driver guilty for stopping?

[alex.s]

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news...-4-.htm#117610

the girl stopped on the highway, some dumbshit rear ended her and died. so they are blaming her?! what the **** kind of bullshit is that? did she slam on her brakes for no reason? there isn't much info about what happened outside of "she was stopped, and the bike hit her" and so they are sentencing her as responsible for the guy and his daughters deaths. this seems like total bullshit to me.

[Flying]

She was stopped in the fast lane. Nobody wins here.

Motorcyclist couldn't stop for a stationary car and paid with two lives. The driver made a poor decision and has to live with the guilt on top of the sentence.

[alex.s]

cars stop all the time for a variety of reasons. how is it not the motorcyclists fault for driving into the back of a stopped car?

[Flying]

More info: http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06...ks-on-highway/

What I'm guessing is that the jury decided there was a criminal element to the woman's decision because she did not have her hazard lights on. Total bullshit.

I can somewhat see that the attitude that leads to this sentence places human lives over animals. That's great and all, but how is this just when drunk drivers get away with less?

[masashi02a]

i bet if it were a person on the side of the road instead of some ducklings the verdict would be different.while i dont think it was a very valid reason to be stopped, it the job of the motorcyclist to preserve his own life. negligence by both parties.


edit: no hazard lights and the picture were taken during night time, which leaves me to infer this did not happen at peak sunlight. driver is stupid.

[capt_bugaloo]

I've seen this news story on the local TV. My understanding is that the young lady came to a complete stop in the passing (fast) lane because there were some ducks in the lane. I believe there was a moderate amount of traffic, the car in front of the motorcycle dodged from left lane to right lane at the last moment and the motorcycle braked but still hit the car. This is a major highway with a posted limit of 100 KPH (60 mph).

"Emma Czornobaj was convicted Friday by a jury on two counts of criminal negligence causing death and two counts of dangerous driving causing death."

That sounds about right to me. Should the motorcyclist have been paying more attention and been able to stop in time? Perhaps ... but the car driver should have known better than to stop her car in the middle of the freeway and risk human lives to save some little ducklings.

I like cute little duckies as much as anyone else, but you don't stop in the middle of a highspeed road to rescue them unless you are exceptionally dense.

Relax, this is in Canada. We'll probably give her a slap on the wrist and sentence her to community service and ban her from driving for a year. No biggie.

[alex.s]

reading the article from national post makes me disgusted that they are charging her with criminal negligence

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by alex.s

reading the article from national post makes me disgusted that they are charging her with criminal negligence

Why is it disgusting? That's exactly what criminal negligence is. Her heart was in the right place. Unfortunately for all, it was also in a very stupid place. Sometimes there is a penalty for stupidity.

criminal negligence - noun
(law) recklessly acting without reasonable caution and putting another person at risk of injury or death (or failing to do something with the same consequences)

[Motofool]

I fully agree with Alex; this was not a little impact.

Not even the wife and mother blame the girl !!!

Dropping all the road debris that I have to sort each day that I ride on I-95 is not less dangerous than stopping that car on the shoulder of a two-lane highway.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/keyword/road-debris

Why not to use the 1/2 or 2/3 of lane that were not blocked by the stopped car?

[CynicalC]

Just want to point out, that's obviously not where the car was at the point of impact. Notice the lack of debris and the fact that the driver door wouldn't have even opened.

[Alex]

Well known LD rider was killed a few years when he hit a van which had stopped in the fast lane to change a tire. Not near the fast lane; in the fast lane. It's only a matter of time before a vehicle like that gets ass-packed; there are precious few excuses to stop on a freeway for a non-obvious reason (i.e. everybody is stopped due to traffic).

[Hero Danny]

I sincerely doubt that any experienced rider would slam into a parked car on the highway, unless he was just plain not paying attention.

I bet you she hit the brakes hard for whatever reason and he rear ended her (maybe she wasn't paying attention herself and someone cut her off, or whatever). She got 14 years in prison, I think that's a little high. I mean she made a mistake.. I believe she should be punished for it though. I'd probably put her in for 3-5 years.

[supersport]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I sincerely doubt that any experienced rider would slam into a parked car on the highway, unless he was just plain not paying attention.

