Reality check/perspective on track day crashes

[ally99]

Only vote in this poll if you have ridden on a track, please!

I'm curious. Crashes seem to be abundant at the track. It seems like everyone has crash stories. How common is it really to crash at the track? If you have never wrecked, how many track days have you experienced?

Edit: Guess it's only fair that I fess up. Yes, I have low-sided...damn rumble strips. I am about to ride my 2nd track this weekend. Hope to NOT make it 2 for 2!

[ally99]

Those of you who have voted, how many track experiences have you all had?

[sharky nrk]

I voted yes, I have a 20% crash rate by day, and 6.6% by session. Sounds bad when I put it on paper lol.

[Kevin2109]

I crash everywhere but the track

[SPG]

Lets see, last year I did 12 days with CSS, 7 race weekends (14 days), probably 10 track days so 36 days and had 2 crashes.

#1, during practice, dry tires, wet track, and quick-turning when I shouldn't. Lost the front.

#2, track day, improper tire pressure (too high), a worn tire, and a bumpy turn. Front chattered then let go.

This season, 3 race weekends (6 days, two bikes, five classes), probably 4 trackdays, and 3 crashes.

#3, improper tire pressure (too high), during practice, in the rain. Lost the front.

#4, In a race, was passing a slower rider who changed lines, so I changed my line to pass on the outside. This set me on a very bad line for the next DR corner and I tried to make it work. Lost the front when it left the track and hit the dirt.

#5, In a race, following just to the rear and inside of another rider who was running out of track on the outside of the corner, he slowed and tightened his line and I hit him.

So total so far is probably 46 days and 5 crashes.

Good gear has made it relatively injury free so far. Still bummed about #5 though.

-Sean

[pjed]

I've crashed once in 5 years of doing track days. It was in a complete downpour and I was one of two knuckleheads still riding on the track. If I crash anywhere, I want it to be at the track...the ambulance was there right away.

[adouglas]

Having not done a track day yet, I am well aware that my perspective is skewed. As I read more and more, it seems to me that crashing at track days is just part of the game.

Naturally this concerns me somewhat. For one thing, I'm turning 55 in a week or so and I'm not as durable as I once was. For another, I really don't want to trash my bike.

So, the question:

Why do people crash at track days? Is it that they're unprepared and get bitten -- they're being careful but never see it coming? Or is it that they're pushing too hard... they let the red mist take over and stop thinking clearly?

I'm old enough and cautious enough that I doubt I'll let the adrenaline get the better of me. I mean... I've been riding since 1987 and only laid a bike down once, at low speed, in a boneheaded newbie mistake a week after I got my license. I'm confident that I have good self-control on a motorcycle and I'm long past the age where I need to prove anything to anyone.

But hitting the track is by definition venturing into uncharted territory. Things might happen that I've never experienced before... like an imminent high side, for example. I've had tiny chirps of the rear before, but nothing approaching dangerous.

I guess I'm trying to say that you can't tell when the limit is approaching until you've actually experienced it... and by then it might be too late.

My goal is to go fast enough to get the bike (and myself) working in a way I can't on the street, not to become Marc Marquez. I'm a firm believer in riding at 75% of your ability.

I figure that the beginner group is a very safe environment and will probably feel much the same as what I do every time I ride. That was more or less the case when I did track days in cars. I'm not worried about that first day. It's when you start moving up that things get interesting.

Can anyone lend insight on this? Do people get through a whole string of track days completely unscathed, or is it just a rite of passage... "there are two kinds of track day riders... those who have crashed, and those who will crash...."

[rojoracing53]

I've never crashed at a track day.

[rojoracing53]

Alex needs to implement an auto save your ****ing text as you type so when my phone browser randomly reboots I don't loose what I was typing. Sorry I had more in depth response but now I'm more like **** it.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Can anyone lend insight on this? Do people get through a whole string of track days completely unscathed, or is it just a rite of passage... "there are two kinds of track day riders... those who have crashed, and those who will crash...."

My first 2 years of track was crash free, 22 track days & 6 races and that saying that there are "those who have crashed and those who will" is total BS. Your human, chances are, in time you will make a mistake that will lead to a crash, same with cars, trucks, walking....

Originally Posted by adouglas

I'm old enough and cautious enough that I doubt I'll let the adrenaline get the better of me.

