Low end power??

gregoryl · September 22nd, 2014, 05:22 AM

So i just did the 6000 mile valve adjustment and the intake was at .002 and the exhaust was at .003. we changes the intake to .004 and the exhaust to .005 (the low end of spec) and it still is making a little excess slapping/ clicking noise. Also, the bike putts in 1st, 2nd gear up until about 7000 rmps (the bike will start to pull but let up then will almost shoot you a little then putt again? i forgot to mark where the throttle chord was tightened at, but we got it to where its running the best, but its not wehre it used to be (when we put it to about where it was, this bogging is 10X worse? PLEASE HELP BROTHERS, this is my daily driver (no car)>? Thanks, Luke

jkv45 · September 22nd, 2014, 05:43 AM

Sounds like it needs some carb work or adjustments.

Is the air filter clean and the snorkel clear? How old is the gas?

First thing I would do is to make sure the gas is good before doing much else.

gregoryl · September 22nd, 2014, 06:08 AM

Gas is brand new. Cleaned the carbs when we had them off. Has a brand new K&N air filter, even tried taking it out and putting the stock one back in, and it ran worse, so went back to K&N (the one in the airbox). Would shimming the needles in the carbs help (I dont know what this would do?) or do you think the carb needs jetted? Thanks, Luke

jkv45 · September 22nd, 2014, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregoryl

Gas is brand new. Cleaned the carbs when we had them off. Has a brand new K&N air filter, even tried taking it out and putting the stock one back in, and it ran worse, so went back to K&N (the one in the airbox). Would shimming the needles in the carbs help (I dont know what this would do?) or do you think the carb needs jetted? Thanks, Luke

Did you remove the caps over the idle mixture screws and set them at 2 1/2 turns out? Is the hot idle set to 1300?

Did you oil the K&N?

Shimming will help, but it should run reasonably well without.

gregoryl · September 22nd, 2014, 08:32 AM

I did not adjust the idle screws. The K&N came oiled. the bike seems to run decent about 6K RPM, but maybe a slight bog when holding steady RPM? Im frustrated as can be, we adjusted valves twice, cleaned carbs & jets inside and out w carb cleaner. It looks like there was an aftermarket needle in there bc it is stainless steal color? do you think shimming the needle would fix the low end bog? Thanks, Luke

flitecontrol · September 22nd, 2014, 08:49 AM

Spray carb cleaner doesn't do a good job of cleaning a dirty carb. It simply isn't aggressive enough to cut through heavy buildup.

Soak the metal parts only in Berryman's Chem Dip for 24-48 hours, rinse with water, and blow out the jets and every opening in the carb body with high pressure compressed air. If you have access to a sonic cleaner, it will get the carb clean the first time. I've seen carbs that needed as many as five extended soaks in Chem Dip to get completely clean.

gregoryl · September 22nd, 2014, 08:57 AM

The carb jets were fine looking, see through all holes and did use high pressure to blow through all jets and didnt seem dirty at all. the bike only has 6000 miles. I ran a whole tank of seafoam through before i cleaned them. not thinking its a dirty carb issue, i just think the mixture might not be right? Which a dirty carb could cause, but they seemed so clean, and when i ran carb cleaner and compressed air through everything, it passed through with ease? The bike didnt bog before i cleaned them and did the valve adjustment? and it was bogging to point where i couldn't get going without bike about to die, then we adjusted the throttle cord and it got better, but not quite there yet?

jkv45 · September 22nd, 2014, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregoryl

I did not adjust the idle screws. The K&N came oiled. the bike seems to run decent about 6K RPM, but maybe a slight bog when holding steady RPM? Im frustrated as can be, we adjusted valves twice, cleaned carbs & jets inside and out w carb cleaner. It looks like there was an aftermarket needle in there bc it is stainless steal color? do you think shimming the needle would fix the low end bog? Thanks, Luke

That is most likely part of the problem then. There are metal caps over the screws that need to be removed with the carbs off the bike. Another point would be that if you didn't remove the caps you didn't remove the adjustment screws and clean the idle mixture passages - which should be done when cleaning the carb. There are o-rings on the idle mixture screws that can deteriorate and cause problems also. That's where I would look.

