How do I corner better with a squirrely passenger?

[MrAtom]

I ride with my sister to school when she needs a ride, and she doesn't like it when I flick the bike around in my lane to get an idea of what she feels like back there. And a few times I've taken corners "hard" and she's resisted and leaned the opposite direction and I've had to go hardass knee-down mode just to keep us from crashing. I've been with her on the bike before, we took it slowly at her pace, and I've been riding with her for a while now, but she just can't seem to handle cornering. I've showed her all the sciency stuff behind it, and tried to get her to understand, but she doesn't care. I don't want her to miss class because she doesn't have a ride, and I enjoy my motorcycle. How do I either corner better with her on the bike, or get her more comfortable with going into turns (latter preferred)?

And yes, she's wearing gear, before the ATGATT Mormons come knocking on my door

[SLOWn60]

What does your signature say?
There's only two correct answers:
Slow down to the point your passenger is comfortable and safe or don't give them a ride.

[psych0hans]

Have you considered tie downs?

[verboten1]

If someone won't sit still on my bike, they don't sit on my bike any more.

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

What does your signature say?
There's only two correct answers:
Slow down to the point your passenger is comfortable or don't give them a ride.

This.

Drive so your passenger is comfortable. Both your lives depend on it.

What you have is a trust issue, your sister does not trust your high speed driving. The only way to regain her trust is to ride in a manner that doesn't induce fear in her.

[sh123469]

Like everybody else said.

Either don't give her a ride or slow down until she's ok with the ride.
She is resisting because she's scared. She doesn't like the high speed twitchy maneuvers. Allow a little more time and ride more slowly and methodically so she knows what maneuvers are coming and can prepare for them.

Your safety and hers depends on her being comfortable with the ride too. Fighting with your passenger over which way the bike should go is a recipe for a disaster.

I tell every passenger I take on my bike that if I am going too fast or scaring them to let me know and I'll do everything I can to make them comfortable. I have been asked to slow down a couple of times and don't turn so quick a couple of times. But those riders don't have a problem getting back on the bike and taking off with me cause they know I respect their feelings about the ride. I also tell them how moving around moves the bike around too and ask them to keep it to a minimum. To date, I have only one person who is such a danger to us both that this person doesn't ride at all, ever.

Do your sister a solid and take her feelings and needs into account on your next ride.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

I ride with my sister to school when she needs a ride, and she doesn't like it when I flick the bike around in my lane to get an idea of what she feels like back there........ I've been riding with her for a while now, but she just can't seem to handle cornering. I've showed her all the sciency stuff behind it, and tried to get her to understand, but she doesn't care........... How do I either corner better with her on the bike, or get her more comfortable with going into turns (latter preferred)?

Lean angle and quick flick is what scares her.
She has a sense of vertical balance that you upset when suddenly pushing bike and sister onto a lean angle.
That is something that children don't have (I became a passenger at 5 years of age and never gave any problem), but it grows older with age.
The more difficult passengers are aged ones.

Consider that leaning angle is proportional to speed.
If your speed decreases, then there is no need for quick flicking the bike.
Besides, the bike has more inertia and in order to ride with your habitual agility, your inputs on the handlebar, brakes and throttle must be stronger.

The problem with that is that weight distribution is way far from the ideal 60/40: the rear tire and suspension are overloaded, while the font end is not.
Both the rake angle and trail of the front suspension increase.
In those conditions, steering is prone to developing oscillations or tank-slappers and it can even feel light and vague while riding uphill with a passenger.

Going uphill or downhill, exacerbates the difference in weight distribution.
Braking technique should be very different in each case.

In other words, you cannot expect the normal level of performance from any of your contact patches.
Like when riding on wet pavement, smooth transitions and moderate speeds are advisable when riding two-up.







Copied from
http://www.soundrider.com/archive/sa...-braking3.aspx

"Braking with a passenger

Braking technique needs to change as the load on the bike changes. Extra load on the bike, whether traveling gear or a passenger, adds forward energy to the bike that needs to be decelerated. Most importantly, additional weight on the rear wheel increases rear tire traction, and the change in front/rear weight bias requires a change in braking technique.

A passenger's weight is typically high on the bike, and that results in greater transfer of forward energy onto the front wheel. Hard front braking is still possible, but more braking will be required on the rear wheel when carrying a passenger.

The limiting factor in aggressive braking with a passenger may not be the brakes or tires, but how well the passenger is able to resist the deceleration. The passenger may not be prepared for a quick stop, and there is little to brace against even if the he or she is aware of the situation. As the rider applies the brakes aggressively, the passenger slams forward into the rider's back. Or, more correctly, the bike pushes the rider back into the passenger. At the point where the rider is being pushed up onto the tank by the passenger's inertia, the rider must ease off on braking in order to maintain control of the bike.