I bet you she hit the brakes hard for whatever reason and he rear ended her (maybe she wasn't paying attention herself and someone cut her off, or whatever). She got 14 years in prison, I think that's a little high. I mean she made a mistake.. I believe she should be punished for it though. I'd probably put her in for 3-5 years.

From what i read. She stop around a blind corner. So no one saw a stop car until they came out of the corner. To make it worst, the bikers didnt see the stop car until the car in from of them swerve out of the lane. By that time it was too late.

This is what i've read so i'm not sure if this is what actually transpired.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I sincerely doubt that any experienced rider would slam into a parked car on the highway, unless he was just plain not paying attention.

There are more circumstances than you might think where this can happen to alert drivers. With a car stopped dead, and other cars still going at speed behind it, even if the first car swerves to miss it, the second, third, etc. may not. The amount of time they have to react goes progressively down, and if one of those is a bike, it's bad news. The following cars don't have the benefit of longer sight lines to that stopped vehicle, and require quicker and quicker reaction times (and available escape routes).

[corksil]

I only skimmed the article and did not look at any of the pictures, so I probably have no business posting...

But if someone came to a complete stop on a highway, just to let some little ducklings cross the road... they should absolutely bear the brunt of the punishment for causing accidental death of another.

The trial heard that Czornobaj, who had three years' driving experience at the time, had stopped to rescue ducklings on the side of the road.

The professed animal lover told the court that she did not see the ducklings' mother anywhere and planned to capture them and take them home.

Excuse me this is not farmville and wonderland, the fairy godmother isn't going to show up and turn everyone into mice... This the real world. It's ugly. The strong survive as the weak are crushed underfoot. The life form capable of designing a vehicle and building roads to operate it upon is far superior to some newborn winged insect that can't even keep track of it's mother and wanders into danger as a result.

Given, I didn't read the article so I probably have no business posting.

However it is sad that it takes 'examples' such as this girl and her blatant stupidity in the face of common sense to elicit feelings of "point-the-finger" among the masses. Why don't we have this in the school curriculum? Why wasn't this taught in driver's ed?

"If you see ducklings on the highway, do not pull over or attempt rescue. The fairy godmother will come along and rescue them promptly. She is probably already on her way. Blow the ducklings a kiss, and continue along your commute."

[corksil]

By the way, I'd like to point out an observation of a reoccurring phenomenon -- "Are human lives or animal lives more valuable? Here's an example of a real-world situation, what do you think about it?"

As always, it makes for an excellent discussion, but no social progress is made because at the end of the day, everyone gets too caught up in labeling others and feeling superior as a result.

Oh wait, apparently the people who died were riding a motorcycle. Is that supposed to irritate me enough to jump on a "motorcyclist-rights-campaign" bandwagon?

Or should I instead jump on the "make-motorcycles-illegal-because-they-are-dangerous" unpopular but opposing viewpoint bandwagon?

EDIT -- apparently this happened in canada eh, so everyone will probably shake hands and resolve their differences with 47 thank you notes once it leaves the public eye.

[Brian]

Blame the ducks!

[corksil]

The most dangerous risk of all is the risk of spending your life not doing what you want.

I quoted your signature, change it quick before it goes out of style.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by corksil

I quoted your signature, change it quick before it goes out of style.

What's that supposed to mean

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I sincerely doubt that any experienced rider would slam into a parked car on the highway, unless he was just plain not paying attention.

I bet you she hit the brakes hard for whatever reason and he rear ended her (maybe she wasn't paying attention herself and someone cut her off, or whatever). She got 14 years in prison, I think that's a little high. I mean she made a mistake.. I believe she should be punished for it though. I'd probably put her in for 3-5 years.

can happen far more often than you'd think, it began happening quite regularly to cop cars here when they were instructed to park in line rather than diagonally across the lanes. These things are lit up like xmas trees & covered in reflective panels.