Shimming will help it run better in the mid-throttle range, but I think there's an issue elsewhere that needs to be corrected to get it running properly.

Are you running 87 octane ethanol-free gas?

You should be using the idle speed adjuster on the left side to adjust the idle speed to 1300. Adjusting the slack in the throttle cable isn't the correct way to adjust the idle speed.

I might also drain the floatbowls just to take a look at what comes out.

The valve adjustment could be off as well.

Chances are you will need to remove the carbs again and go through them very carefully. Read through this section first - http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Intake

Plan on syncing the carbs when you get them back on.

gregoryl · September 22nd, 2014, 01:29 PM

I bet it might be that idle mixture. We adjusted valves, then took off adjusted again a little tighter bc we thought it was a little to loose. so its at intake .004 and exhaust .005 which is lowest end of spec. I will do the idle mixture/clean carbs tonight and let you know what happens. What does adjusting the throttle cable do? and how should i adjust it? and what i meant was that before i adjusted that cable, i knew that the idle as adjusted on left little black knob, but when i put bike in first and went to hit the gas, it wanted to die, then all a sudden would catch and shoot me like a sling shot then back down then back up till hit 6K rpm then ran fine? we did sink the carbs after both valve adjustments and cleaning carbs. I will clean those idles then sink carbs. Anything else anyone can think of with this new info?

gregoryl · September 22nd, 2014, 01:30 PM

im running 89 for past 12 months (since i have had it)

jkv45 · September 22nd, 2014, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregoryl

im running 89 for past 12 months (since i have had it)

Without ethanol?

No need to run anything higher than regular 87 unless you need to in order to get away from ethanol. You make the most power with ethanol-free 87 in a stock ex engine.

gregoryl · October 6th, 2014, 10:29 AM

So i tested the Petcock, and it is not leaking. I adjusted the valves to the low end of spec. intake .004 and exhaust .005 last night. I changed the oil, smelled a little gas in the oil, and the oil was dark. When i filled back up wtih oil, it was honey color and had lots of little bubbles in it in the sight glass

ut oh. removed the idle mixture screws on the carbs, and cleaned the carbs well. but when i fired the bike up and went to hit the throttle, the bike dies like its getting to much gas. What are the recommended Pilot Screw adjustments. I have them at 2 turns from close right now. I smell a strong odor of gas coming from the air box as well. Bike ran fine 3 weeks ago. Did valve adjustment, cleaned carbs, changed to KN air filter, not pods just the one in airbox, put inline fuel filter in, and this is where im at. Concerend that maybe a head gasket is blown? or any other ideas?

Hero Danny · October 6th, 2014, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkv45

Plan on syncing the carbs when you get them back on.

That's what I was thinking.

sh123469 · November 29th, 2014, 10:49 PM

Running it up at WOT or almost there...let off just a little and it momentarily seems to pull much harder...then normal again is usually slightly lean mixture.

Have you done any exhaust or intake mods that would increase flow through the engine? If so, you'll probably need to rejet. The way they jet so lean these days, you almost need to rejet a brand new bike.

Good luck with it...and there's really not much low end power to get anyway but I understand what you're saying.

Steve

csmith12 · November 29th, 2014, 11:19 PM

Welcome Steve!

sh123469 · November 30th, 2014, 09:15 PM

Hi Everyone.

Thanks for the welcome, Chris.

Just thought I'd drop in since I've read that one so many times in so many different places and it sounds just as he described it.

That is, of course, assuming that the carbs are working completely properly with all jets clean, clear and the float levels correct.

j98sprint · December 1st, 2014, 09:32 AM

I was also going to mention float height. Very important.