A touring bike with two riders plus gear might weigh a total of 1000 pounds, with a rear/front bias of perhaps 60/40. At the start of braking, rear tire braking could be 600 lb. and front braking 400 lb. But as braking increases to, say, 80% of available traction, the braking forces might be around 200/600 rear/front. A heavier passenger will have greater forward energy, and push even harder into the rider."

[Rifleman]

1. slow down until the pillion feels confident

2. ride more often with the pillion so that they build the same confidence in the rubber and pilot skills.

3. I instruct all my noob pillions to stay in the middle, don't lean either way. And to scream if they want to go faster

4. Track day, two up, remember how much you learned the first day on the track, your pillion will learn just as much.

only thing more nutter then driving a MotoGP bike... is being second seater on one




Grip and ride handles belt will help a pillion feel less "helpless" (and protect your kidneys if you pull a stunt that gets you a few punches) Can be worn in the front for hyper sport set ups, or in the back for a less aggressive seated stance.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

How do I either corner better with her on the bike, or get her more comfortable with going into turns (latter preferred)?

The exact same way you did, by slowly building up confidence. Your ride is a commute, treat it as such. If you want her to get accustom to cornering, then you know what you have to do.

Performance oriented riding with a passenger is no joke. Even when we do it on the track, we respect our passenger's limits. A few taps from the passenger to indicate "that is fast enough" is all we need and sometimes... like you have felt, when they fight the flow of the ride, THAT is the limit even if they don't tap out.

/tip Many times, just a bit of extra communication can make a world of difference and eliminate the "I didn't know what to do" situations that lead to the passenger not flowing with the bike.

Good luck and keep it fun and safe.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

I ride with my sister to school when she needs a ride, and she doesn't like it when I flick the bike around in my lane to get an idea of what she feels like back there. And a few times I've taken corners "hard" and she's resisted and leaned the opposite direction and I've had to go hardass knee-down mode just to keep us from crashing. I've been with her on the bike before, we took it slowly at her pace, and I've been riding with her for a while now, but she just can't seem to handle cornering. I've showed her all the sciency stuff behind it, and tried to get her to understand, but she doesn't care. I don't want her to miss class because she doesn't have a ride, and I enjoy my motorcycle. How do I either corner better with her on the bike, or get her more comfortable with going into turns (latter preferred)?

And yes, she's wearing gear, before the ATGATT Mormons come knocking on my door

If its gotten to that point, you have a serious problem. I would have pulled over and discussed what just happened. Why even corner "hard" with a passenger? A bike like the Ninja handles terrible 2-up compared to what you are used to - especially braking and cornering.

You are in control, and control the pace. She is not comfortable with the pace you set, and is working against you - which is super dangerous for both of you.

You need to dial it back from your normal 7/10s (or whatever) to 4 or 5/10s when she is your passenger or something bad is going to happen.

[spooph]

agree with all the advice, here's something you can try with her:

Ride in a straight line, first at 20mph, then at 30, 40, 50, etc. Ease your grip to really light on the handle bars, and have her lean left to right so she can she how much control she has on the bike.

Then have her keep her head in line with yours and swerve back and forth, first slowly, and as she gains comfort, faster/further.

I've found the quickest way to get a passenger comfortable is to get them to enjoy the lean. I've scared my wife too, quickly apologized and spent some time helping her get more comfortable.

Best of luck, and don't be a dick, even if she's your sister.

[Bigballsofpaint]

The only advice I can give that differs from whats been said previously, buy a Bluetooth headset for both of you. My fiancé was very similar on our rides, I wouldn't go super fast, but even at a comfortable pace for me it was too fast for her and I would feel the bike fighting int he turns. We would get to a stop sign and I tell her do this, do that, but it all went out the window in the next turn if she didn't feel comfortable. S

Since we both have headsets now we can talk real time, I can tell her mid corner, lean more and she does. Or don't lean that way and she will stop, it has made riding together much more enjoyable, and much safer. After a corner you can ask, now didn't that feel better, or good job, etc.

[Rifleman]

remember if "feels" like 2x the speed from the pillion seat.

Most sport bikes, the pillion seat is higher then the pilots

The TL is REALLY bad for this, the lean and speed they feel from back there is amplified 2x or 3x times.

to really understand the "OMG, I'm going to die" feeling of the pillion seat, you have to take a ride back there. Get a good friend who is willing to carve some blacktop with you on the back... If you aren't shaking and hyperventilating after a jaunt through the curvies, you don't value your life and skin as much as most.

if memory serves, back in the day, for side car racing, the pilot got a trophy, the "monkey" didn't. Most would agree, that it should have been the other way round.

