Wheelies

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Hi all, I'm in the process of learning wheelies and wanted to see if any of the posters here want to start a discussion on them. I have a few questions I would like to ask someone with the knowledge. A couple issues I keep running into are 1) when dumping the clutch I can't seem to hold the bars well enough with my left hand because the pointer finger I use to hold the clutch doesn't make its way back in time. This creates an imbalance that I have to correct before setting the front back down.
2) where do you place your weight on the bike? Squatting seems to help a bit but when pumping the front downward my weight shifts forward too much which kills the wheelie. Is a lot of force necessary to get the front up or should I let the bike do all the work? I've heard you should "come up with the bike" but I'm still unsure what this means for my body placement.
3)Hand placement on the throttle- to get this bikes front end up you've gotta give it a lot of throttle. What I'm worried about is the point of too much. Is it too much to go WOT at the rpm you dump the clutch? Or should you hit your balance point fairly quick and be revving at that point?

I just want to say in advance I know there are some who will try to discourage
This topic but please just be open to different types of 'skills' and/or styles. This issome something I have always wanted to learn and I think it is safer than what I would be doing otherwise so please respect this thread thx!

[Alex]

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3

[Motofool]

Link to original page on YouTube.

It is possible with the Ninjette:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc....1.IvzceJebjUc

Link to original page on YouTube.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Alex

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3

Thx Alex, but those threads never got to the actual discussion! Please please please keep the policing out of this one. Let's talk about wheelies only! Start a new thread for all else.
Now I was reading how some people wanted to power wheelie their 250, from my experience I don't think this bike will be able to in any gear! I'm interested in the downshifting techniques ppl have tried though. I have only been able to get a good distanced wheelie in from 1st gear inching forward almost at a stop before dumping it at 9k or more. Longest one I did I had it at about 13k revs but I don't think that is necessary.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

There are many factors to consider with these bikes. We have to have the proper combination of throttle, speed, and positioning to compensate for the low horsepower. That's why I started the thread with a couple of questions. We all know the theory behind wheelies so what specifically do we need to be mindful of with OUR bikes? Most videos I've seen with the 250 therider was too far forward which resulted in a quick up and down. How does our wheelbase compare to other bikes? How does our "reach" and peg positioning compare?

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

There are many factors to consider with these bikes. We have to have the proper combination of throttle, speed, and positioning to compensate for the low horsepower. That's why I started the thread with a couple of questions. We all know the theory behind wheelies so what specifically do we need to be mindful of with OUR bikes? Most videos I've seen with the 250 therider was too far forward which resulted in a quick up and down. How does our wheelbase compare to other bikes? How does our "reach" and peg positioning compare?

Ninja 250's are just not that good at wheelies, if you want to pull one, make high revs, position yourself as far back as possible and dump the clutch.

[lgk]

last time i did a wheelie it was from launching hard...
didn't stay up for too long though, 10ft probably, since i was hugging the tank.

i think if you change the sprocket it might muster enough leverage to wheelie at low speed.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

Ninja 250's are just not that good at wheelies, if you want to pull one, make high revs, position yourself as far back as possible and dump the clutch.

Ninja 250s are relatively bad at wheelies. For the record this discussion pertains to the low speed low gear parking lot wheelies where we can actual hit the balance point and hold it there as opposed to the one we saw that guy do on the freeway for that lady with the long wavy hair in the nearby car.

I'm trying to get into the specifics such as rpms, speed, and throttle play. We all have the same bike so that we should be able to replicate what is posted here with results.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

And so far it seems were in agreement around 9k rpms is the magic number however nobody has commented on what to do after that. From my experience a higher rpm might be needed to actually hit the point where you can and should start pulsating the throttle versus hammering it on in an attempt to keep the sinking front end from returning to ground

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

I can easily rev to 9k, dump the clutch and get a small wheelie in sitting down in 1st gear. That is one reason I have doubts that 9k is enough to reach balance point, that is unless there are other factors in play such as pumping the bike and dumping the clutch immediately after. By the way my bike runs 1down 2 up I should have mentioned that

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

As for pumping the bike: the only reason I ever remembered to try it was from seeing someone do it on the freeway going about 75 mph. It helped him get his wheelie up and stable so I could only imagine it would help us. This was obviously an experienced rider.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

On a sidenote if anyone wants to spend a few hours in a parking lot w me practicing pm me.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Link to original page on YouTube.

It is possible with the Ninjette:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc....1.IvzceJebjUc

Link to original page on YouTube.

