Close call at a stop light

[kdogg2077]

So I was out on my bike enjoying the last nice day we are supposed to have in western PA. I was actually in Altoona PA driving past their Walmart. I was probably going about 30mph. Lots of shops and traffic. I come up to the first of 3 stop lights. The light is green but turns yellow and I'm neither under it nor that close so I brake somewhat hard to stop in time. I try not to run yellow lights on my bike. As I said, I broke pretty hard but no enough to lose traction at any point. I come to a stop when, just to my left, a car comes swerving past me with tires squealing. Totally runs the, now red, light and keeps going.

So basically I was almost rear ended and could totally be in the ER or worse right now. Quite the day. A driver stopped to ask if I was OK.

What should I take from this experience? For myself, I think I braked harder than I needed to. But again, I kept the bike under control at all times so it's not like I just panicked. Should i be more aggressive with a yellow light? Perhaps car drivers are expecting me to accelerate on a yellow?

As for the woman behind me. I assume she wasn't paying attention, perhaps following me too close and was definitely going too fast. That area is a shopping center packed with lights and traffic. No reason to be going so fast you can't stop immediately there. She knew there were lights coming up. W T F!!!

[flitecontrol]

Glad you are ok.

As you probably already know, riders are ultimately responsible for their own safety, whether they have the right-of-way or not. In that situation, the rider needs to know how close the car behind is and make a judgment call as to whether or not they can stop in time if the riders stops. Bikes generally can stop much quicker than cages, and this needs to be considered as well.

Sometimes it's a better choice to push the yellow than it is to stop quickly and hope that the cage behind will be able to do the same without hitting the bike.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

............ What should I take from this experience? For myself, I think I braked harder than I needed to. But again, I kept the bike under control at all times so it's not like I just panicked. Should i be more aggressive with a yellow light? Perhaps car drivers are expecting me to accelerate on a yellow?............

Way before you arrive to any regulated intersection, you must know your surrounding situation and have one or more escape plans.

One car following you makes running a yellow a must: risking a traffic ticket is the best alternative in this case.
Avoid running a red light, though.

Please, read these:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127127

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110975

[Hero Danny]

I run reds all the time lol. I don't trust my brakes.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I run reds all the time lol. I don't trust my brakes.

[LittleRedNinjette]

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

What should I take from this experience? For myself, I think I braked harder than I needed to. But again, I kept the bike under control at all times so it's not like I just panicked. Should i be more aggressive with a yellow light? Perhaps car drivers are expecting me to accelerate on a yellow?
:

Checking your rear view mirror when you apply the brakes should be as automatic as as looking left or right when changing lanes.

knowing what is behind you when slowing down is just as important as what is in front of you when speeding up.

as your fingers come up on the front brake, a quick look in the rear view just to see if someone is right on your azz.

do it, every time, make it a habit.

if all you can see in your rear view is a chrome bull dog sitting on your pillion seat... get off that brake and pin the throttle.

[zhuuka]

Check mirrors when coming to a stop. Roll off the throttle a little as you approach each intersection so if you need to make emergency maneuvers and stop quick? You won't lock your rear. Those traffic light demons have a mind of their own. If you are stopped comfortably at a light, keep an eye on that mirror to see approaching cars. Stay in first to prepare for bailing.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by subxero

wtf

Originally Posted by LittleRedNinjette

Lol, it was a joke people.

[LittleRedNinjette]

I was hoping so.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

Lol, it was a joke people.

was it?..... was it?

on a side note, did you seriously down vote me just because I down voted you

[kdogg2077]

So everyone agrees that if approaching a yellow it's best to just go? I suppose that makes sense. Better chance of being rear ended than being tagged in the intersection. I thought I was being extra cautious but maybe I opened myself to new problems.

Checking my mirrors when braking hmm. That habit may take time to form. Scanning what is in front of you and then braking properly takes a fair amount of concentration itself. Especially when you're making a quick decision to brake.

