Let's Talk Handguns

[spooph]

although it's not really in our price range, try a 1911, or .45 ACP as well...

Definitely give a .357 revolver a try with .357 and .38.

I'm a fan of the Diamondback DB9. It's super thin, easy to conceal, cheap, no safeties and nearly indestructible. 9mm.

As a first gun, I'd think long and hard about a .22 pistol. People do say a .22 doesn't have enough power, but I disagree... Then again, most people say a 250 doesn't have enough power, but I disagree...

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by cadd

So much fail in so many ways.

As a police officer, you'd think he'll know the 4 cardinal rules of gun safety.

As a gun shop employee, what on earth were they thinking when they put a loaded magazine in a gun, in the display case?!

I've had a friend hand me a loaded gun thinking it was empty. I jacked the slide open and spit out the chambered round, landing on a glass table with a loud crack. He jumped. Imagine if I had let a round off!

He was ex-military also.

It's always loaded...

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by cadd

(SNIP)
Think about this for a moment. I have family members in the military. It's all fun and games when you're at the range slowly squeezing the trigger, concentrating on trigger control and your breathing while aiming at a motionless target. But my military friend told me to try to get my adrenaline pumping before my next magazine. Did a few burpees, push ups, etc.

I was shocked to see my grouping. All over the place!!! I'm just not skilled enough to handle a stressful situation like a home invasion, car jacking or bank robbery. I don't want to put an innocent person's life on the line if I miss.

This is the exact thing I point out all the time when talking about emergency braking.

Doing your complex emergency braking procedures in a parking lot, at will, is not the same as needing to do it when surprised, in a hurry, and under stress. Your ability to use your fine motor skills change when under the influence of adrenaline and confronted with fear. You may have poor control or even freeze if you react with panic.

That's why I say keep it simple.

[Alchemist]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I've had a friend hand me a loaded gun thinking it was empty. I jacked the slide open and spit out the chambered round, landing on a glass table with a loud crack. He jumped. Imagine if I had let a round off!

He was ex-military also.

It's always loaded...

It's also why I check every gun I pick up, even if I just set it down myself.

@cadd, your post reminds me of the adage about knife fights; what's the best way to win one? Run.

I like Glocks. But whatever you get, you need to be proficient with. Jkv's analogy about emergency braking is right on the money.

[flitecontrol]

Years ago, I had some would-be thieves kick in my front door very late one night while I was alone in the house and in deep sleep. Apparently, they did some tentative door kicking and shined a flashlight through the windows before trying the front door again. The sound roused me and I saw the lights, but was groggy. In my stupor, I assumed the kicking noise was thunder and the lights were from an electric power company truck come to restore power from the thunder storm. Then they kicked in the front door and I heard laughing. I thought to myself, "Why are the power company employees laughing, and why can I hear them so well?"

I got out of bed and stumbled down the hall just in time to see someone making a bee line for the TV in the dark living room. Adrenaline pulsed through my body like I'd never experienced, and I was instantly, fully, awake. I wanted to lay hands on this guy and pull him apart limb by limb. I can't adequately express how strong that urge was, but it was extremely powerful. The only thing that stopped me was I had zero clothes on, and figured that could put me at a disadvantage in a close-up fight. I briefly thought about going back to the bedroom closet, getting my shotgun and loading it before returning to the living room. I decided against that option. Instead, I asked him in a very convincing, loud voice if he wanted to get his butt shot off or get out of my house.

He said "Yes sir!" and made a rapid, empty handed retreat the way he came in. I ran to the door and saw two people running down the street in opposite directions. I thought I recognized the guy in my house, a neighborhood teenager with an extensive rap sheet. The sheriff's office came out with a K-9 unit and tracked one of them to the house next to the young criminal's house. A few days later, this kid was walking down the street in front of my house while I was in the front yard. I'd let my dog, Doc, out, and he was very friendly. He was headed for the kid in hopes the kid would pet him. I said "Come here, Doc.", and the kid button hooked and came straight to me.

I knew I had him then, and asked if he realized how close he'd come to dying the other night. He hung his head and nodded yes. I asked if the other kid with him was the other perpetrator I'd seen. He told me there were two different kids with him that night. When he left, I called the detective that was investigating the case and they came out and arrested him. He had just reached the age where he was considered an adult in Louisiana, and he went to the adult lockup, not juvenile detention. They also got the names of the two juveniles that were with him.

