I learn more in an 8 lap race than 8 months in the street.

[CycleCam303]

Due to financial strain and some crappy stuff happening to me I haven't been able to commit to racing the full season of supermoto USA this year. I did some work for some friends and they helped me to get out and race round 4. I have not been practicing or anything and its been months since I've even been on a kart track.

As most of you know I had a bad crash in the first practice session on the 3rd lap. Being stubborn as I am I toughed it out. Well to a certain extent. My confidence dropped and I wasnt as comfortable pushing as hard as I'd like. I just wanted to try and learn as much as I could from the fast people.

Apparently street riding the ninja doesn't teach you **** lol! All the little things that we get away on the street with turn into huge mistakes and crashes on the track. I'll just note the larger learning experiences.

Being smooth and weight transfer management. I watched twist 2 on Sunday. When he talks about rule no 1 with throttle control and getting on the gas as soon as possible, those two concepts alone mean a whole lot. I. Crashed because I overloaded the rear with throttle and too much aggression. If I was smoother nothing would've happened. On a cold track with cold tires you can't turn fast or abuse the throttle.

Turn in points. On the streets riding with friends, lines don't really matter. Hell when @rojoracing53 jokes about the fastest line being whichever one he takes is true. The average street knob is going so slow compared to what they could be doing that the results of throttle pick up and turn in point don't matter. Simply put, just carrying more speed even if you don't cut a proper apex is more than enough to keep up with squids.

So on a track with highly skilled riders and similar bikes, the honda 150r is the mini motard king, lines and how you set up and when you get on the throttle makes a huge difference. A mistake that most noobs make is that they turn in too early. Keeping the bikes leaned over longer means it will take longer to get on the gas. I started changing my turn in points to keep up. I was learning to take advantage of the flick ability of the motard. Compared to a street bike you can turn in much later. It also opens up more defensive lines and passing lines. I had the Greene construction race team bike pass me by staying to the inside of a left hand hairpin then backing it in, planting a foot right on the apex then run wide to continue slamming the door on me.

And then braking and downshifting. These bikes can stop on a dime. With that said blipping the throttle may not be the fastest way. To be fast you have to exploit the braking abilities of these bikes. This will sound weird but think of backing it in, which is sliding the bike into the apex, similar to dragging knee. It's a product of going fast. I noticed that on the hairpins I was stepping the rear out. I'm making this up as I go but I believe that because the way you're seated on a dirt bike chassis the rear end kind does whatever it wants. When I rev match the rear tire fights to stay in line. It doesn't feel smooth and I can brake harder and deeper if I just focus on the brakes. Jason's slipping the clutch technique is literally what all the top 3 guys do. They are smooth but are sliding the bikes into many of the corners. Of course it's difficult to learn how much clutch to use while braking. Bang down two and let out the clutch and the rear swings out a lot or a little depending on how much you let the clutch slip. Which can lead to insta low side or epic high side if you panic.

It's definitely a different style of riding. Like my mentor says if it was easy everyone would be doing it. Although its different I learn a lot about riding. It's like parking lot practice except at 70+ mph. I spent $60 to learn how to slide a bike, passing techniques, and visualize line better. My hand my be screwed up but on a big track I could've broken a lot of bones in a crash like that. And of course crashing in th street is even more of a no no for me. Everyone here should consider doing a mini moto or supermoto trackday for practice. And racers looking for a way cheaper alternative to get a solid racing experience should look here too.

Gage mccallister and shelina moreda both raced supermoto and this year they are racing the xr1200's in the AMA. Plenty of other AMA kids started racing supermoto. Go find a kart track and get faster!

[Alex]

Yup, makes sense. What it comes down to on street v track, on the street there should always be additional capability in the bank. You're not at max lean angle, you're not at max braking, you're not at max acceleration (except perhaps on the smaller bikes that this crowd prefers). So that means even if you make a mistake, there's still additional capability in the bike/tires/rider to mask or absorb that mistake without anything untoward happening. If there isn't enough margin, then the rider is making some pretty poor choices in the street environment, and likely going way too fast for their own or their bike's inherent capabilities.

On the track, especially in racing conditions, you can't leave nearly as much margin if you're actually trying to improve laptimes, finish higher, etc. So every corner means taking the bike that much closer to its limit, without going over. When there's less margin, that same small error suddenly has consequences. That's pretty much the point of what you're sharing of course, as learning to avoid those small errors and to be more precise in all of your control inputs, is exactly what you're learning while on track.

