

then i read something about leaning ones body more than the bike to conserve traction, etc. sounded good so i started trying it, little by little, and i could feel it working. it felt right. but it also kind of messed with what i had been ingraining about countersteering.

so i more or less gave up on the leaning more than the bike thing, but i also couldnt get back the feel i had before of the countersteering. i muddled along, continuing to ride as much as possible, things were ok. lately we have had several wet days & now the leaves are starting to fall so corners can be treacherous, and i have found myself, without meaning to, leaning more than the bike to conserve traction, and i think it is the right thing to do, when there might not be a lot of traction to be had.

and im starting to realize that even though an understanding of countersteering is crucial, a rider can in a given situation use whatever combination of weight shift & control inputs gets them thru the corner safely.

anyway today i stumbled across the video linked below, which shows a guy doing a twisty road with no hands, & i realized what was happening to my countersteering when i first tried leaning more then the bike -- it simply wasnt needed (as much).

so just wanted to throw that out there for any corrections in my thinking etc. maybe it is all painfully obvious to others.

have a great day.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuRlxpC9l-g

Can you explain to me a little bit more how you "countersteer" the bike and what you mean by saying that after watching the video "it wasn't needed as much?"

thanks,
Misti

[choneofakind]

Subscribed. I like reading Misti's riding skills advice.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Subscribed. I like reading Misti's riding skills advice.

Although I would bet, she is gunna say that while hanging off (leaning more than the bike) and with your head forward, one will tend to "hook" a tighter line with less lean angle. Seems the OP unknowingly stumbled upon it by trail and error.

I could see how a relatively new rider could interpret that for "not as much" countersteering is needed.

[choneofakind]

Combine that with the fact that when your head is down and you're hanging off, you tend to push the bars at an angle that is closer to perpendicular with the bar, rather than at a more shallow angle like you would when sitting upright. That also can be perceived as "less countersteering" because it requires less force to turn the bars about their axis.

I still like reading Misti's advice

[emoyer]

Originally Posted by Misti

Can you explain to me a little bit more how you "countersteer" the bike and what you mean by saying that after watching the video "it wasn't needed as much?"

thanks,
Misti

first, my thanks to everyone for their input. i appreciate it.

as to the question quoted above, i guess i will try to briefly explain my discovery process.

as you all know, they teach CS in the MSF BRC, and though the speeds are slow in the course i did start to feel it work.

then when i got my bike & got out on the roads at higher speeds, of course it was even more evident. especially when i found myself entering a turn on a line that was a little wide, i could just push harder on the inside grip & it would tighten up. it was great.

(it wasnt like i was obsessing about it, but i was *consciously* pushing on the inside grip to initiate or tighten turns. i hope someday it will all just be subconscious.)

anyway, then i read somewhere (this was a couple month ago) about leaning the body more than the bike so that the bike doesnt have to lean as much and therefore the tires will have better contact, so i tried to start doing that. and i found that i was making turns *without* pushing on the inside grip, at least not in the same way. and honestly sometimes it really seemed like i wasnt doing it at all.

this was disconcerting because it seemed like what i had been learning to depend on wasnt working the same way anymore.

so then i stopped trying to lean more than the bike, because i didnt want it to screw up the reflexes i had been learning & because i figured it probably didnt matter as much on the street anyway.

the video (regardless of whether it was good or bad) gave me an understanding (rightly or wrongly) about what had been happening when i was trying to lean more than the bike -- if it is possible to turn a motorcycle simply by shifting weight, which the video seems to prove, then it would seem that when i was shifting my weight it was necessarily reducing the amount of input necessary at the grips.

not sure what to do with that, but thats what all you folks are helping me with. and yes i do tend to overthink things, but i just like to understand.

sorry for being longwinded. thanks.

[emoyer]

Originally Posted by RedOctober

...Note that "more contact patch" is not going to help you with wet leaves or gravel, if you read TotW2 it's throttle that gives you control in those situations. You can easily go down sitting up perfectly straight and going over wet leaves.

TOTW2 (either book or video) is something i have been wanting to check out. i do not have any idea how the throttle helps in low-traction situations.

[dfox]

moving your body weight, and leaning the bike both do the same thing, that is, move the center of gravity towards the center of the circle. This helps to keep the bike upright due to the centripital force needed to keep you in the turn. Difference is, the bike weighs a lot more, but is closer to the ground. A combination of the two should be used for different situations.

on public roads, you shouldn't be getting to the point where you have to start hanging off the bike. If you are, then you're riding too fast and need to take a look at your riding habits in public spaces.

