Avoiding the Rear Brake

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Not that I have a problem with covering the brake while riding on the street but why don't they teach this during the MSF?

Because the initial reaction of majority of people is to squeeze the brakes HARD. It's a panic reaction and an SR.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

...........Excellent article, thanks

You are welcome

Try learning some new riding technique and practice it as frequently as you can.

Never stop improving your skills, one of them may save your life one day.

It has been raining here in Florida for two days; I have been practicing emergency braking on wet pavement (of an empty parking lot) to the point of overloading the front tire and initiating a brief skid.

The reflex that I am trying to burn onto my few neurons?: to release the lever and gently re-apply the front brake to resume braking.

The practicality of that?: front tire skid on a straight line is something dangerous that can happen even on dry pavement due to sudden-strong initial squeezing or due to oil, sand, plastic signals, etc.

At least for me, practicing things like these is fun and I believe that automatic reflexes are our only hope in really bad emergency situations.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Motofool

The reflex that I am trying to burn onto my few neurons?: to release the lever and gently re-apply the front brake to resume braking.

Next goal: Try it on an inconsistently packed icy/snowy mix on a bicycle. Crank it up to 25 or so, then see how fast you can come to a stop

It's good fun.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Next goal: Try it on an inconsistently packed icy/snowy mix.....

We don't have that mix available down here..............

[csmith12]

Sand will work just fine.... I know you got plenty of that. And honestly, doing this on a pedal bike first is a good idea. Locking up the front is not fun at all. CSS has the braking bike designed with the outriggers just for this purpose. They are VIR this year you east coaster.

[himynameisjoe]

A good rear lock up can be fun sometimes it also scares the **** out of people. Then again, I'm an asshole

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Sand will work just fine.... I know you got plenty of that. And honestly, doing this on a pedal bike first is a good idea......

Yes, Chris, I also practice over sand patches that are always available on abandoned parking lots.

However, in my experience, skidding on water and sand feels very different.

It seems to me that the frontal skid on water is harder to feel at the beginning (specially over smooth surface) and more unforgiving if the corrective reaction is delayed.

Agree, the idea of practicing with the bicycle is very good.

[ahamay]

Sorry to bump this up but to the OP, I would suggest you look into some mx riding. Dirty bikes will teach you so much more than you could ever believe about riding. General bike controls/control, sliding, and will help you use your rear brake. Plus mx will build your stamina and force you to keep your controls covered. You will have to learn how to fluctuate your clutch to keep from stalling and use front/rear brakes entering a corner while the bike is doing all kinds of wonderful things. Plus, plus, it's just a blast to do!!

[Yakaru]

Thanks for the advice ahamay, it might be fun to try one day. I did do some more practice though and I think I figured out some of the core issues I was having.

The biggest issue for me was 'resetting' -- if I was on the rear brake for something and then had to go to a much harder brake I would hit the rear again and come close to locking it up. My primary fix, other than practicing that scenario specifically to get the muscle memory to be about where to put my foot instead of how much extra to push, has been to just favor the front brake more even for slight slowdowns.

[alex.s]

i use front brake only with engine brake ... when you really give it what-for on the front brakes the rear tire is typically squirming or off the ground... the engine is nice and smooth with its restriction, wont lock up more than a quick chirp

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

..........with engine brake... the engine is nice and smooth with its restriction, wont lock up more than a quick chirp

That is a technique for wet road that somebody taught me long ago.
The principle is that the resistance of the engine is pneumatic (elastic), while the brake pads can easily overdo and induce a lock up.
It is, however, associated to proper sequential downshift and some clutch slip manipulation to make the rear braking process more forgiving in marginal traction conditions.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Motofool

That is a technique for wet road that somebody taught me long ago.
The principle is that the resistance of the engine is pneumatic (elastic), while the brake pads can easily overdo and induce a lock up.
It is, however, associated to proper sequential downshift and some clutch slip manipulation to make the rear braking process more forgiving in marginal traction conditions.

yeah and unless you're psychic it's near impossible to be in the correct rev zone for an emergency brake. good for racing though where you know exactly where you are going to be braking.

[Yakaru]

Totally off topic but since we're talking engine braking: anyone know if the Ninja 300 does DFCO? It lets me get some amazing mileage on my Fit. (For those who don't know: Deceleration Fuel CutOff -- basically when you engine brake the system changes to a closed loop and uses no fuel).

[alex.s]

its like a jake brake?

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Totally off topic but since we're talking engine braking: anyone know if the Ninja 300 does DFCL? It lets me get some amazing mileage on my Fit. (For those who don't know: Deceleration Fuel CutOff -- basically when you engine brake the system changes to a closed loop and uses no fuel).