I thought the same thing, it was the cause of my first crash. I had more confidence than I had skill.

[Alex]

There's no requirement to crash. But it's not a terribly rare occurrence either. Stats from a local provider are consistently at 6% long-term for each track day. Some days there will be none of course, while other days it seems like the red flags never stop. Staying within your comfort zone and not pushing your limits will certainly improve the odds to a point, though you're also on track to get closer to those limits than you'd attempt on the street. It also doesn't prevent someone else's crash or poor maintenance from potentially causing others to put their bike on the ground.

[Galaxieman]

Trackdays are actually significanly safer than being on the street. Not letting your adrenaline get the better of you will go a LONG way to keeping a bike up. I've had a couple of unscheduled get-offs on the street due to overconfidence/under-performance, or that deer thing..., but have never had anything seriously unsettling happen at the track, much less crashed.

The guys who 'are going to crash' at the track can usually be spotted from trackside. To wit, I saw a Triumph 675 at a trackday I attended back on the mainland, who I knew was going to be in serious danger of asphalt surfing. I wrote the whole day up on my blog (with associated pictures) here. Distilled version: I saw that he was consistently getting in over his head on one of the blind corners because he'd come blazing over the hill and appear to forget that he needed to turn right. Repeatedly. Eventuality was that he binned the bike, thankfully in a non-self-flaggelating manner. Follow the control riders for the sighting laps, and then just take your time getting to know the track before starting to work up any real speed.

A couple of hints I've taken to heart from my personal MC gurus:

"Sneak up on fast" - No reason to go balls-out right out the gate (unless you're racing), as there's no payoff. Which leads to...

"You can't 'win' a trackday" - There are approximately ZERO bragging rights for binning your sh!t at the track because you blew a corner.

All that said, I acquired my ninjette specifically so it would force me to learn to carry corner speed in order to put in good lap times. The 250/300 Ninja is BEYOND stellar when it comes to being a skills-building track weapon. Every trackday and racing organization I've had the chance to ride/race with has had a bunch of great guys/girls as control riders who were all very helpful with new track junkies. And yes, if you go, you will become a junkie. It's addictive.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I thought the same thing, it was the cause of my first crash. I had more confidence than I had skill.

I'd put that in the "bitten" statement from the original post. You thought you were being careful and never saw it coming. Correct?

That's what worries me a little. I'm not the kind of guy who goes into dog-and-rabbit mode when someone blows by him... the red mist doesn't get to me.

What I am thinking a lot about is venturing into places where I've never been... greater lean angles, harder braking, etc. etc. This is a game where there are real consequences if you screw up.

I'm clear in my mind what I have to do... but there is no substitute for real experience, as any kid who's ever skinned a knee can tell you.

[adouglas]

Excellent post, galaxieman.

Wish I could have kept my 250 for track use. Oh, well...

[csmith12]

Why do riders crash at track days?

Riding beyond skill level: Easy enough to understand.

Improper/incompatible setup: When the rider asks the bike to do something it's not capable of doing.
Example: Riding over the traction level of the tires on a wet track
Example 2: I needed to lean over farther but the pegs scraped (can lift a wheel cause crash)
Example 3: Putting tire warmers on street tires on a day that is 107 degrees. Yea... they are gunna overheat if the rider pushes them hard enough

Hardware failure: Kinda rare
Example: The engine just blew and leaked oil on my rear tire
Example 2: Chain breaking

Other rider's errors: Should be rare but isn't
Example: The guy just ran into me
Example 2: The other guy stuffed me

Finding your 75% limit is actually pretty easy but VERY hard to explain. The hard limit to find is your 100%. A track day is not the time to find this limit. That "sneak up on fast" quote is awesome but I experienced the opposite "fast sneaked up on me". As I got faster, it felt as if I was going slower.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I'd put that in the "bitten" statement from the original post. You thought you were being careful and never saw it coming. Correct?

I wouldn't say I didn't see it coming because I did. I committed to the turn instead of just standing it up and running off like I should have done. (Hindsight ) I knew I was going into the corner hot (had mild SR's), I believed I could push the bike through, I WAS WRONG, it was a choice.

