November 23rd, 2014, 07:45 PM | #1 |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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Questions about quick flick for fast cornering
I need the help of the experienced members who race or are simply fast in a track bike.
As many may know, rather than a racer or a persistent track-day rider, I am an old street motorcyclist with the priority of safety and survival. The quick flick technique is one that I use and practice in order to have a better survival chance in traffic situations. It has saved me more than once. Just like hanging off, this is a riding technique described in "ATOTW2". Nevertheless, it seems that only Keith Code, his school couches and our @Misti insist upon its importance for riding well. Copied from http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=109 "Can you steer your bike as quickly as you can a car? What does quick turning your bike have to do with your safety? How quick can it be done? Where can you practice it? Let's take up question number one first. Can you steer your bike as fast as your car? If your answer is "no", my next questions are: What business do you have riding in traffic with cars that can out-maneuver you?, and, Ain't that dangerous? The answers, not pleasant ones to swallow, are: none and yes. You lose. ............ Take a moment to evaluate how quickly you are willing to turn your bike. If there were a scale from 1 to 10, where would you be. After twenty years of intense observation, I place the average motorcycle rider at around 4 on that scale. Is fear of falling a reason? Yes. Not practiced at the art of quick turns? Yes. Very few ever take the time to hone their skill up to the standard of effectiveness needed for the street." - Keith Code If this is such a good technique for fast cornering, why is seldom discussed in forums or shown in videos? One can find hundreds of opinions, advise and videos about body position and knee dragging but hardly a handful about straighten and speeding a turn by using this technique. Even videos posted by fast riders show slow and/or premature flicking on dry pavement, ....... leave alone attempting it in rainy conditions. I would love to hear from the fast track riders and racers about this phenomenon. Is this because the technique is simply not understood/appreciated/used among fast riders? May it be that turning flicking-in close to the outside curb would open the inside of the turns for other racers to pass? As many attend track days to become safer street riders, is this technique taught and practiced by Novice and Intermediate groups in track-days and schools other than California Superbike School? Does any Ninjette member use it? How proficient are you?
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November 23rd, 2014, 07:58 PM | #2 |
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Considering how motocops don't die nearly as often as bikers who aren't motocops, I think they probably undergo some sort of formal training with this technique if it's actually effective.
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November 24th, 2014, 06:04 AM | #3 |
Cat herder
Name: Gort
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Wow. That's a LOT of traffic cones.
Hernan, good topic. As a long-time street rider and budding track junkie, this is something that's high up on my skills-to-practice list. I struggle a bit with it... reason being the same as any skill envelope expansion. I don't know what to look for, or what signals will tell me I'm getting too close to the limit. This causes me to be timid, because I don't want to chuck my bike (and my brittle old body) on the ground. This probably comes down to the good old trust issue. How hard can you lean on your bike before it'll give way? There's also the assessment issue that comes with any skills development. What does "good" feel like? Hard to tell sometimes. Maybe I'm doing it right and don't even know it.
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November 24th, 2014, 06:16 AM | #4 |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Excellent thread
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November 24th, 2014, 06:39 AM | #5 |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
Location: Athens, GA
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It was Lee Parks in Total Control who said it's nearly physically impossible for a rider to push the bars so hard, so fast as to push the bike over. A quick flick leaves you leaned and vulnerable the least amount of time. It works nicely with a delayed apex line as well which opens your sight distance up before you initiate the quick turn.
I'm not fast, so I'll leave the racing/track questions for someone else.
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November 24th, 2014, 06:44 AM | #6 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Philip
Location: Yuma, Az
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Does anyone have links or videos to demonstrate. A whole bunch of retirees/snowbirds in giant buicks make fast reactions a necessity here.
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November 24th, 2014, 06:45 AM | #7 |
Cat herder
Name: Gort
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Paging @Misti....
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November 24th, 2014, 07:05 AM | #8 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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I got some info on this but it will take me a bit to put together.
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November 24th, 2014, 07:07 AM | #9 |
Track Clown
Name: Chris
Location: Kingman, AZ
Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): '08 250R, 21 MV F3 800, Kawasaki 400 build Posts: A lot.
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I got a ticket for practicing quick swerves/turns. The HP said it looked unsafe. I told him it was unsafe to not develop this skill.
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November 24th, 2014, 08:15 AM | #10 | |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
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Quote:
was this in an empty parking lot? because my older brother fought something similar and won ages ago, though that was control over a motorized vehicle in inclement weather. He was having fun using the ice covered lot as a skidpad and argued that he was attempting to learn how to properly react to an icy situation in an effort to be safer on the roads.