[Jim Moore]

Originally Posted by emoyer

(it wasnt like i was obsessing about it, but i was *consciously* pushing on the inside grip to initiate or tighten turns. i hope someday it will all just be subconscious.)

I don't think you want it to be subconcious. I think you want it to be very deliberate. Get your body set, look into the turn, then "bam!" press that handgrip hard to get the bike to lean quickly.

Most people get through the vast majority of their motorcycling lives by vaguely flopping in and out of turns with no thought process at all. It works OK, because most people know how to ride a bicycle and the techniques are similar. Everything is hunky-dory until that one day when they really need to make the bike turn, right now. The vague flopping doesn't work and they run off the road, or run into an opbject they could have missed. Don't be that person. Be the person who thinks, understands, and makes things happen.

[choneofakind]

You can hang off at any speed. I hang my upper body off because it helps me stay smooth. I don't race through twisties. I have a track for that.

Many skills from the track transfer over to street riding, because it's still the same bike and same physics. There's nothing wrong with some moderate BP adjustments on the street. It's not a speed thing, but a stability and smoothness thing.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Jim Moore

.........Everything is hunky-dory until that one day when they really need to make the bike turn, right now. The vague flopping doesn't work and they run off the road, or run into an opbject they could have missed. Don't be that person. Be the person who thinks, understands, and makes things happen.

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=109

"Can you steer your bike as quickly as you can a car? What does quick turning your bike have to do with your safety? How quick can it be done? Where can you practice it?

Let's take up question number one first. Can you steer your bike as fast as your car? If your answer is "no", my next questions are: What business do you have riding in traffic with cars that can out-maneuver you?, and, Ain't that dangerous?"

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by dfox

on public roads, you shouldn't be getting to the point where you have to start hanging off the bike. If you are, then you're riding too fast and need to take a look at your riding habits in public spaces.

But its fun, impresses girls (especially when I do go on a street ride wearing my track leathers) and allows me to stretch/keep muscle memory alive/whatever else.

Take your local street with 40mph limit that has some sweeper curves in it. Go through it at 40mph without any hangoff, note the lean angle. Now repeat hanging off. Note that you'll barely be tilting the bike, but you'll be hanging off to the side like a champ.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by emoyer

TOTW2 (either book or video) is something i have been wanting to check out. i do not have any idea how the throttle helps in low-traction situations.

Youtube has the video. ToTW will be overwhelming at first...so many things to remember, then you start thinking "Oh, this is my SR as well!". I remember the first time I was in an oh-**** situation on local twistie. I knew I was coming in too hot off the line...so instead of running straight into bushes/rocks I just looked, turned and kept the same thought playing in my head: look where you want to go, do not chop the throttle (both of which are from totw2). Went into the gravel by about a foot exiting the turn but rode it out, did not go down.

Honestly, do a track day with an instructor. It'll raise your confidence immensely, you'll learn new skills quick and you'll be able to practice them later on.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by emoyer

.........i do not have any idea how the throttle helps in low-traction situations.

"The standard rule of throttle control: once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on smoothly, evenly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn........ In a turn, the 40/60-percent weight loading that produces the best traction also puts the suspension in its most useable and workable range."

[emoyer]

Originally Posted by RedOctober

Honestly, do a track day with an instructor. It'll raise your confidence immensely, you'll learn new skills quick and you'll be able to practice them later on.

i have looked into getting some track training somehow. thunderbolt, which is used by both NESBA and CSS, is less than 3 hrs from me. probably wont be doing either of those anytime soon though, due to cost, etc.

[alex.s]

they say 0.1G puts it at 40/60. how much force does it take to accelerate 500lbs at 0.1g?

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by alex.s

they say 0.1G puts it at 40/60. how much force does it take to accelerate 500lbs at 0.1g?

Well, KC quotes 600cc+ in 4-6k RPM range. For 250...Basically it's a 1-2-3 WOT?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by RedOctober

Well, KC quotes 600cc+ in 4-6k RPM range. For 250...Basically it's a 1-2-3 WOT?

amount of power delivered at even WOT for 4-6k RPM range on 600cc bikes varies so much that saying that is about as accurate as holding up your hands and saying "this much"


and i think on the 250 its more like.... well just take out the 1-2-3 before WOT...

[csmith12]

alex, remember we are commenting on a post to a fairly new rider. I think the OP will want to be a bit smoother than 0 to WOT for general riding. Even if it is more realistic for a 250, it doesn't teach good throttle control going forward.