In retrospect, I'm glad there was no gunfire, but I wished I had a loaded gun in my hands when I first saw the burglar. I would have ordered him to eat carpet, called the sheriff, and held him until they arrived. If he had tried to get away, there's no doubt I'd have cut him in half with the shotgun. I may have later regretted killing him, but in Louisiana would have been well within my rights. Heck, the deputies that came out that night said I'd have done them and the community a favor if I had. Not sure of the psychological impact it would have had on me, but that was far from my mind that night.

The young man died a few months later running from the law when he lost control of a vehicle he'd stolen. He obviously didn't learn much from the above experience.

FYI, inside a house, there is no need to load a shotgun with buckshot. Buckshot, even number four, the smallest, will pass through many sheets of drywall and several of stucco, and that can injure or kill family members in other rooms. Bird shot is lethal at close range. Back when lead shot was legal for hunting waterfowl, I was floating a river and came upon a large eight point deer against a steep bank in the river that appeared wounded (he had bloody bubbles coming out his nose, usually a sign of a lung shot). To put him out of his misery, I shot him broadside from about 25 feet away with number six lead shot. The shot passed through the ribs on his left side, went through all the internal organs, including the heart and lungs, and lodged against the opposite side body cavity. The shot spread was about 10-12 inches, and the effect was devastating. He made one small jump and dropped dead. Only later did I find that his wounds were from a pack of dogs, and they weren't life threatening.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by spooph

Definitely give a .357 revolver a try with .357 and .38.

Back when I was working, we carried K frame stainless S&W 357 revolvers. The rounds were .38 +P+ law enforcement rounds, which means it had quite a bit more power than regular .38 rounds. A fellow officer shot those rounds through his personal .38, and wound up damaging it as a result. I never had to shoot a human, (thankfully) but killed quite a few beavers and some smaller critters with it. The .38 round would have made anyone shot with it very uncomfortable!

In thousands of rounds shot through revolvers, I never had a jam or misfire. I can't say that for the 9mm pistol I carried for a few years.

[cadd]

Originally Posted by spooph

As a first gun, I'd think long and hard about a .22 pistol. People do say a .22 doesn't have enough power, but I disagree... Then again, most people say a 250 doesn't have enough power, but I disagree...

I completely agree. I have a Ruger SR22. It's a double/single action semi auto pistol. Rim fire (so dry firing isn't encouraged). Extremely light. Extremely small and thin. Cones with 2 sizes for grip. And very easy to shoot without any (much) recoil. Ammo is dirt cheap compared to other calibers. And I'm a better shot with it than my glock. Maybe that's because I much 3x more rounds down range compared to my other firearms (thanks to affordable ammo).

Field stripping it for cleaning is easy as well (same can be said about Glocks). It's a joy to shoot.

[cadd]

Not to go off topic, do you right handed shooters have a "low-left" issue?

I've improved tremendously, but still have a slight problem with low left.

I use snap caps in the range. When I load my magazines, I scatter 4 or 5 snap caps on the table and load the magazine without looking. This way, when I fire, I can see if I "flinch" and anticipate the recoil when the dud is in the chamber. Besides, it's a nice little practice to simulate a stove pipe or a jam...forcing me to clear the gun instinctively w/o thinking about it much.

For those of you who had a low left issue and found a solution, care to share your method?

[Jono]

Lots of good info and conversations here. Thanks everybody. Seems like a couple more trips to the range are in my future before deciding on which gun to buy. I'll see if they have a few Glocks that I can rent and whatever else they can recommend to shoot.

[Alchemist]

Originally Posted by cadd

Not to go off topic, do you right handed shooters have a "low-left" issue?

I've improved tremendously, but still have a slight problem with low left.

I use snap caps in the range. When I load my magazines, I scatter 4 or 5 snap caps on the table and load the magazine without looking. This way, when I fire, I can see if I "flinch" and anticipate the recoil when the dud is in the chamber. Besides, it's a nice little practice to simulate a stove pipe or a jam...forcing me to clear the gun instinctively w/o thinking about it much.

For those of you who had a low left issue and found a solution, care to share your method?

Not low-left specific, but for flinching in general, dryfire, dryfire, dryfire. For the heavier recoiling arms, dryfire until it all goes away, then keep going until the way you shoot with no round chambered dominates your habit.

Saturday I had this issue with a rifle and I probably dryfired 10-20 times for each round fired.