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November 24th, 2014, 08:24 AM | #11 | ||||
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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Quote:
Quote:
For example; In the below video from a year ago, on my second pass... I quick flick at pace at the top of the hill. I push so hard that the front starts to chatter. Also notice how FAST the bike flops down compared to the first pass without chatter in that spot. I feel it as a vibration in the bars. Sometimes, it's a rumbling vibration, other times it's an outright jackhammer. Since it was my own riding, it took me a long time to figure out what was going on here. Honestly, I was overthinking it and since it didn't happen every lap I knew it was me causing the issue. Can you tell what it is? Hint: Listen instead of look.
Link to original page on YouTube. Quote:
Can you quick flick on; Cold tires/pavement? Wet or a loose surface? Tires that are not scrubbed in/worn out? While hard on the brakes? ect.. ect.. Quote:
Is the bike happy? Did you hit your line? Did you have good throttle control? Is the rider happy? Can you repeat it again the next lap around? If so, then your on your way. Next would be are you efficient at it? Your bars pivot around the stem parallel to the road. How efficient are you with your arms? Which method of steering will result with the most effective steering with the least amount of effort? Directly over the bars Angled to the bars In line with the bars and road And... what does pivot steering have to do with efficiency?
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School Last futzed with by csmith12; November 24th, 2014 at 11:23 AM. |
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November 24th, 2014, 08:34 AM | #12 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jesse
Location: Maryville, TN
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ugly 89 frankenstien special ex250, and the "Zooks" : 1982 GS450 and 1979 GS1000 Posts: 327
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Good topic interested to hear what everyone has to say. I'll be
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November 24th, 2014, 09:07 AM | #13 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
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quick flick lane change has saved me in traffic more times than i can remember.
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November 24th, 2014, 09:11 AM | #14 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
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i have bent a clipon bar turning in too hard. as you go faster it takes more force so trying to do a quick turn going fast takes a lot of force... make sure you have good bars and not a ****** 22ga piece of tube that just happened to fit.
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November 24th, 2014, 09:30 AM | #15 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
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I just wish I had the same level of confidence when quick flicking all the way down to knee dragging but I'll get there.
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November 24th, 2014, 09:32 AM | #16 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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You should never get anywhere near the steering stops while on the track. Even for the sharpest of corners. If you hit a steering stop while on track, it's most likely because you're crashing.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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November 24th, 2014, 09:33 AM | #17 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
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that's good to know, especially considering that my steering stop is my tank.
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November 24th, 2014, 09:37 AM | #18 | |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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Quote:
You don't quickflick until knee down, you steer/flick only enough to set your line. If that also happens to put your knee down also, then so be it.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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November 24th, 2014, 09:41 AM | #19 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
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i've hit steering lock on really really small courses (cone courses) but never faster than like 20mph. there's nothing bad about going full lock. it just means if you want to pick up you need to add gas.
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November 24th, 2014, 10:49 AM | #20 | |
Track Clown
Name: Chris
Location: Kingman, AZ
Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): '08 250R, 21 MV F3 800, Kawasaki 400 build Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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November 24th, 2014, 01:07 PM | #21 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): currently: Yamaha YZF 250 dirt/motard Posts: 787
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Quote:
I'll see if I can answer some of our questions and keep the discussion rolling. You ask, "If this is such a good technique for fast cornering, why is seldom discussed in forums or shown in videos?" I honestly think that people take the concept of quick turning or even just "turning" the bike a little bit for granted. They approach a turn, they turn the bike, they get where they want to go with little thought on how quickly they got it all done. When I work with my students, very rarely have they given conscious thought to how fast they are steering the bike. Until we break it down for them and show them how they can get the bike turned faster with less effort, and until they actually FEEL the positive results of this technique, they don't really realize they aren't turning the bike quickly. You asked, "Is this because the technique is simply not understood/appreciated/used among fast riders?" and that is kind of what I was trying to explain above ^^. Many fast riders haven't given conscious thought to how fast they are turning the bike, they just get it done. I know I was like that pre-Superbike School coaching... I was pretty fast and I just rode, I didn't know how to break it down further than that. I think if more people took a look at the technique of quick turning they could make big improvements in their lap times. You also said, "May it be that turning flicking-in close to the outside curb would open the inside of the turns for other racers to pass?" This can be true for some corners, instead of taking a wide approach and slamming the bike into the turn, a racer may take a more defensive line, trail the brakes in and turn the bike a little slower... but you can still work on the technique of quick-turning and getting it to the lean angle you want quicker, every time. "Does any Ninjette member use it?" I DO! "How proficient are you?" I think I do ok Let me ask a few more questions. What are the main benefits of getting the bike turned quickly? What kinds of things can you accomplish sooner when the bike is leaned over faster? Why do it?