Those 2 pilot screws should be set 2.5 turns out from lightly seated. And a teeny weenie washer or 2 under the needles should help.

With those 2 minor mods, correct float height and a carb sync your 250 should run sweet.

j98sprint

September 22nd, 2014, 05:22 AM	#1
gregoryl ninjette.org member Name: Luke Location: Athens Ohio Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja EX250 Posts: 19	Low end power?? So i just did the 6000 mile valve adjustment and the intake was at .002 and the exhaust was at .003. we changes the intake to .004 and the exhaust to .005 (the low end of spec) and it still is making a little excess slapping/ clicking noise. Also, the bike putts in 1st, 2nd gear up until about 7000 rmps (the bike will start to pull but let up then will almost shoot you a little then putt again? i forgot to mark where the throttle chord was tightened at, but we got it to where its running the best, but its not wehre it used to be (when we put it to about where it was, this bogging is 10X worse? PLEASE HELP BROTHERS, this is my daily driver (no car)>? Thanks, Luke

November 29th, 2014, 11:19 PM	#15
csmith12 The Corner Whisperer Name: Chris (aka Reactor) Location: Northern KY Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much. MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13	Welcome Steve! __________________________________________________ Goal: Shake A Million Hands \| Look through the corners \| Track Day Prep \| Closest track? \| The Mid-Ohio School

December 1st, 2014, 09:32 AM	#17
j98sprint ninjette.org member Name: John Location: Crossville, Tn. Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): '02 Ninja 250, '98 Triumph Sprint 900, '69 H-D Sportster XLCH 900 Posts: 80	Float height I was also going to mention float height. Very important. Those 2 pilot screws should be set 2.5 turns out from lightly seated. And a teeny weenie washer or 2 under the needles should help. With those 2 minor mods, correct float height and a carb sync your 250 should run sweet. j98sprint

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September 22nd, 2014, 05:43 AM	#2
jkv45 Rev Limiter Name: Jay Location: WI Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes Posts: A lot. MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16	Sounds like it needs some carb work or adjustments. Is the air filter clean and the snorkel clear? How old is the gas? First thing I would do is to make sure the gas is good before doing much else.

September 22nd, 2014, 06:08 AM	#3
gregoryl ninjette.org member Name: Luke Location: Athens Ohio Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja EX250 Posts: 19	Gas is brand new. Cleaned the carbs when we had them off. Has a brand new K&N air filter, even tried taking it out and putting the stock one back in, and it ran worse, so went back to K&N (the one in the airbox). Would shimming the needles in the carbs help (I dont know what this would do?) or do you think the carb needs jetted? Thanks, Luke

September 22nd, 2014, 08:32 AM	#5
gregoryl ninjette.org member Name: Luke Location: Athens Ohio Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja EX250 Posts: 19	I did not adjust the idle screws. The K&N came oiled. the bike seems to run decent about 6K RPM, but maybe a slight bog when holding steady RPM? Im frustrated as can be, we adjusted valves twice, cleaned carbs & jets inside and out w carb cleaner. It looks like there was an aftermarket needle in there bc it is stainless steal color? do you think shimming the needle would fix the low end bog? Thanks, Luke

September 22nd, 2014, 08:49 AM	#6
flitecontrol ninjette.org guru Name: Lee Location: Monroe, LA Join Date: Feb 2014 Motorcycle(s): Rebel 250s, Ninja 250s VN750s (currently nine total) Posts: 465	Spray carb cleaner doesn't do a good job of cleaning a dirty carb. It simply isn't aggressive enough to cut through heavy buildup. Soak the metal parts only in Berryman's Chem Dip for 24-48 hours, rinse with water, and blow out the jets and every opening in the carb body with high pressure compressed air. If you have access to a sonic cleaner, it will get the carb clean the first time. I've seen carbs that needed as many as five extended soaks in Chem Dip to get completely clean.