[csmith12]

Still eagerly awaiting Misti's comments here.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

they say 0.1G puts it at 40/60. how much force does it take to accelerate 500lbs at 0.1g?

Exactly 50 pounds of force.

F= ma = 500 x 0.1 = 50

That 0.1 g is an increment of 2.2 mph per each second for any bike.

[emoyer]

Originally Posted by csmith12

alex, remember we are commenting on a post to a fairly new rider. I think the OP will want to be a bit smoother than 0 to WOT for general riding. Even if it is more realistic for a 250, it doesn't teach good throttle control going forward.

yeah, i have no idea what is being discussed here. and i even have an engineering degree. (well, that was 27 years ago...) but i like to learn, so im grateful for anything...

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by emoyer

yeah, i have no idea what is being discussed here. and i even have an engineering degree. (well, that was 27 years ago...) but i like to learn, so im grateful for anything...

Don't worry, get a hold of the twist of the wrist, it'll provide some background ideas of what's being discussed. In the meantime, on the street, just ride your ride, don't try to hang off too much or do other things that take attention away from riding.
And remember, wet leaves = trouble even if you're upright.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by emoyer

first, my thanks to everyone for their input. i appreciate it.

as to the question quoted above, i guess i will try to briefly explain my discovery process.

as you all know, they teach CS in the MSF BRC, and though the speeds are slow in the course i did start to feel it work.

then when i got my bike & got out on the roads at higher speeds, of course it was even more evident. especially when i found myself entering a turn on a line that was a little wide, i could just push harder on the inside grip & it would tighten up. it was great.

(it wasnt like i was obsessing about it, but i was *consciously* pushing on the inside grip to initiate or tighten turns. i hope someday it will all just be subconscious.)

anyway, then i read somewhere (this was a couple month ago) about leaning the body more than the bike so that the bike doesnt have to lean as much and therefore the tires will have better contact, so i tried to start doing that. and i found that i was making turns *without* pushing on the inside grip, at least not in the same way. and honestly sometimes it really seemed like i wasnt doing it at all.

this was disconcerting because it seemed like what i had been learning to depend on wasnt working the same way anymore.

so then i stopped trying to lean more than the bike, because i didnt want it to screw up the reflexes i had been learning & because i figured it probably didnt matter as much on the street anyway.

the video (regardless of whether it was good or bad) gave me an understanding (rightly or wrongly) about what had been happening when i was trying to lean more than the bike -- if it is possible to turn a motorcycle simply by shifting weight, which the video seems to prove, then it would seem that when i was shifting my weight it was necessarily reducing the amount of input necessary at the grips.

not sure what to do with that, but thats what all you folks are helping me with. and yes i do tend to overthink things, but i just like to understand.

sorry for being longwinded. thanks.

Ok, thanks for the explanation

So here is my take on your experience.

First of all, when you learn countersteering it can feel very robotic. Push the right bar to go right, push the left to go left. For some it is very counterintuitive and so it takes a lot of effort to think it through and for a new rider this can take up a lot of concentration.

Then, you watched the video about leaning "more than the bike" and you began to shift your body weight into the turn and it began to feel as though you didn't need to "countersteer" the bike as much. This is fairly normal.

When newer riders learn how to countersteer the bike they tend to push DOWN on the left bar (for example) and they tend to resist the initial lean....so, when the bike starts to tip to the left, they unconsciously lean their body slightly to the right. Ever ride with a passenger that does this? Most of us at some point in time have been like bad passengers on our own bikes.

When you started to lean "more than the bike" you were probably unconsciously pressing more forward on the handlebar and were allowing the bike to fall into the turn with less resistance so then it felt as if you weren't counter steering at all.

What you could do is find a big parking lot or secluded area and work on your countersteering. Experiment with pressing DOWN on the bars vs FORWARD on the bars and with leaning AWAY from the turn as opposed to leaning WITH the turn and see how each of them feel.

You want to get into a habit of consciously COUNTERSTEERING the bike as opposed to just feeling like you are shifting your body weight or leaning into the turn because that is what is going to help you be more precise with your steering actions and will help you get your bike turned quickly.

I hope that clarifies the first part (the countersteering part) of your OP.

The second part was about leaning "more than the bike" and I want to just touch base on why it is important to at least lean with the bike, or lean "more than." how does this help with cornering and why?

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Still eagerly awaiting Misti's comments here.

I do my best, I have two little kids that don't let me sleep much I get on when I can!

Cheers

[Kokosun]

I know WOT = Wide Open Throttle, but what's OP?