I highly doubt, some honda scooters do this and they really advertise the feature, i'm working on the logic of if it did, they would have advertised it a lot more.

You'll probably see better milage from the 300 than the 250, the FI bikes seem to acheieve a more efficient mix.

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by alex.s

its like a jake brake?

Lol no, when the engine isn't being used when engine braking, or stopped in traffic they cut off the fuel.

I believe a jake brake is a hydrolic mechanism. Scrap that, seems like a diesel engine thing with compression, I remember thinking "WTF is a jake brake?!" Driving through Poinciana FL where a sign said "NO JAKE BRAKES, WILDLIFE AREA" it's a cool name.

[Motofool]

"A compression release engine brake, frequently called a Jake brake or Jacobs brake, is an engine braking mechanism installed on some diesel engines.
In the gasoline engine, with the accelerator released,..........the throttle itself provides engine braking through friction in the air flowing through it. But a diesel engine does not have a butterfly valve to limit air on the intake side.
Compression-release ("Jake") braking, a form of engine braking used almost exclusively on diesel engines, produces extreme amounts of noise pollution if there is no muffler on the intake manifold of the engine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compres...e_engine_brake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_braking

Gasoline engines (even fuel injected ones) get the power output controlled by choking the air intake, while Diesel engines by limiting the flow of fuel (the air intake is unrestricted at all times).

I see no reason for the DFI system of the 300 to supply fuel while the engine is braking, like it happens in cars.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Totally off topic......

Returning to topic, today, there is a free clinic for braking in Belmont, CA 94002:

http://www.pashnit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33193

http://www.docwong.com/st-clinc/index.htm

More than 300 miles from @Yakaru, but no more than 30 from @Jiggles.

[Jiggles]

I've been considering going to a doc wong clinic

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Totally off topic but since we're talking engine braking: anyone know if the Ninja 300 does DFCO? It lets me get some amazing mileage on my Fit. (For those who don't know: Deceleration Fuel CutOff -- basically when you engine brake the system changes to a closed loop and uses no fuel).

No idea. I have DFCO on my fuel injection conversion kit on my ninjette and it definitely helps. I get high 50's, even with a nice rich map, a full exhaust system, a pod filter instead of an air box, and a mix of commuting/spirited riding.

But a quick correction: closed loop is when the system gets feedback from oxygen sensors in the exhaust, open loop is when there are no oxygen sensors sniffing the exhaust. The loop is for data, not for fuel. DFCO can be used with either open loop or closed loop because all it does is stop powering the injectors.

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

No idea. I have DFCO on my fuel injection conversion kit on my ninjette and it definitely helps. I get high 50's, even with a nice rich map, a full exhaust system, a pod filter instead of an air box, and a mix of commuting/spirited riding.

But a quick correction: closed loop is when the system gets feedback from oxygen sensors in the exhaust, open loop is when there are no oxygen sensors sniffing the exhaust. The loop is for data, not for fuel. DFCO can be used with either open loop or closed loop because all it does is stop powering the injectors.

Good knowledge to have! I assumed they were the same thing since on my Fit the DFCO always turns on at the same time the loop sensor switches over. The more you know .........*

[ally99]

Originally Posted by rPanda

Just south of the fun stick.

Holy friggin' ****, I just LMAO at the "fun stick"!!!!

Edited: Oops, original phrase had a few too many ***. Sorry, chilling nicely tonight.

[BRad704]

I know this thread has devolved quite a ways away from the original topic, but I have a rear brake comment.

I had a panic stop today (my first) and I was apparently all over the rear brake. :|

Giant F-650 work truck with full boxes on back made a hard swerve into the turn lane as we approached a light. From my lane, he disappeared and a full line of stopped cars appeared! Said a quick expletive and then got on both brakes pretty hard. Locked up the rear and did a nice little fishtail slide for a bit. In my mind, it looked badass! but I know I was lucky not to eat the back end of the car in front of me...

Normally, I don't use rear brake at all...

[Motofool]

You did the braking part OK, the surprise with the cars should not have been so.

[jefe305]

Hey there fellow Vegas biker

In mid December I was going East on Flamingo right after crossing the strip a car quickly switched lanes in front of me. I panicked, and locked up my rear brake. The bike slid out from under me crushing my ankle. Broke it in 3 places requiring surgery with metal plates and screws. Anyways, everyone gave me some great insight on exactly what happened and how to prevent it from happening again. You can check out my thread and all the useful comments here. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=162705

[ally99]

My rule is, no rear brake when on the brakes hard. I use the hell out of it at regular stops and when the bike is traveling at low speeds. However, the rear can be tricky, so I didn't start using it until I had been riding a couple of years. The rear brake is a polar opposite preference. Some folks use it and love it and others never even touch it.