The snap caps are a great idea as well; they show you what you do when you stop paying attention. If feasible load with more of them than live, or have a friend single load mags, randomly deciding whether you get snap cap or live round.

Also... If you're hitting low, focus on your grip, specifically middle and ring fingers. Added pressure there can pull the barrel down (depends on your grip, the firearm, and some other things). Just something to look at.

[cadd]

Anyone interested in incorporating a show & tell? I'm always intrigued to know why you choose to own a particular model.

If it's against the rules of this forum (pictures of guns), please let me know and I'll take them down.

Glock 19 Gen4



Ruger SR22 (.22 pistol), Glock 19 pistol, Ruger 10/22 take-down rifle, and 2 mysterious rifles.



9mm vs 22LR size difference.

[cadd]

Originally Posted by adouglas

The one thing I can do without thinking, that I've done literally 20,000 times... I failed to do.

And for those of us who aren't military or Leo, we always have our eyes and ears on at the range.

I'm pretty sure I'll be discombobulated after the first round. A small bedroom with 4 walls, no ear protection. I'm sure my ears will be ringing. And if I'm in my pitch black bedroom (which I would love to be in....I know my way around my room, he doesn't), the muzzle flash may hinder my "night vision" after that first round.

So....there goes two of my senses immediately after that first round.

[flitecontrol]

When I was in law enforcement, we always wore ear and eye protection at the range. At the time, I was carrying a 9mm pistol that I had fired several times without ear protection. One day I wasn't carrying and needed to dispatch an injured deer. I borrowed a .357, which I had never fired before, from a guy with another agency. When the gun went off, I wasn't sure who had been hurt worse, the deer or me! This was outside, and that round in the relatively short barreled revolver was deafening!

Had it been a life or death situation, I doubt the noise would have been much of a factor. Adrenaline would help keep you focused on the threat.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by cadd

Not to go off topic, do you right handed shooters have a "low-left" issue?

For those of you who had a low left issue and found a solution, care to share your method?

Typically, I would say that's caused by squeezing your grip as you are squeezing the trigger or flinching/snatching the shot.

The grip needs to be consistent, with pressure on the front and back of the grip only. Finger tips should not be pressing on the grips.

Trigger should be placed in the center of the finger, and always moved directly to the rear. Any side motion during trigger release will direct the shot off target. Get your hand up into the grip as far as possible, and be sure to have your wrist straight and in-line with the gun (not turned to one side or the other).

Dry-firing will help you. Better is shooting airguns. You can't get away with anything when shooting an airgun, and you can see any issues much easier because they are not covered by recoil.

[csmith12]

I am ready!

[Panda]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Dry-firing will help you. Better is shooting airguns. You can't get away with anything when shooting an airgun, and you can see any issues much easier because they are not covered by recoil.

I prefer .22s to airguns to diagnose and correct a flinch. Mostly b/c most airguns I've shot have terrible triggers.

[monjorrow]

Originally Posted by Panda

I prefer .22s to airguns to diagnose and correct a flinch. Mostly b/c most airguns I've shot have terrible triggers.

Thats the best part. If you go buy a cheap co2 bb gun with a horrible trigger, and learn to shoot it well you will be able to shoot almost any real firearm well.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by cadd

For those of you who had a low left issue and found a solution, care to share your method?

For me, the solution was in my grip. My hands were rotated too far to the right of the handgrip, causing too much of my trigger finger to lie over the trigger (also making it uncomfortable to just move the finger out so that I was only squeezing the trigger with the pad of my index finger). Make sure you grip then pistol in such a way that the backstrap rests right in the meat of the space between the thumb and index finger. When gripped correctly, your thumbs should not be used to steady the gun at all, but should be able to move "freely" so as to be able to operate the controls (safety, slide/mag release, etc.) and the pad of your index finger should fall comfortably over the trigger. In addition to helping me with my "low-left" problem, this also made it much more comfortable to shoot since it slightly lowered the bore axis compared to how I used to shoot, reducing muzzle flip; you should watch out for the occasional instance of slide bite, though.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

For me, the solution was in my grip. My hands were rotated too far to the right of the handgrip, causing too much of my trigger finger to lie over the trigger. Make sure you grip then pistol in such a way that the backstrap rests right in the meat of the space between the thumb and index finger.

This.

Thing is, the "backstrap in the space between thumb and index" advice, which is often heard and totally valid, leaves room for interpretation. You can rotate the gun quite a bit in either direction while still obeying that advice. I had thought I was doing it right, but later found that rotating as described above (i.e. pointing the muzzle more to the left relative to your hand, when seen from above) worked very well.