[Galaxieman]

Looking at the bike listing on your profile snippet, that GSXR should be very well sorted right out of the box. Assuming you've got decent rubber, it's going to be WAY beyond your capacity as a rider to exceed the limits of that bike if you don't just barrel in headlong. For the trackday I mentioned previously, I was there to hang out with some friends and be there for one's first trackday. She mentioned that it felt like she was leaned waaaay over and was hanging way off... which you can see from the pictures that she wasn't. She was just fine with that, as she wasn't out to prove anything. She's a RiderCoach, and was finally getting to the track after saying she was going to go for years. She wanted to go before she turned [age redacted], but couldn't make it... She learned a lot about her personal comfort zone, didn't crash, and had a great time.

[rc racer]

I have lost count on the dozens upon dozens of track days I have been to but only crashed during one of them. That crash fell into the red-mist category. I was riding a cbr600f4 and chasing my friend on a gsxr600. I ignored how much my pegs where grinding into the asphalt (stock low rearsets) and finally un loaded my rear tire enough to low slide. I knew it was happening, I knew what was possible but I ignored the warnings.

Bike and me slid for a while. I slid gracefully to a stop my bike caught something on the ground and tumbled once. I was un scathed but the bike had many scratches on both sides and dents in the tank. Luckily none of the controls broke off so I continued enjoying more sessions later in the day with a dirty, scrapped up but functional bike.

As long as you ride your own ride and only go as fast as you are comfortable with you'll be fine. And if you happen to crash chances are much better than on the street you will simply slide to a stop, get up and walk away. as long as you don't tumble or run into anything.

[Boosted139]

It's not that crashing is "part of the game". You just have to accept that fact it is a possibility (whether its you getting in over your head, mechanical failure or god forbid someone other bonzo taking you out).

Overall though, track days are super safe and you are your own limiting factor. You prevent yourself from crashing 99.99% of the time.

[Alex]

/merged with a relevant poll thread

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by adouglas

...I'm turning 55 in a week or so and I'm not as durable as I once was. For another, I really don't want to trash my bike.

You're 55, ride a gixxer 750 and NEVER been to a track??? WTF are you waiting for??? Life is too short! LOL. From one old dude to another, just go for it and ride at your "75%" pace (which is really more like 50% of the bikes capability, no offense). Before you know it, you'll be pushing a REAL 75% and then spend hours contemplating the justification to purchase a dedicated trackbike! Over the years, i've met ALOT of 50+ guys that have a very fast, smooth, and confident ridign style, that have long since forgotten about the anxieties that may have kept them from the track to begin with.

[tooblekain]

2008: ~3 crashes
2009: ~3 crashes
2010: 1 crashes
2011: 1 crash (out for a while) (April 21)
2012: 0 crashes (mostly due to recovering from crash the previous year)
2013: 1 (September)
2014: 1 (02/01/14)

[CC Cowboy]

10 years at the track, never crashed in a race (although I was run for the track at Pocono but didn't go down), crashed numerous times in practice, crashed once back then at a trackday when a Formula Vee puked a tailpipe in front of me (Loudon coming down the hill). Recently had a few trackdays and never crashed, I'm not as fast as I was (yea, I can't believe either).

[backinthesaddleagain]

I have been at some warm days where I hardly remember a red flag, and at cold days where no one seems to notice that "gee everyone who is trying to go too fast too soon today is falling, but I won't" mentality, and then comes another red flag.

The best advice I have heard when moving up a group is "just do exactly what you did in the group you just moved up from".

[tnr4]

Hi adouglas,

I just started track days last season with the exact same mindset as you, and I didn't lose it. Each day and session, I just focused on something else to improve, but never tried to chase someone down or go fast. My favorite part of the track is corner speed, so I spent most of my energy learning lines and working with a CR on BP. It's been a total blast and can't wait for this season.

That said: my first full day was on my old 300, which really can't break traction when you open the throttle. I then did several sessions over a couple days on an R6 and an R1, and those required more concentration on telling the bike what to do with my right hand; this is what your 750 will be like. So yeah, bummer you sold the 250, cuz it's nice to be able to basically just hold open the throttle and concentrate on riding for a while.

You're gonna' have soooo much fun.

[oblivion007]

I got four track days going on 5 this weekend I believe. Never gone down but I have gone off the track.

[KawiKid860]

I've never crashed on the track but I've only had one track day so far.