[xSean13]

Originally Posted by zhuuka

Check mirrors when coming to a stop. Roll off the throttle a little as you approach each intersection so if you need to make emergency maneuvers and stop quick? You won't lock your rear. Those traffic light demons have a mind of their own. If you are stopped comfortably at a light, keep an eye on that mirror to see approaching cars. Stay in first to prepare for bailing.

This. I also flash my brake light 3-4 times when I see cars approaching behind me, especially at night, since it's probably pretty easy for me and my light to blend into the car in front for someone not fully alert.

[subxero]

^ +1
when in any sort of busy area, traffic lights ect... I manually pulse my brake lights as I come to a stop. Obviously in a rapid stop situation that is going to be more difficult but like others have said, if I'm on the bike and it goes yellow and it is going to be close, I'm going for it and looking for the safest path through the intersection which gives me the best buffering from potential hazards.

[Worldtraveller]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

So everyone agrees that if approaching a yellow it's best to just go?

No. Re-read the responses. You need to practice what you say below. Yes, it takes time to learn. It's something you need to practice all the time though. Most of the time, it's not an issue, you just check your mirrors and brake normally.

Checking my mirrors when braking hmm. That habit may take time to form. Scanning what is in front of you and then braking properly takes a fair amount of concentration itself. Especially when you're making a quick decision to brake.

Yep, that's why you do it every time, so all those times that it isn't an 'emergency' or doesn't really require a quick decision, you've trained your brain and reflexes to be alert. It's worth it.

I've been nearly rear ended in my RAV4 by a Corvette in a similar situation. I know for a fact the 'vette can out brake my RAV. The vette driver either decided to run the light, or wasn't paying attention. Of course, I woulda been just as happy if he actually rear ended me, but not so much on the motorcycle.....

[LittleRedNinjette]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

So everyone agrees that if approaching a yellow it's best to just go? I suppose that makes sense. Better chance of being rear ended than being tagged in the intersection. I thought I was being extra cautious but maybe I opened myself to new problems.

This will be a case by case thing. I've blown through my share of yellows if i felt it was safer than stopping given the traffic conditions. Its a judgment call.

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

Checking my mirrors when braking hmm. That habit may take time to form. Scanning what is in front of you and then braking properly takes a fair amount of concentration itself. Especially when you're making a quick decision to brake.

You have to have eyes everywhere. I ALWAYS keep an eye on what's behind me when stopping and once stopped. Flashing my brakes once stopped too helps.

[Rifleman]

Checking your rear when braking is an "every time" thing. not just in emergency stops. just like head checks are an "every time I change lanes or turn" thing. It's not only looking behind you... it's just checking to see if someone behind you isn't paying attention. Know your situation. Is there a full on semi or van full of goobers right behind you, or is there some breathing room.

99.9% of the time it's all good, just like 99.9% of the time a lane change or turn is all good... it's that 0.01% where you look over your shoulder and see someone else merging right on top of you where you say... da-myn ... glad i looked.

you are 500 feet from the stop light, you are rolling off the throttle and fingers are reaching up for the front lever...

your eyes glance into the rear view and see that it's clear for 1000 feet behind you. If you need to womp on the front brake... you are good to go...

you glance in the rear view and see a van 50 feet behind full of teenagers throwing fries at each other...

adjust your response to the yellow light accordingly. Remember horns work in all directions as well.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

........Checking my mirrors when braking hmm. That habit may take time to form. Scanning what is in front of you and then braking properly takes a fair amount of concentration itself. Especially when you're making a quick decision to brake.

Forming good defensive habits may take long, but you are forming bad habits whenever you are not purposely repeating the good ones.

Caveat: Don't fall to sleep observing what is behind you and arriving to conclusions: you just take a quick shot and return your eyes to the front, only then you mentally analyze that mental picture and decide how potentially dangerous a situation is.

I even have time to see if the driver following me looks distracted or attentive.
It is all about how early are you planning your crossing of the intersection and how little deceleration you can force the follower to do.
There is no much a cager can do to brake as quickly as your bike: cars are heavy, trucks are even heavier, loaded trucks can barely stop.