Try putting the centerline of the backstrap next to, not on, the fleshy part of your palm. In the crease where your lifeline is.

Your thumb should be able to operate the mag release without moving your hand.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Panda

I prefer .22s to airguns to diagnose and correct a flinch. Mostly b/c most airguns I've shot have terrible triggers.

You should try an Olympic-level 10M airgun like a Steyr or Feinwerkbau some time.

You won't believe the trigger. Most Morini airguns use an electronic trigger, which has a completely different feel - some like it some don't.

Trigger weight is 500 grams - which ain't much. Really though, a terrible trigger just makes you work harder to get a good shot, but you still should be able to see your mistakes better without the recoil of a firearm.

Some airguns even have recoil-absorbers, which make even the slightest movement obvious when you release the trigger.

My .45 competition scores improved after I started shooting 10M air pistol.

[Panda]

I don't know if practicing with a known terrible trigger is a great advice since you have to "work harder". You could also be working to correct flaws that a decent trigger won't have.

As I said before the triggers I've used on airguns...I haven't spent any time around ~1500+ airguns so I don't know what those triggers feel like.

[adouglas]

I was a competitive smallbore rifle shooter in my youth. Still have the rifle... Olympic quality.

The trigger is not to be believed. Think and it goes.

I've also shot smallbore pistol. Ditto.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by cadd

Not to go off topic, do you right handed shooters have a "low-left" issue?

I do! Everything else everybody said, +:

I found it very helpful to retrain myself to isolate my trigger finger. I used to squeeze the trigger by compressing my index finger to the thumb web, which caused the entire hand to tighten up and threw off my aim, even though I didn't jump with snap caps.

Surprisingly, the revolver helped a lot with this. Put 6 snapcaps in and practiced pulling back with just the trigger finger. So, forearm, wrist and all 4 fingers locked, with just the trigger finger pulling back.

I don't know how else to explain it. Hope this helps.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Panda

I don't know if practicing with a known terrible trigger is a great advice since you have to "work harder". You could also be working to correct flaws that a decent trigger won't have.

As I said before the triggers I've used on airguns...I haven't spent any time around ~1500+ airguns so I don't know what those triggers feel like.

An airgun with a poor trigger will still tell you more about what you are doing as the shot breaks than a firearm. Each gun, of any type, has its own trigger characteristics - so you need to be able to adapt.

Butter...

[subxero]

you want to work on flinch, practice with a flintlock muzzle loader

that will teach you discipline real quick

For @cadd

here is link to older gun thread that has some pictures in it from some members
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...highlight=guns

[greenaero]

great thread! I don't shoot much now but I have several handguns: Ruger MarkI .22 semi-auto, Ruger SP101 .357 revolver and a Colt 1991 A1 .45 semi-auto. I also have 2 .177 cal. airguns and a .44 cal. black powder cap and ball revolver ( 1860 Colt Navy ). Great fun to shoot!!!

The right of law-abiding citizens to own firearms in my opinion is one of our most valuable rights granted by our constitution. Taking guns away from honest people just makes them vulnerable to the criminals and to an over-reaching government.

[subxero]

I sold my CZ75b the other day, awesome gun but I just didn't see a reason to keep it laying around. It was primarily my target/range gun and I don't have a whole lot of money to waste right now slinging lead at the range. Obviously didn't get a ton for it but the money will be well spent else where

[Rifleman]

I'm going to go very far afield here but one of the things you can do to work on trigger pull is make wax loads.

with straight cases (.38/.357 - 9mm - .44 Mag - .45ACP) simply replace the primer in a spent cartridge (can be done with minimal reloading equipment) and then melt wax in a pie pan until you have about 3/4 to an inch thick. Push the case into the wax so that a plug of wax is cut and inside the case.

now you can fire single rounds in a basement or garage into a backstop of a cardboard box with a phone book inside. The wax won't ricochet, penetrate, or be a problem and the noise is about that of clapping your hands. Inside a closed garage or basement, should barely be able to be heard.

this allows you to practice with your weapon, your trigger, your sights, exactly as you would fire it, for about $0.02 a round or less.

it will not operate slides or actions so for automatics you must load a single round at a time (practice your reload skills too, drop an empty mag, slap the new one home, with out looking or getting things messed up.)