[SLOWn60]

LOL! You beat me to it, @Rifleman.
I was going to say there's a third answer:

[VaFish]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

The only advice I can give that differs from whats been said previously, buy a Bluetooth headset for both of you. My fiancé was very similar on our rides, I wouldn't go super fast, but even at a comfortable pace for me it was too fast for her and I would feel the bike fighting int he turns. We would get to a stop sign and I tell her do this, do that, but it all went out the window in the next turn if she didn't feel comfortable. S

Since we both have headsets now we can talk real time, I can tell her mid corner, lean more and she does. Or don't lean that way and she will stop, it has made riding together much more enjoyable, and much safer. After a corner you can ask, now didn't that feel better, or good job, etc.

I was just coming back here to suggest this.

The Blue Tooth Headsets are fantastic. I use them with my 2 kids (16 and 19) that are learning to ride.

[Brother Michigan]

Something that helped me with my girlfriend is telling her to look through the turns just like you're taught to do in the BRC.

[Sirref]

just do this and you'll be fine

Link to original page on YouTube.

seriously though, riding 2up at pace is terrifying, remember that your passenger's idea of fast is very different from your idea of fast

[MrAtom]

I'm a pretty slow rider when commuting, anyway. I'm not intentionally trying to rattle her, and I'm doing my best to respect her, but when my commute to school becomes MUCH longer in the car than on the bike, I have a problem with it. I'm going to see about a Bluetooth headset. I like that idea. I think I'll also take her to a parking lot so we can scrape my pegs at a slow, controlled pace. Maybe that'd help her. Thanks for all the advice/accusations

[choneofakind]

Ever consider maybe you just suck and aren't ready for passengers? Both skill level and responsibility level? For gods sake, she's related to you, forget how long it takes you to get from A to B.

If your passenger is tapping out, that's all on you. You need to educate her and work with her. Pull over real time and work on stuff as it happens. Have you considered letting her pilot it so she knows what it feels like and can understand what you're experiencing when she rides on back?


Scraping pegs at a slow pace. Ha. Still wrong, but a step in the right direction. Other thing to consider: maybe she's just not a performance rider and will never be comfortable with it leaned. That's something you cant change.

[VaFish]

Another thing is many pillion riders do not feel as comfortable on sport bikes as they do on a cruiser or touring bike with a backrest.

When I had my Honda Blackbird I had a removeable rear rack with a back rest built in. The wife and kids were much more comfortable with it. Without the backrest they were terrified of falling off the back of the bike as I accelerated.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

What does your signature say?
There's only two correct answers:
Slow down to the point your passenger is comfortable or don't give them a ride.

I couldn't imagine him going too fast since it's a 250 with 2 people on it (i'd imagine combine weigh close to 300lbs) When I rode 2 up on my 250 the bike was not very peppy at all. I mean prius' were passing us with ease lol.

I do agree that maybe OP should take his sister to a parking lot or something of that nature to get her more familiar with the bike.

[Ghostt]

Or maybe his passenger just isn't a motorcycle type person?

I've ridden a bunch with 2 up, and some like it, some love it, and some just don't, and nothing you can do as the operator to change their minds.

I personally change my style of riding, as you must do with any passenger.

[snot]

the advanced riders course (ohio) also allows passengers. It helps them know what to do and not do.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by snot

the advanced riders course (ohio) also allows passengers. It helps them know what to do and not do.

Good idea, and maybe sign her up to take the basic course as well, then she might get her own bike

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Ever consider maybe you just suck and aren't ready for passengers? Both skill level and responsibility level? For gods sake, she's related to you, forget how long it takes you to get from A to B.

If your passenger is tapping out, that's all on you. You need to educate her and work with her. Pull over real time and work on stuff as it happens. Have you considered letting her pilot it so she knows what it feels like and can understand what you're experiencing when she rides on back?


Scraping pegs at a slow pace. Ha. Still wrong, but a step in the right direction. Other thing to consider: maybe she's just not a performance rider and will never be comfortable with it leaned. That's something you cant change.

I started to point out all the willful ignorance in your post, but then I remembered who was posting it and realized that there's no getting though to you and erased it all.

But, strawmanning aside, it's possible I'm not ready for passengers skillwise, but something to consider is that I don't think I've really gone over 35 degrees when turning. That's not "performance" riding. A Razor scooter is a more dangerous form of transportation. I don't consider myself a performance rider, either.

Also, I don't think I've mentioned, she hasn't complained to me. I've talked with her before and told her that she can't be moving around, and all she says is "Oh okay." She claims she isn't uncomfortable, but she clearly is.

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Or maybe his passenger just isn't a motorcycle type person?