[rojoracing53]

Ill use my rear brake in the rain and in sketchy situations but its always an instinctual reaction when I do. I will say that my right foot will alway error to no brakes is something feels off and it seems to have a good feel for auto modulation similar to traction control. I'm not sure when I picked up the technique because I never touched the rear brake while racing and I'm very poor at using it on the dirt bike. It may sound wierd but I may have learned the natural feel of rear brake modulation at the limit of traction from a technique I use in MTBing.

When you have low levels of traction out on the Mtb in flat sweeping turns due to pine needles for example the chances to tuck the front are ten fold. Something I found myself doing naturally(have to idea when I started) was drag the rear brake through the corner to add load to the rear tire. Normally the front wheel of a Mtb takes the brunt of the load when cornering because you can't pedal mid corner and use maintenance throttle to even the load front front to rear. So by dragging the rear brake you can apply load to the rear and by inceasing that load on the rear to just slightly more then the front you can make your rear tire lose traction before the front tire. This is beneficial because if the rear starts to slide you can save it by reversing your applied load, in other words releasing the rear brake. I don't always just release the brake 100% at any sign of sliding, most of the time I trail of the brake to slowly regain traction I a similar method to how I release my clutch lever to slow the Superbikes down instead of a rear brake. If you start to lose the front end you only way to reverse the load to to accelerate with some steering input, on a Mtb bike you can't accelerate so that's why I use the rear brake drag method.

The amount of braking power I apply mid corner on the Mtb bike is extreamly small because it doesn't take much to transfer load on a 25lbs bicycle. This I believe has given me a good feel for lightly applying the rear brake on the motorcycle and holding it at that edge of traction.

I don't know how many MTBer use this method since I kinda learned it on my own and I've never heard anyone talk about it in the past but I'd assume its a extremely small percentage. I doubt any of you are going to run out and buy a Mtb to start practicing this technique but I hope is by reading my use of a similar method in a different situation you may figure out how to use your own method for your own situation.

[mgentz]

I use my rear brake a lot on the dirt bike. I also use it in regular stops and corners (if needed) on the ninja. Practice. Practice. Practice.

Few things to note: Nicky Hayden burns through a set of rear pads in a race. We are not Nicky. I have had @rojoracing53 modify my rear brake for me to lessen the power of the rear brake in order to have more finesse. I also did this on my dirt bike.

[menikmati]

I regularly use my rear brake in conjunction with the front during normal commuting and exclusively my rear brake during low speed maneuvers.

If I'm doing any type of aggressive braking then it's front brakes only with a focus on modulating the brakes.

[ez12a]

both brakes day to day. i'm pretty scared about washing out the front tire and i can handle some fishtail with the bike upright in a emergency brake situation.

in parking lots i only lightly use the front brake and use the rear more.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

This I believe has given me a good feel for lightly applying the rear brake on the motorcycle and holding it at that edge of traction.

you also have much more competence when it comes to reading the feedback given to you by your vehicle. Don't forget you only have about 1/3 of your back rotor's braking surface compared to what stock brakes have. You can mash that thing for days ...details detaoils...

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I don't know how many MTBer use this method since I kinda learned it on my own and I've never heard anyone talk about it in the past but I'd assume its a extremely small percentage.

This kid. Usually when it's wet though. Or if I'm doing fast/tight stuff. That's when I really would rather loose the rear instead of the front. Rather spin off the trail than push into a tree.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

you also have much more competence when it comes to reading the feedback given to you by your vehicle. Don't forget you only have about 1/3 of your back rotor's braking surface compared to what stock brakes have. You can mash that thing for days ...details detaoils...



This kid. Usually when it's wet though. Or if I'm doing fast/tight stuff. That's when I really would rather loose the rear instead of the front. Rather spin off the trail than push into a tree.

All the more reason everyone should be sending me their rotors to modify. Everyone is always looking for that magic pill to make them a better rider But with this simple mod you get that magic pill. Don't start about me not moding the pregens rotor, it's not my fault some jackass at Kawasaki was drunk when he wrote the program for drilling your mismatched hole patterns

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Don't start about me not modding the pregen's rotor, it's not my fault some jackass at Kawasaki was drunk when he wrote the program for drilling your mismatched hole patterns

nahhhhh, just come up with a pattern to cut out that includes all of those damn holes!!! duh!

[mgentz]

Slow speed maneuvers should be ALL rear brake

[menikmati]

Originally Posted by mgentz

Slow speed maneuvers should be ALL rear brake

Just found out that I had them swapped around, fixed my post.