Thx moto I will take a look when my internet is faster. You're always a help!

[Joshorilla]

Why don't you spend less time having a discussion pertaining to the technicalities to pulling a wheelie and actually go out their and try.

A little less conversation a little more action please.

But to get technical, to pull a wheelie you need to lift all the weight forward of the rear wheel up and continue to do so till the amount of weight infront of the rear wheel is equal to that behind the rear wheel.

For this to be acheived, you need to shift your weight backwards to give less weight for the bike to lift forward of the balancing point, acheive the highest amount of torque from your engine which is typically 9krpm, and deliver that to the rear wheel as quickly as possible to transfer that energy to lifting the front up as opposed to pushing it forward, once you near the balancing point, throttle and rear brake control is all you need to maintain the wheelie along side balance.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

I can easily rev to 9k, dump the clutch and get a small wheelie in sitting down in 1st gear. That is one reason I have doubts that 9k is enough to reach balance point, that is unless there are other factors in play such as pumping the bike and dumping the clutch immediately after. .....

You are welcome, Justin; always asking interesting and challenging questions

The specs for the EX-250-F show maximum torque at around 9K rpms'.

"13.15 ft·lb (17.83 N·m) @ 9,000 rpm tested at rear wheel"

At higher rpm's the torque goes down (HP keeps going up until ~12.5K because HP = torque x rpm, and rpms' grow faster than the torque declines).

"28.05 bhp (20.92 kW) @ 12,500 rpm"

Reactive torque working against the combined inertia of your body and bike is what pitches the nose of the bike up; hence, to overcome maximum resistive moment (torque), you need to keep the engine turning for max torque, not for max HP.

Once it is up, CG moves aft and less torque is needed to keep it that way.

"A major problem with doing a wheelie is that the acceleration required to initially lift the front wheel is far in excess of the acceleration required to maintain the wheelie - if the throttle is not closed quick enough the motorcycle can keep rotating around the rear wheel and loop, throwing the rider off the back.

Where engine power is important is in its ability to accelerate the bike. On smaller bikes the sustainable acceleration isn't sufficient to apply enough torque to lift the front wheel. However, using tricks such as 'dipping' the clutch or tugging on the handlebars, a brief burst of extra torque can be applied for a short time. This extra torque is not sustainable but, as we can see above, once the CoG has moved up and back a much lower torque (that is, acceleration) is required to sustain a wheelie."

http://www.wheelysafe.co.uk/physics.html

One way to help the nose up move is to stand up on the pegs and to extend your arms during the initiation of the wheelie, moving the combined CG up and aft (at least a modest amount) and making the resultant vector cross beyond the rear axle.

Link to original page on YouTube.

A bigger rear sprocket will increase the forward force on the contact patch (and the forward acceleration).

[csmith12]

If your just starting to learn, get a dirt bike, gear and go try in the dirt. It's cheaper....

[Alex]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

Please please please keep the policing out of this one. Let's talk about wheelies only! Start a new thread for all else.

A discussion about wheelies on a Ninja 250 site is incomplete without stating the obvious, that the bikes aren't suited for it. A corrollary is that if a rider has to ask a million questions about how to go about it, they probably shouldn't be asking them in the first place. You will drop the bike, you will break things, and you will realize in hindsight that there were probably better ways to spend your time. All that said, good luck.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

Why don't you spend less time having a discussion pertaining to the technicalities to pulling a wheelie and actually go out their and try.

A little less conversation a little more action please.

I spent a few hours practicing today. Please don't make assumptions. Did you see motofools response? Do you think I would have gotten that without getting technical?

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

Thx moto I will take a look when my internet is faster. You're always a help!

I love the car that rockets by at 2:55

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

I spent a few hour.s practicing today. Please don't make assumptions. Did you see motofools response? Do you think I would have gotten that without getting technical?

So how were your results?

Go get help from stunters. I'm sure there is a group of stunters near you. They are everywhere in Florida.

The local stunters are doing a ride, and show, on New Years day in Daytona. Show up and see riders do wheelies before, during, and after the ride.

Moto Stop is putting it together.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I love the car that rockets by at 2:55



So how were your results?

Go get help from stunters. I'm sure there is a group of stunters near you. They are everywhere in Florida.

The local stunters are doing a ride, and show, on New Years day in Daytona. Show up and see riders do wheelies before, during, and after the ride.

Moto Stop is putting it together.