Pity it was a bike not a 40 foot truck, Darwin cold have sorted her out

Project Overview
We were asked to consider why so many people collide with the rear of a stationary police car on a motorway. We started, like all our projects, with a careful understanding of the problem. In the first instance it appears at best strange that so many people collide with a highly visible vehicle. Using models of human perception and data gathering methodologies we investigated the crashes and found that these were caused by middle aged drivers – rather than young inexperienced drivers which is the norm. We undertook a field study and ran a number of simulations. Prior to our work police vehicle parked in-line with the approaching traffic. Following our work police vehicles parked at an angle to the approaching vehicles. The distance at which drivers react is increased – and the number of losses has radically decreased. This work was published in the following journal:

Langham M, Hole G, Edwards J, O'Neil C. (2002). An analysis of 'looked but failed to see' accidents involving parked police vehicles Ergonomics 45, 3, 167-185(19)

[Ninjinsky]

.

[CZroe]

Wow! She should be no more guilty after stopping than during a stop where the rider would have been at fault for not maintaining a safe distance for stopping.

There must be more to the story, like she jumped out from behind the car to stop the bike from passing or something.

[Ninjinsky]

So nobody actually involved wants to prosecute but hey, there's lawyers in town so it's gonna happen anyway.
I guess there is no latin term for "damage limitation"

[Hossua]

It's all relative, if the lady had been killed everyone would blame the other vehicle. Sometimes there are vehicles or other obstructions in the road. Negotiating your way around these obstacles is part of driving on a public road.

[fishdip]

....

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

Why do these things happen so often?
..........Note the small print at 70 "twenty-four car lengths"

It took her car the same distance and time to stop for rescuing the little ducks; plenty to alert the immediately following vehicles.

Emergency lights, smoke signals, fireworks, brake lights mean nothing to drivers who fly while distracted by worries, phones, etc.
Those will not see an elephant seating on the road !!!

In this sad case, the cause was not inevitable because it was lack of common sense.
However, similar dangerous situations happen by the thousands everyday: flat tires, police stops, disable vehicles, road debris, etc.

If lack of common sense and lack of attention while operating a vehicle were fairly punishable, 90% of the world's population would be guilty.

I witnessed a driver taking off from a traffic light next to me and killing an old lady who was crossing the street 100' ahead of us.
I saw the guy texting while waiting for the light to change; I firmly believe that he was still texting during those 100': not looking forward was the only way to miss that walking person.

I stopped and saw that guy crying, not because he had killed an human being; he was just repeating his concern about going to jail.
While others run to help that poor lady, he didn't even try.
Months later, the law let that guy go because it was considered "involuntary manslaughter".
That guy is driving among us and possibly driving-texting again.

[alex.s]

they say the car in front of him swerved to avoid the car and he hit the brakes instead.

it sounds like he was tailgating a car who wasn't paying attention and not paying attention himself. and was then surprised by the unexpected and had no room to react. plus how fast was he going to do that to that car?

yes it was stupid to stop for no reason. but potential life sentence? for stopping your car on the highway? no.

[fry1024]

For ducks?! Really? Come on. I'm glad they found her guilty if for nothing else to at least set precedent that stopping on a highway for something as stupid as "saving ducks" will not be tolerated.

The car driver is getting off easy considering that it could have been a semi that hit the car ending her life.

[alex.s]

if there had been an accident and a disabled car in the fast lane instead of a girl stopped for ducks, would the outcome have been different? i think no. the fact is that the death was the result of poor driving by the motorcyclist and the car in front of him. the hazard was created by the girl. i think you should punish her for creating a hazard in the road. not for the death of someone operating unsafely. it takes two people making mistakes to lead to an accident typically.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by fry1024

The car driver is getting off easy considering that it could have been a semi that hit the car ending her life.

OT question
as a Brit I often hear Americans call trucks ('Lorries' to us) "semis". What does it mean? Semi is "half" over here. Can't see how it relates?
Ta

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

OT question
as a Brit I often hear Americans call trucks ('Lorries' to us) "semis". What does it mean? Semi is "half" over here. Can't see how it relates?
Ta

In this context, Semi =

His comment means = Because a large truck going 60+mph is Judge, Jury and Executioner.

[capt_bugaloo]

Semi-trailer
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A semi-trailer is a trailer without a front axle. A large proportion of its weight is supported by a road tractor, a detachable front axle assembly known as a dolly, or the tail of another trailer. A semi-trailer is normally equipped with landing gear (legs which can be lowered) to support it when it is uncoupled.