[Klondike1020]

I snuck out on a track late one night with a Goped and made a loop, Half way around the police took off around the track and I had to hide behind a barrier but I finished my lap and went back to the party lol


I did not crash... however on the down hill stretch the go ped got a little wobble as it started gaining mega speed... I was probably pushing 37mph haha

[jkv45]

As far as crashing by yourself goes, I think a lot of it depends on your attitude.

Are you pushing to go as fast as you can? Or are you satisfied riding at 75% or whatever feels controllable?

If you are trying to keep up with anyone that passes you chances are you will step over the line.

If you set a comfortable pace, and stick to it, you can go a long time without crashing unless you encounter something or someone that unexpectedly pushes you over the edge.

That's for Trackdays.

If you are racing I'd expect you are pushing it. I've never done a trackday, but raced for many years, and stepped over the line numerous times. A couple of the crashes were partially avoidable and involved lack of sleep, dehydration, and one instance where a full tank of propane was released in the closed van we were sleeping in at the track. Needless to say I wasn't up to par on-track the next day, and it rained, so I promptly crashed. Fun stuff!

[JBinSD]

Originally Posted by tooblekain

2008: ~3 crashes
2009: ~3 crashes
2010: 1 crashes
2011: 1 crash (out for a while) (April 21)
2012: 0 crashes (mostly due to recovering from crash the previous year)
2013: 1 (September)
2014: 1 (02/08/14)

Hey Matt, don't crash yourself out before you get there. . . I think ya mighta meant January. . . When are we gonna resurrect that bike yours?

[Aodrn]

Last season was my first track season. I spent the entire season pushing over my head and finally ended the season by cracking my helmet. This season I am gonna sneak up on fast.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by iZapp

From one old dude to another, just go for it and ride at your "75%" pace (which is really more like 50% of the bikes capability, no offense).

Truth be told, my 75% is probably closer to 25% of the bike's capability. Maybe even 10% of what the bike can do.

This bike breaks laws before it hits 6000 rpm.

I feel like I'm reasonably quick. I know I am not. Not really.

I predict mid-pack pace.

[sprinter]

As far as common causes for crashes at track days, I'd say the mental list I've compiled over the past 6 years of operating a track day company, and several years of riding at track days before that, is pretty short. In general there are two "main" causes of crashes at track days: 1) Braking Errors, 2) Tires. The other types of crashes, due to contact between riders, mechanical issues, tank-slappers, as well as throttle-induced crashes are much more rare.

Braking Errors can be broken down into two main types:
1) Abrupt use of the brakes
2) Panic and/or target fixation on the grass, usually when getting into a turn too hot, and braking in the grass/dirt.

Both of those usually have a root cause of having poor visual techniques, mainly not looking far enough ahead to judge where you're at on the track, staring at the track right in front of you or at the rear tire of the bike in front of you. It often results in last-second decision making by a rider who has not had the experience to make a correct quick decision, ending up too hot and/or on a poor line entering a turn, a panic stab at the brakes, and a lowside. The other frequent contributor is holding onto the bars too tight, "fighting" against the bike turning and having it run wide, then panic and staring into the grass, and following your line of sight right into it, and then a panic stab at the brakes and going down in the grass.

The issue with Tires should be self-evident, yet it's the hardest thing to being into the brain of a new track rider who thinks his flat-spotted 5-year-old street tires will be "just fine" for the track day. The track puts demands on your tires, even at the Novice level, well beyond what any type of normal street riding would, even "sport" riding. The biggest issue is margin for error. A sticky track tire gives a much wider margin for error. Ironically, the experienced/advanced track day rider is the one who can get away with running on crappy tires, because they have learned to perceive the traction feedback from the tires and to deal with slides without panic. The new rider who gets in a little hot into a turn, grabs more front brake while turning because the alternative is going off the track, and they lock it up and lowside because their front tire can't handle it. If they had a race tire on the front, they'd have a much better chance of making it. The other issue related to tires is not having an accurate sense of the track conditions/traction, usually related to it being cold and/or wet. I can't count how many riders have come into the pits on the crash truck with a banged up bike saying "I don't know what happened, I just starting turning into the corner and BAM I was on my side!". Guess what, I know what happend, you have crappy tires on your bike and you either overloaded the front by turning hard and/or braking and you lowsided. With a sticky tire on there, you might have went right through the turn without so much as a wiggle from the bike. So my recommendation to anyone considering going to the track is always "Run the best tires you can!".