I'll check out the stunt show if it's not too late. I've been to one years ago and had a good time. My results were what I had written in the original post. I think I just need to pump less and lean back more.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

I'll check out the stunt show if it's not too late. I've been to one years ago and had a good time. My results were what I had written in the original post. I think I just need to pump less and lean back more.

http://youtu.be/d3NGQHROFQc

[xSean13]

Are you wearing the right gear?

Ya know... flip flops, shorts, tank top (at most...shirtless preferably), etc

[Kevin2109]

I dont understand why this forum always has to get all high and mighty. He wants to pop wheelies, he is asking how, he isnt asking what sort of gear to wear. Just answer the mans question, jesus

They are a little difficult on the 250 but not impossible. Here are basic steps:

1. Roll 5-10 mph
2. Pull the clutch and rev to 10k-12k
3. Quickly feather the clutch (not dump it)
4. Just hold the throttle and ride the wheelie out

You should always have your foot over the rear brake incase of an emergency

Its even possible to loop a 250

Link to original page on YouTube.






NOW is the appropriate time to put your in, after you answered the OP's question

Remember to gear up, and never ride too far outside of your comfort lever

[Alex]

Mainly, because this forum isn't intended to promote that crashing is OK, destroying bikes is OK, or abusing equipment is OK. Sometimes the right answer isn't directly related to the question.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Ok, so I managed to get a quick ride in today. I can get the wheelies up now a lot more easily but I still need to figure out how to get that clutch finger back on the bars quickly!

I think a problem I was having yesterday was just not giving it enough throttle during the clutch up. When done right the engine is gonna be at its loudest and it shouldn't even drop in rpms while lifting. I had it in the back of my head that you could get it up most of the way with the clutch and then power it up the rest of the way but I learned today that's not really the case. When you clutch it up it should go all the way up.

I got up to the balance point today sitting down and it was a little scary. I racked my nuts pretty good too on the way down. I grabbed a fistful of throttle and pulled a long one out; maybe a little too much throttle, I am not sure to be honest.
One thing that worries me is my hand grabbing the throttle and not being able to let off like when you hit the powerband and your bike kind of takes off from you and you have to hang on causing you to throttle it more? Make sense?

I've seen some vids on youtube where they advocate to blip the throttle when clutching up. I don't think we have that luxury with our engines and I think it is best to dump the clutch while throttling on until we are up there.

I need to start some drills where I bring the bike down with the brakes because it's not exactly 2nd nature to me as of now...

I pulled a few standing up as well but those are a little more difficult for me for some reason. I definitely do them better after I do a few sitting down but balancing them with my feet offset is going to take practice. Getting the whole pump action down takes coordination...

Once my left forearm is done being sore from these one finger clutchups I think I can make some more progress. I am going to experiment a little with the amount of throttle I hammer on. It seems like how fast you rev it plays a big role as you can get it up to 9k and have nothing happen one time but another time you can get it up a couple feet.

Hope everyone is making big plans to bring in the new year!

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by xSean13

Are you wearing the right gear?

Ya know... flip flops, shorts, tank top (at most...shirtless preferably), etc

I got my wife beater and sandals coming in the mail from kneedraggers. Rush delivery.

[JA-Moo]

Little bikes are the hardest to wheelie, as we know, there is just not any hp to pull the bike up to balance. Dumping the clutch at low speed is about the only way to do it, and the hardest way to wheelie and most likely way to crash. Which you will, probably sooner than later. The bike has to come up fast, feathering the throttle is only for bikes that have hp to rotate the bike the bike up to balance point.

It's a dumb thing to do, but you will not take any advise. So wear gear, and have your insurance paid up, on you and your bike. Don't do it alone, and preferable close to a hospital. Order clutch plates so they will be there when you wreck yours. These are commuter bikes, built cheap, and not for this kind of abuse........

[DeviantTurtle]

Generally speaking, you would want to go with the largest rear sprocket to create the most low end torque possible, unfortunately I don’t think a 60 tooth sprocket is available for the Ninja 250 (I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) So the best way I could think to transfer weight would be to stand on your passenger pegs, since the 250 really does not have the power to carry a wheelie you are going to need to bring the bike somewhereto a 75 to 90 degree angle to maintain a wheelie longer than 10 feet! Also would recommend lowering your rear tire PSI to help with balance! The downside to using the passenger pegs is you no longer can use your rear break and your throttle is now your only control. As far as body positions goes, the farther up you bring the bike the closer you want your chest to the tank.
So, body as far back as possible to get the bike up, than the more the front end comes up the more you want to bring your body in to counter balance! I am sure you are only using first gear at this point, when the bike comes up to the point which you need to maintain a wheelie it is going to feel like it will come all the way around, at this point you will use your throttle for complete control. Too much and you know you will flip, too little and the bike is going to come back down. You will feel the sweet spot when you find it  Best of luck to you. Note the angel and body language!