[Ghostt]

I'm old school, got to go with 45ACP COMMANDER, OR OFFICERS styles, I had a LLAMA for a few years that was surprisingly good, it was a commander with double stack clips. If your a Glock person then model 36

In a wheel gun, 357 magnum, I had a Ruger GP100 4" stainless, I loved that gun.

Keep in mind this is my personal choice for defense proposes.

For just putting holes in things/target shooting back before the 22 LR madness, the Ruger 22 pistol in the Government Model configuration, or the timeless classic 10/22 rifle. I'm old, so I remember paying less than $10 for a brick of 22s and yes it was 500 rounds.

I've had a lot of guns over the years, and it really depends on the intended use of said gun is going to be determines the type.

My current carry is a Springfield 1911 full size, I got a awesome deal on it.

[Rifleman]

an amazing follow up to my "wax bullet" post above.

1. the cowboy shooting association offers a kit with precast .45 cal bullets made of wax and polymer.

2. case primer pockets are drilled out to the point the primers fall in and out.


ok, not so happy about the primer pocket being totally drilled. If I were to do it I'd drill them half way or something so that you still have a little "bite" on that primer when seated. Besides you can't drill them through, there must be a bottom to the pocket for the 'anvil' part of the primer to seat against. But you could clean that pocket up until it was just a tiny friction fit and could be popped out with just the de-priming rod and your hand, no press needed.

and holy crap, this guy is using foam ear plugs... and REUSING them.

this is my new .44 mag practice in the basement set up.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[dcj13]

Pretty cool! And clever.

Good idea to use the foamy earplug several times. Wouldn't be cool to use them as ear plugs after using them as a bullet, though...

Much better than using the hard plastic bullets with primers-only like we did 30+ years ago.

[Jono]

I ended up getting a Springfield XDS 9mm last month. They had a great promotion going on where you got an additional 3 magazines and magazine holder with the purchase of a single stack gun. It was the best bang for the buck too!

Took the TN Hangdun carry class today so I am one step closer to being able to carry. Need to work on my trigger pulls. Ordered some snap caps today to practice dry firing. I saw there were some good tips for this in the previous posts.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by cadd

Not to go off topic, do you right handed shooters have a "low-left" issue?

I've improved tremendously, but still have a slight problem with low left.

I use snap caps in the range. When I load my magazines, I scatter 4 or 5 snap caps on the table and load the magazine without looking. This way, when I fire, I can see if I "flinch" and anticipate the recoil when the dud is in the chamber. Besides, it's a nice little practice to simulate a stove pipe or a jam...forcing me to clear the gun instinctively w/o thinking about it much.

For those of you who had a low left issue and found a solution, care to share your method?

Low left is very common with Glock shooters.

Practice trigger control. Do tons of dry firing drills. Balance a coin on the slide and pull the trigger without the coin falling off.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by Panda

I prefer .22s to airguns to diagnose and correct a flinch. Mostly b/c most airguns I've shot have terrible triggers.

You are shooting the wrong airguns.

These have very nice triggers:

[Racer x]

The trigger on an airgun MUST be really good. If not then you will not have accuracy no matter what the rest is like.

What ever you end up with there is a replica in air soft. the gun will be an exact copy. Weight and trigger will be very close . The newest training all use air soft.

But for carry piece. I have carried them all. I have an officers .45 ACP. Bit tho one gun I wish I still had is a Walther PPK. Just like James Bond

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by VaFish

Anschutz AR for the win.

Our junior club has 6 of them. Great guns.

For air pistols, we are using junior versions of the Steyr LP-10s - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_LP_10.

If you can shoot either one of those guns accurately - you can shoot anything.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Anschutz AR for the win.

Our junior club has 6 of them. Great guns.

For air pistols, we are using junior versions of the Steyr LP-10s - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_LP_10.

If you can shoot either one of those guns accurately - you can shoot anything.

Our club guns are FWB P70 and P700 we have about a dozen of them.

We just built a new 25 point air gun range.

[Racer x]

I sold all my powder burners to race . Except the Colt45ACP. But I love airguns.

I shoot almost everyday.
I am going to the US Field target nationals this year. I shoot a tuned TX200mk3

[Rifleman]

picked up a Ruger SR22 yesterday. nice .22LR with a bit of real weapon size to it.
all my other .22's are tiny little things.

[Racer x]

My wife has a Smith and Wesson 2206. It is a really nice piece. If I was to get a 22 pistol I've always wanted a Smith and Wesson model 41