The other piece of advice is "Get your suspension set up as good as possible!". With good tires and good suspension, you're way ahead of the game and your odds of crashing will be much lower as a novice. Again, ironically it's the experienced rider who can get away with riding on crappy suspension, the newbie is at a higher risk of making a mistake if his bike is diving on the brakes and wallowing in the turns.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I predict mid-pack pace.

lol, don't worry about any of that. Speed means nothing. There's ALWAYS going to be some 12 year old kid who blows you away without raising his heartbeat or some old geezer who has to take a smoke break between sessions but can blow your doors off with 2 fingers on the bars while turned around backwards with his elbow on the deck. Worry about being the most improved from your first lap in the morning to your last lap of the day when all you want is another last lap and nothing could take the stupid grin off your face.

Sure, you have to be careful of the red mist and tunnel vision. Yes, you need to be careful and know when you've hit your limit. But have some fun and make the experience worth the cost. Turn your brain off and enjoy living at 100 mph. Smell the exhaust, get your head off the bike and fly over the pavement. You're on a track for goodness sake. There's going to be racing pros in the higher levels and pros as control riders. Learn from them, drool over their bikes, watch their track sessions from the infield, ask for a tow, etc etc. Also, there's no cops. Be the newb one time on the straights and crank it open. It's not often you can wind out more than one gear on a 750.

You're thinking too much now and trying to analyze too much. Just go. Have fun. Ride motorcycle. Learn a buttload. Get some cool pictures to show off your first track day. Grin like a fool. I know that's what I did the first time. Heck, my first thought when I left the pits on my first lap was, "ZOMGBBQWTFLOLOMG!!! I'M ON A TRACK!!!!!" I always leave the track with a new respect for my bike and new definition of the word 'fast'. At this point, I look fast compared to average street riders, but boy do I feel slow because I know what real 'fast' looks like.


I guess what I'm saying is, you can think and plan and analyze all you want now. But it's a totally different ball game when you're actually able to RIDE at the track. Enjoy it, don't let your brain get in the way.

[Spot]

My first post! I've crashed three times, I've ran off track like 10 times. I have around 60 different days on a track racing/trackday/training.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I always leave the track with a new respect for my bike and new definition of the word 'fast'. At this point, I look fast compared to average street riders, but boy do I feel slow because I know what real 'fast' looks like.

irk!!!! I thought I was finally getting faster when I could dip into the 1:30's at Mid-Ohio. Then what happens????...... Yea, damn Graves team posts upper 1:20's on a 600 no less. Fast gets redefined every damn year.

[csmith12]

Welcome Johnny!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

This bike breaks laws before it hits 6000 rpm

Along with chone's "go ahead, let go.... have fun" post. The only other thing this thread is missing is;

When going to the track, do your best to leave the street rider in you at home, it's the only thing your "supposed" to forget.

[choneofakind]

^^truth. That really held me back. On street I'm always paranoid about watching for gravel/animals/traffic/not getting too close to lines/whatever. Trust the track and just ride. It's an experience you'll not forget once you let go of the street rider and have some fun.

Brakes are wonderful. Even though everyone always thinks of the throttle when they think of the bike's limits, you never really get to explore the capabilities of your brakes before turns. Have some fun with that. I think you'd impress yourself with how fantastic your brakes are.

[tooblekain]

Originally Posted by JBinSD

[/B]

Hey Matt, don't crash yourself out before you get there. . . I think ya mighta meant January. . . When are we gonna resurrect that bike yours?

LOL...good catch! I meant to say 02/01/14

Bike resurrection is dependant upon receiving frame...which I haven't received yet. ETA on frame is possibly 02/10 (bought from ebay). I still need to order rearsets. I will probably go with Woodcrafts since they are known for crash durability and since Sofia runs Woodcrafts we would be able to share a lot of parts. Plus, it seems a lot of other racers like the AP Moto-Arts guys and many other racers run Woodcrafts.

However with the Woodcrafts, they do not offer a lot adjustability. So I also ordered a set of Yoshimura Riser plates so I can have my pegs higher and not risk grinding my pegs.