[alex.s]

managing the weight transfer from front back to rear along with throttle management (not getting too agressive while still maintaining good pull on the rear) is hard to master. my last crash was caused from smacking on the gas directly after letting out the brakes. the rear was mostly unloaded when i wacked on full gas and it slid out from under me. hard skill to learn on asphalt on a 250 that has no power

[Broc]

+100000

Awesome posts lately about actually technique. I am really liking the new ninjette.org. There seems to be a lot of great info pouring out lately, I have really been enjoying Cam and Rojo's posts.

I have actually been referring a lot of people to some of these threads.

Good stuff people!

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by Alex

On the track, especially in racing conditions, you can't leave nearly as much margin if you're actually trying to improve laptimes, finish higher, etc. So every corner means taking the bike that much closer to its limit, without going over. When there's less margin, that same small error suddenly has consequences. That's pretty much the point of what you're sharing of course, as learning to avoid those small errors and to be more precise in all of your control inputs, is exactly what you're learning while on track.

Thanks I couldn't have said it clearer myself.

Semi unrelated but it really helps me cool my street riding speeds down. And my mindset. I can have fun in the streets and leave a decent safety margin. Plus I can be a bit more humble when it comes to being competitive. I have a better sense of my limits and its easier to not push close to them in the streets.

It's a shame so many racers don't ride in the street because it's enjoyable when the angry meter is dialed back.

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by Broc

+100000

Awesome posts lately about actually technique. I am really liking the new ninjette.org. There seems to be a lot of great info pouring out lately, I have really been enjoying Cam and Rojo's posts.

I have actually been referring a lot of people to some of these threads.

Good stuff people!

Thanks that's great to read.

The long time permit riders we deal with at msf are a slight inspiration to help get decent information out there. For me that is. The local motorcycle forum that I frequent hands out jokes and casts stones like no tomorrow. I enjoy cracking jokes and all that but working msf and going on group rides that have a lot of noobs made me realize that maybe we are all too competitive and cocky to be constructive.

I'm no mechanic. I'm a talented driver/rider but I'm not pit crew material. Ninjette.org has been an amazing resource when it comes to working on the bikes. What about technique, actual riding concepts?

I'm no pro and the farthest I'll ever be is a high end club racer. But I throw in my 25 cents to help out. Ninjettes a good place and motorcycling can be extremely discouraging activity for noobs. Trust me I know. So why not help out and build the motorcycling community?

[Broc]

Exactly sir! There is far too much ignorance and misinformation out there about riding! Good to see some people care and are actually putting out legit info.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by Broc

Exactly sir! There is far too much ignorance and misinformation out there about riding! Good to see some people care and are actually putting out legit info.

True there is a lot of misinformation out there, but what I run into is attitude, especially about smaller bikes. I don't understand why people can't just ride what they want to ride or feel comfortable on, but instead have to defend their choice or feel pressured about their bike.

I like our community here, lot's of good people, good resources, and most important, good attitudes towards other riders.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

good attitudes towards other riders.

[rojoracing53]

not another wall of words

I'm not even going to bother reading this road block and simply assume it's about technique or me picking on Cameron while on two wheels

[CycleCam303]

hooked on phonics biatch lol

[Thorgrim]

I'm new to the forum and this is just the second post I've read here, and already I am SO happy that the welcoming PM pointed me here. Thank you all!

To the OP, I had the same type revelations when I went from fast dirt riding, mostly on strip mine roads in the Appalachians, to motocross. The only thing I was doing right was cranking it in the straightaways, almost everything else I was doing was dead wrong as I quickly found out. Going back to the dirt riding, though, I was a much faster (when I wanted to ride like that) but more importantly SAFER rider than before. What the OP said about the advantage of a wider margin is dead on.

Also, thanks to the folks who participate in the MSF courses. Since I've been bikeless for the last 30 years, I thought it a good idea to take the beginner's course before I got on the road again and I was right (for a change). Again, I learned more in two days than I'd learned in 18 years of riding untutored.

[csmith12]

Well stick around Bob, this site is one of the few exceptions to the rule. There is some truly great info on this forum and we have some very active members that are not total goofballs. Although, as of late... we have seen some really strange threads come to pass. lol

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Well stick around Bob, this site is one of the few exceptions to the rule. There is some truly great info on this forum and we have some very active members that are not total goofballs. Although, as of late... we have seen some really strange threads come to pass. lol

Hell, the goofballs are a lot of the place's charm!

[rasta]

Not to pour on the lovefest here, but this forum (and others like it) really are amazing. We're so lucky to live in a time where we have the ability to pick the brains of more experienced riders from around the world. New riders 10 or 15 years ago didn't have that luxury, and were forced to listen to the whatever the local asshat had to say about motorcycling.