[emoyer]

Originally Posted by Misti

...When you started to lean "more than the bike" you were probably unconsciously pressing more forward on the handlebar and were allowing the bike to fall into the turn with less resistance so then it felt as if you weren't counter steering at all.

What you could do is find a big parking lot or secluded area and work on your countersteering. Experiment with pressing DOWN on the bars vs FORWARD on the bars and with leaning AWAY from the turn as opposed to leaning WITH the turn and see how each of them feel.

You want to get into a habit of consciously COUNTERSTEERING the bike as opposed to just feeling like you are shifting your body weight or leaning into the turn because that is what is going to help you be more precise with your steering actions and will help you get your bike turned quickly.

I hope that clarifies the first part (the countersteering part) of your OP.

The second part was about leaning "more than the bike" and I want to just touch base on why it is important to at least lean with the bike, or lean "more than." how does this help with cornering and why?

Misti

thank you for taking the time to give your input, especially when you have a family to take care of.

you are probably right (and i think a couple others may have suggested something similar) that when i was putting in the extra body lean i was countersteering about the same as before but it didnt feel like it.

i think i usually push forward on the bar but sometimes as the bike leans it does feel a little like pushing down. maybe because i never tuck in, i always sit fairly upright. or maybe because i am being a "bad passenger" as you mention -- i know i still do that sometimes.

when i am taking a corner i think i usually know that i am pushing the bar, but after the fact i dont remember doing it. in july i took the 2nd MSF course (BRC2) and part of it was swerving around an obstacle at almost 20 mph. there is no way to do this without countersteering, and yet i dont remember thinking about it. i think i just did it. this is what i mean when i talk about building reflexes.

thanks for the suggestions about things to look for when i am just "playing" with the bike, which i do enjoy doing sometimes. and while i lust for a little more power (i rode an f4i a couple weeks ago and it was *awesome*) i know that the light weight & forgivingness of the ninjette are what i need at this point.

i think i know what you mean when you mention leaning "with the bike". there is something that feels good about just sitting in the seat and keeping your body in line with the bike as it goes thru the curve. maybe it is a little like a coordinated turn in an aircraft, where the ball stays in the middle and the weight vector is straight down thru your seat.

but as to your last question about how & why it helps with cornering, im not sure.

thanks again.

[csmith12]

Eric, no worries about Misti's last question. She always leaves you with something to think about going forward. That is her style.

[Malicious Logic]

Originally Posted by Kokosun

I know WOT = Wide Open Throttle, but what's OP?

Opening Post/Poster...

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Subscribed. I like reading Misti's riding skills advice.

I'm In. Misti's posts make me feel like I have a private, Masters level, riding instructor.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by emoyer

thank you for taking the time to give your input, especially when you have a family to take care of.

you are probably right (and i think a couple others may have suggested something similar) that when i was putting in the extra body lean i was countersteering about the same as before but it didnt feel like it.

i think i usually push forward on the bar but sometimes as the bike leans it does feel a little like pushing down. maybe because i never tuck in, i always sit fairly upright. or maybe because i am being a "bad passenger" as you mention -- i know i still do that sometimes.

when i am taking a corner i think i usually know that i am pushing the bar, but after the fact i dont remember doing it. in july i took the 2nd MSF course (BRC2) and part of it was swerving around an obstacle at almost 20 mph. there is no way to do this without countersteering, and yet i dont remember thinking about it. i think i just did it. this is what i mean when i talk about building reflexes.

thanks for the suggestions about things to look for when i am just "playing" with the bike, which i do enjoy doing sometimes. and while i lust for a little more power (i rode an f4i a couple weeks ago and it was *awesome*) i know that the light weight & forgivingness of the ninjette are what i need at this point.

i think i know what you mean when you mention leaning "with the bike". there is something that feels good about just sitting in the seat and keeping your body in line with the bike as it goes thru the curve. maybe it is a little like a coordinated turn in an aircraft, where the ball stays in the middle and the weight vector is straight down thru your seat.

but as to your last question about how & why it helps with cornering, im not sure.

thanks again.

No problem and I'm really glad that this has helped. I hope you are able to play around with countersteering and leaning with the bike and getting used to how the bike responds the best so you ride the safest way possible.

You mention that sometimes you press forward on the bar but then other times you feel like you are pressing down. Noticing what you are doing on the bike is the first step to making improvements and changes.

Which way feels better for you? What is the difference in your steering when you press forward on the bar as opposed to down?

Originally Posted by JeffM

I'm In. Misti's posts make me feel like I have a private, Masters level, riding instructor.

Yay Glad to be of some assistance!