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November 24th, 2014, 01:25 PM | #22 | |
Ninja chick
Name: Allyson
Location: Athens, GA
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Quote:
The sooner you can turn the bike, the sooner and harder you can get back on the gas, right?
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Sometimes it's the journey that teaches you a lot about your destination. ~Drake Check out my Appalachian Trail journal, 2015! Postwhores are COOL! ~Allyson |
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November 24th, 2014, 01:30 PM | #23 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Fish
Location: co
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Quote:
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November 24th, 2014, 01:42 PM | #24 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jesse
Location: Maryville, TN
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ugly 89 frankenstien special ex250, and the "Zooks" : 1982 GS450 and 1979 GS1000 Posts: 327
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I remember an exercise we did in the MSF where you approached the instructor and at the last second they signal you to turn left or right. No idea what they called it but that really drove home just how quick you can lay a bike into a turn for me.
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November 24th, 2014, 02:03 PM | #25 | |
sammich maker
Name: snot
Location: West Ohio - in the kitchen
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Quote:
This is a skill I really want to learn. |
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November 24th, 2014, 02:10 PM | #26 |
.
Name: .
Location: .
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Seriously. Even though every motocop I've ever met has been a complete prick, I still admire their skill and would love to have the maneuverability they have.
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November 24th, 2014, 02:53 PM | #27 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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November 24th, 2014, 03:00 PM | #29 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
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I need to find a motocop to talk to that about, I know there are a few in the city but they mostly do parade type stuff. Last time I talked to one I joked that they should have at least one zx10r as a pursuit unit instead of using their harleys that can't be turned fast.
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November 24th, 2014, 03:00 PM | #30 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
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just don't add lean and gas at the same time. it makes the rear spin up. even on a 250 if you are adding lean quick enough. doing steering movements takes weight from the rear and puts it up front. so getting grabby with the gas especially in the smaller gears will make it easy to slide the rear. i've crashed twice now because of this.
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November 24th, 2014, 03:01 PM | #31 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
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That is definitely a really easy way to crash, I've gotten the rear to step out doing that
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November 24th, 2014, 03:01 PM | #32 | |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
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Quote:
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November 24th, 2014, 03:02 PM | #33 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
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i'm really bad at rear wheel traction.
i'm always doing stupid burnouts on the 600 instead of wheelies. and in the rain it looks like i'm a drifter. i dont try to make it happen though so its not a good thing. if it was intentional i'd be badass.
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November 24th, 2014, 03:02 PM | #34 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
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straight line acceleration isn't the issue, I know they're torque monsters. They just drag hard parts way too early, or at least look like they will. I know better than to underestimate vehicles though, anything can go fast with the right person riding/driving.
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November 24th, 2014, 03:06 PM | #36 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
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I've never seen a japanese bike being used, but I was going for the overall balance. I believe a zx10r can be faster on public roads than a zx14r with the exclusion of highways. Both would be blisteringly fast though
nice deleted post alex
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November 24th, 2014, 04:46 PM | #37 |
sammich maker
Name: snot
Location: West Ohio - in the kitchen
Join Date: Feb 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2013 white 300, 09 KLX 250 SF, 09 thunder blue 250(traded) Posts: A lot.
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Seriously.. he teaches at the airport, class is for 2 weeks. The first thing they learn is how to pick up the bike, everyone drops it at least once. Last year a guy put his foot down while going down, he ran over his own foot with the foot rest, fractured ankle. He is also one of the officers that go to DC for the motor brocade for the president and... he was part of the motor brocade when the pope when to the final four
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November 24th, 2014, 09:18 PM | #38 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
In essence, getting the bike turned slowly describes a decreasing radius turn (entering trajectory) from vertical to completely leaned. It is almost painful observing the time that it takes to most street riders to lean their bikes in traffic. I understand that normal street conditions do not justify quick flicks, but it is wise just to practice as mush as possible, getting ready because some emergency situations will do. I also understand that MSF basic courses teach quick swerving, but that is a totally different technique. In that case, the bike flicks back and forth under the rider (who remains more or less vertical), so the relatively small change in direction has less inertia and can be completed quickly. Quick flick means that you are assertively commanding the machine for transitioning from a rectilinear movement to a circular one as quickly as possible, so bigger circles are not described in such transition.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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November 24th, 2014, 10:12 PM | #39 |
.
Name: .
Location: .
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Reminds me of:
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November 24th, 2014, 10:13 PM | #40 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
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who knew riding bikes would have anything to do with the fibonacci sequence at any point.
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