With enough parking lot's practice, you should be able to brake safely using zero concentration on that.
If the control inputs are using too many neurons, you are in danger: traffic should take 100% of your attention, while you control your bike as instinctively as you control your muscles for breathing.

[Worldtraveller]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Forming good defensive habits may take long, but you are forming bad habits whenever you are not purposely repeating the good ones.

This needs to go in the quote of the day/week/month thread that we don't have here...

[kdogg2077]

Well I'll have all winter to think this thread and what happened over. Crazy that this nearly happened on my last real ride of the season.

[Worldtraveller]

Originally Posted by Motofool

There is no much a cager can do to brake as quickly as your bike: cars are heavy, trucks are even heavier, loaded trucks can barely stop.

Physics would disagree with you.

Weight is almost a non-issue when it comes to stopping.

There isn't a brake in the world, and any (moderately well maintained) vehicle, that can't lock up the wheels.

The only physical variable that effects the stopping of an object is the coefficient of friction with the surface. (Mass cancels out.)

While that is idealized, reality is pretty damn close to the ideal physics in this case.

The takeaway here is: don't let this kind of thinking lure you into thinking you can follow close to a car because you think you can stop faster.

[asdfman]

My take on yellow lights is if I have to brake hard to stop (from a reasonable speed), I probably would have been better off going through it. In the time it takes to stop, I usually would have made the yellow if I had gone through it instead. Of course, definitely keep an eye out for left-turning cars because they're trying to get out of the intersection as soon as the yellow light comes on.

[Ducati999]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Forming good defensive habits may take long, but you are forming bad habits whenever you are not purposely repeating the good ones.

Caveat: Don't fall to sleep observing what is behind you and arriving to conclusions: you just take a quick shot and return your eyes to the front, only then you mentally analyze that mental picture and decide how potentially dangerous a situation is.

I even have time to see if the driver following me looks distracted or attentive.
It is all about how early are you planning your crossing of the intersection and how little deceleration you can force the follower to do.
There is no much a cager can do to brake as quickly as your bike: cars are heavy, trucks are even heavier, loaded trucks can barely stop.

With enough parking lot's practice, you should be able to brake safely using zero concentration on that.
If the control inputs are using too many neurons, you are in danger: traffic should take 100% of your attention, while you control your bike as instinctively as you control your muscles for breathing.

I would like to requote this post many time and explain what I find important about what MOTOFOOL said here.

First: Great quote of--- Forming good defensive habits may take long, but you are forming bad habits whenever you are not purposely repeating the good ones!----deserves an award---could not be said better!

Second: Its all about how early you are planning your crossing of the intersection--- You should be highly aware of all moving traffic at or near the intersection long before you get there. You should be looking as far ahead as possible and tracking/predicting all possible dangers. Anytime you are riding you need to be aware of all of the traffic around you including what is behind you and how far back they are and if they are moving faster than you. I am not certain but it sound like you only check who/what is following you occasionally and you should be checking every few seconds (head on a swivel at all times). The more you check what is going on around you the less chance you have to get "comfortable" and let your guard down. There will be no suprises if you constantly look all around you. Once you start watching what is behind you as much as what is in front of you the decision to stop at yellow lights or not becomes apparent. You will have the big picture of all the traffic moving and can better decide if stopping or running the light will be safe or not.
Third: (strictly my opinion) With the light weight of bikes and good brake power they have we tend to stop rather quickly in a short distance. Add to this the fact that since you may have waited a little late to apply the brakes the car behind you may assume (their fault) that you intend to run the yellow (add possible experience they may have seen many riders run yellows) and you can understand why they may not be prepared to stop.

I have had many such close calls in my riding life and every one of them has taught me to be more observant of everything around me when I am on my bike. I pulse my brake light when stopped and try (when not boxed in) to have an escape planned but your only true safety zone is whats in your head and how you process all the information. Glad you were not hit and can learn from this near miss. Just try to make the best and safest decision based on what you see and what you have learned.