Couldnt get the video to work??? but check out the link this guy pretty much has it down :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St-gLJak0S8

[himynameisjoe]

Fixed

Link to original page on YouTube.

[DeviantTurtle]

Thank you :-) Not sure what I was going wrong :-)

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by DeviantTurtle

Thank you :-) Not sure what I was going wrong :-)

When you use the YouTube tag, just use the video id not the whole URL. The string of random characters after the "watch?v=" bit.

[DeviantTurtle]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

When you use the YouTube tag, just use the video id not the whole URL. The string of random characters after the "watch?v=" bit.

Ok, cool...Thanks

[subxero]

Like other have said, 250 ninja not best for wheelies. Things that can help, change sprocket, and try standing on seat or rear pegs like the guy in vid few posts up. This will help take weight off front.

Other than that it just takes lots of practice, find that rev and point on the clutch that allows you to get it up to the balance point....which is pretty high up there, again see vid few posts above.

I got bored the other day and wanted to see just how hard it would be to get my ninja up, so i did a few wheelies in my parking lot, but i was doing them from stand still with feet on the ground feathering clutch out while holding the bike back. This is the easiest way to get it up and then hop on to it. I have lots of practice at this though, been doing it for years on my wifes little 125 dirtbike as it is the only way to get it to wheelie. My dirtbike on the other hand will simply wheelie in any gear as long as you are in the meat of the powerband, no clutch just roll on the throttle and press with your legs, but it also goes over that much easier to :/ and i don't like replacing rear fenders.

Just keep practicing, getting the bike up is the easy part, throttle control and balance after to maintain is the tricky part.

[250rr]

Originally Posted by JA-Moo

Don't do it alone, and preferable close to a hospital. Order clutch plates so they will be there when you wreck yours.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by JA-Moo

........These are commuter bikes, built cheap, and not for this kind of abuse........

Sorry, but Ninjettes are anything but built cheap.

Just buy and use a Chinese or Russian motorcycle.

Wheelies can destroy any bike, if repeated enough times (even if not crashing, they over-stress the whole transmission); however, machine's longevity seems not to be the priority of many riders

[Panda]

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

I can get the wheelies up now a lot more easily but I still need to figure out how to get that clutch finger back on the bars quickly!

Where is your left pinky toe in relation to your right pinky toe? If they are not in alignment if your clutch finger is off the handlebars this will exacerbate a pinky toe alignment problem forcing you to readjust as you bring the front wheel back down.

[akima]

* Akima wonders if the ninja 300's slipper clutch would stop ninjetters from doing wheelies *

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by akima

* Akima wonders if the ninja 300's slipper clutch would stop ninjetters from doing wheelies *

Good question !

Slipper clutches are a one-way mechanism:

-They allow all the torque to be transmitted from the engine to the rear wheel (case of the wheelie).

-They limit the amount of torque to be transmitted from the rear wheel to the engine (avoiding engine's over-rpm's induced by the rear tire during non-coordinated downshifting).

Read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipper_clutch

[allanoue]

I think that is a yes or no question. No. I got the front up a bit in the air on my test ride and I was just trying to get from 10-80 as fast I it would go.

also
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=121097

Originally Posted by old3

My Area-P tuner arrived today. I have an Akra slip on for a 250 and a decatted stock header.

AWESOME.

The engine now pretty much totally exceeds anything I ever expected a 250 Ninja based engine could ever be, and it was already doing that stock! The torque is even better than before, pulls clean from 2500 RPM, hauls with a hit into the low mid around 4500, then flat pulls hard to around 12500. It might fall off there just a tad but I'm having trouble shifting fast enough to avoid the limiter. It popped the front wheel off the ground in the 1-2 shift.

WOW.

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by rPanda

Where is your left pinky toe in relation to your right pinky toe? If they are not in alignment if your clutch finger is off the handlebars this will exacerbate a pinky toe alignment problem forcing you to readjust as you bring the front wheel back down.

having all but my pointer finger on the bars has proven to be a problem. I guess I might just need to get used to it.