September 22nd, 2014, 08:57 AM	#7
gregoryl ninjette.org member Name: Luke Location: Athens Ohio Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja EX250 Posts: 19	The carb jets were fine looking, see through all holes and did use high pressure to blow through all jets and didnt seem dirty at all. the bike only has 6000 miles. I ran a whole tank of seafoam through before i cleaned them. not thinking its a dirty carb issue, i just think the mixture might not be right? Which a dirty carb could cause, but they seemed so clean, and when i ran carb cleaner and compressed air through everything, it passed through with ease? The bike didnt bog before i cleaned them and did the valve adjustment? and it was bogging to point where i couldn't get going without bike about to die, then we adjusted the throttle cord and it got better, but not quite there yet?

September 22nd, 2014, 01:29 PM	#9
gregoryl ninjette.org member Name: Luke Location: Athens Ohio Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja EX250 Posts: 19	I bet it might be that idle mixture. We adjusted valves, then took off adjusted again a little tighter bc we thought it was a little to loose. so its at intake .004 and exhaust .005 which is lowest end of spec. I will do the idle mixture/clean carbs tonight and let you know what happens. What does adjusting the throttle cable do? and how should i adjust it? and what i meant was that before i adjusted that cable, i knew that the idle as adjusted on left little black knob, but when i put bike in first and went to hit the gas, it wanted to die, then all a sudden would catch and shoot me like a sling shot then back down then back up till hit 6K rpm then ran fine? we did sink the carbs after both valve adjustments and cleaning carbs. I will clean those idles then sink carbs. Anything else anyone can think of with this new info?

September 22nd, 2014, 01:30 PM	#10
gregoryl ninjette.org member Name: Luke Location: Athens Ohio Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja EX250 Posts: 19	im running 89 for past 12 months (since i have had it)

October 6th, 2014, 10:29 AM	#12
gregoryl ninjette.org member Name: Luke Location: Athens Ohio Join Date: Aug 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja EX250 Posts: 19	So i tested the Petcock, and it is not leaking. I adjusted the valves to the low end of spec. intake .004 and exhaust .005 last night. I changed the oil, smelled a little gas in the oil, and the oil was dark. When i filled back up wtih oil, it was honey color and had lots of little bubbles in it in the sight glass ut oh. removed the idle mixture screws on the carbs, and cleaned the carbs well. but when i fired the bike up and went to hit the throttle, the bike dies like its getting to much gas. What are the recommended Pilot Screw adjustments. I have them at 2 turns from close right now. I smell a strong odor of gas coming from the air box as well. Bike ran fine 3 weeks ago. Did valve adjustment, cleaned carbs, changed to KN air filter, not pods just the one in airbox, put inline fuel filter in, and this is where im at. Concerend that maybe a head gasket is blown? or any other ideas?

November 29th, 2014, 10:49 PM	#14
sh123469 ninjette.org member Name: Steve Location: Spartanburg, SC Join Date: Nov 2014 Motorcycle(s): EX250, Suzuki Savage, 76 Goldwing restoration project, 71 CB350, 73 Yamaha GT1, Posts: 73	Running it up at WOT or almost there...let off just a little and it momentarily seems to pull much harder...then normal again is usually slightly lean mixture. Have you done any exhaust or intake mods that would increase flow through the engine? If so, you'll probably need to rejet. The way they jet so lean these days, you almost need to rejet a brand new bike. Good luck with it...and there's really not much low end power to get anyway but I understand what you're saying. Steve

November 30th, 2014, 09:15 PM	#16
sh123469 ninjette.org member Name: Steve Location: Spartanburg, SC Join Date: Nov 2014 Motorcycle(s): EX250, Suzuki Savage, 76 Goldwing restoration project, 71 CB350, 73 Yamaha GT1, Posts: 73	Hi Everyone. Thanks for the welcome, Chris. Just thought I'd drop in since I've read that one so many times in so many different places and it sounds just as he described it. That is, of course, assuming that the carbs are working completely properly with all jets clean, clear and the float levels correct.