A road tractor coupled to a semi-trailer is often called a semi-trailer truck or semi in the US and an articulated lorry or artic in the UK. The fifth wheel on a truck connects to a semi trailer Kingpin. Kingpins come in many guises, however the most common within the UK market is the 2.0 in (50.8 mm) EEC approved type. This Kingpin is fully interchangeable and, given a strict maintenance schedule, it should last the life of a trailer.

[corksil]

Originally Posted by Brian

What's that supposed to mean

Do you think the ducks attempting to cross the road were in fact doing what they wanted? Or perhaps they were at risk because they were spending their lives NOT doing what they wanted.

The most dangerous risk of all is the risk of spending your life not doing what you want.

Don't mind me, just being an ass.

[kdogg2077]

It's one thing for a car to stop on the highway for reasons beyond the driver's control (accident ahead, mechanical failure, construction) but to just decide to stop to help an animal is your own free choice, and so you bear some responsibility for the outcome.

She deserves some jail time. Maybe not the 14 years she was sentenced to though. Three to five seems better to me but I don't know much about the law and sentencing.

An all around tragedy either way. If I had a daughter I don't think I could take her on a bike with me. Too much risk. I see guys around here with wives/gf/daughters on their bikes with no helmet/gear and I get angry just looking at them.

[capt_bugaloo]

Although the Crown prosecution is pushing for jail time, I doubt it will happen. Hell, drivers up here who kill while drunk or stoned often get suspended sentences or time served; I strongly doubt she'll serve any serious time. My guess is a hefty fine, suspension of licence for a year, and a few hundred hours of community service.

[csmith12]

Stopping for ducks on a highway. Hmmm...

When teaching my kids to drive, I said this;

"Every living thing on this planet has a right to live just as much as you do. From the largest whale, to the smallest frog that sits on the road. And... that right is not taken from them just because you got your license and can now operate a motor vehicle."

****** things happen on the roads every day, sad but true. We need to stop making up new ways to break the law. So a driver, stopped for ducks... big deal, people stop for stupid reasons all the time. You know... right now, there is someone, somewhere driving in reverse on the highway because they missed their exit.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

It's one thing for a car to stop on the highway for reasons beyond the driver's control (accident ahead, mechanical failure, construction) but to just decide to stop to help an animal is your own free choice, and so you bear some responsibility for the outcome.

Indeed, but choice and responsibility doesn't go together in the same sentence in the US.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by supersport

From what i read. She stop around a corner. So no one saw a stop car until they came out of the corner. To make it worst, the bikers didnt see the stop car until the car in from of them swerve out of the lane. By that time it was too late.

This is what i've read so i'm not sure if this is what actually transpired.

THAT makes sense then.

[capt_bugaloo]

Here is an article with more details:
http://www.timescolonist.com/quebec-...hter-1.1137769

I find this part very interesting:

Pauline Volikakis, whose husband and daughter were killed in the collision, briefly fought back tears when she left the courtroom.
She refused to speculate about a possible sentence, saying she just wanted to get on with her life.
"It's been difficult," said Volikakis. "But it's finished. We're moving on other things (and) we hope it will go well.
"I don't wish misfortune on anyone," she added. "It's time that we go on. This will not bring (back) my loved ones."

Volikakis was on another motorcycle behind her husband when the collision happened.
She was driving more slowly and managed to avoid injury.

A provincial police officer testified at the trial that Roy, whose speed was estimated to be from 113 km/h to 129 km/h when he applied his brakes, collided with Czornobaj's car at between 105 km/h and 121 km/h.
The jury was told the speed was higher than the prescribed 90 km/h limit on the road.

I think this is very telling. The wife was riding her own bike slower and managed to avoid the collision.
The husband, AFTER braking, still hit the car at about 20 KPH over the posted limit.
He also managed to scrub off only roughly 10 KPH before the collision, which tells me he either didn't have much time to react, didn't brake very hard, or both.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by capt_bugaloo

I find this part very interesting:

Thanks for that Bugaloo. Puts a whole different spin on the situation. Up to 40K over the limit?
I hope the kid appeals