I've ridden a bunch with 2 up, and some like it, some love it, and some just don't, and nothing you can do as the operator to change their minds.

I personally change my style of riding, as you must do with any passenger.

If I rode the way I did with my sister on the back, I'd commute by bicycle everywhere instead. I've had a few people on my bike and I do whatever they're comfortable with and run over some protocol before we ride so they know how to communicate "go faster" "pull over" "slow down" etc. I had one girl who was cool with whatever I did. She was pretty fearless, and she was also so small that I hardly noticed her back there. It's amazing how little 80lbs feels compared to some other people haha.

[SLOWn60]

I modified my first post to "comfortable and safe"
Your sister may be one of those passengers that will always be a danger to herself and you no matter what speed you're travelling or say to her. You may just have to refuse to give her a ride. Perhaps after a refusal or two; she may begin to appreciate you are serious that she can't be moving around.
What surprises me is how many people WILL get on the back of a nutbars bike! (I'm NOT implying that is you!)
Good luck! I hope the two of you can figure it out, ride safe and enjoy the trips!

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

What surprises me is how many people WILL get on the back of a nutbars bike! (I'm NOT implying that is you!)
Good luck! I hope the two of you can figure it out, ride safe and enjoy the trips!

Well, nutbar isn't entirely incorrect. Just not with a passenger haha.

[Kevin1956]

This may sound like the stupidest or goofiest answer, but it's the way I explained it to my wife (ex wife) years ago. She thought we would fall over into the lean of the turn. Open your washing machine while it's on the spin cycle. Stick a pencil in the safety switch, so the machine keeps spinning with the wet clothes. Explain the concept of centrifugal force. Let her know that if her weight leaves the confines of the "tub", everything goes flying out, nothing works right. Let her know that if she leans away from the turn, she's fighting you making the turn. It helped her very much to stay in line with me in the turn. After that, there was never a problem. Teach her it's important to keep her butt, shoulders and head aligned with yours. It worked. It got to the point we could ride, and it was like she wasn't even there. This may be the simplest way to explain it. Trust me, it worked.

[MrAtom]

Interesting and original idea. Thank you

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

It's possible I'm not ready for passengers skillwise, but something to consider is that I don't think I've really gone over 35 degrees when turning. That's not "performance" riding. A Razor scooter is a more dangerous form of transportation. I don't consider myself a performance rider, either.

35 degrees is a lot of lean for someone that is not accustomed to riding. (that angle is likely much less than what you think because the butt-angle-sensor is even less accurate than the butt-dyno.) Thinking back to when I started riding, it took a long time to get used to how the bike felt while leaned, and I came from road biking background. Like thousands of miles.

"Performance" and "too fast" are all relative. If you're leaning at all to keep any amount of speed through a corner, that's "performance" riding to the uninitiated like your sister, even though it may just be an average intersection to most of us.

As the pilot of someone who's nervous and acting in a way that puts the both of you at risk, it's your responsibility to either ride in a way that makes her less nervous, or don't give her rides.

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Also, I don't think I've mentioned, she hasn't complained to me. I've talked with her before and told her that she can't be moving around, and all she says is "Oh okay." She claims she isn't uncomfortable, but she clearly is.

Instead of telling her to stop moving around, start by having her look into corners with you. Point to apex and then exit as you cruise through turns at a slower speed than normal so she gets an idea where she should look without having speed be a concern. Then discuss using her outside foot to steady her weight rather than the inside. Not saying she has to hang off back there, just hold her weight with the outside foot so she doesn't stand the bike up. That's something productive for her to do and learn rather than just "don't move around back there". It's a start in the right direction.

The washing machine explanation Kevin talked about is interesting and may work. Not entirely perfect on the physics, but it should get the point across to someone who's not tied up in the intricacies of detail. That's worth a shot too.

Are helmet coms an option? Does she at least have some gear so she's not so hesitant?

[choneofakind]

FWIW: Scraping pegs on streets is not a desirable goal, it's just an indicator that something has to change for that scenario. It could be your riding style or body position or whatever, something has to change.

Should not be doing that on street if you're leaving yourself a safety window. That's all.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Does she at least have some gear so she's not so hesitant?

OP states ATGATT for her. And yes, one person's too fast is another's riders causal cruise.

It seems we have focused quite a bit on the passenger, and frankly... it's kinda beat to death at this point. Let's focus on the pilot for bit.

So MrAtom is putting inputs into the bike that make the passenger resist the flow. Fine... My wife used to be a terrible passenger, doing all kinds of things to mess with my flow. She counter leaned soo much one time I had to get off the seat to balance things out. She freaked... "why did you get out of the seat?!?!?!?!" How does this relate to your situation?

Smoothness... a vague topic yes, but I had to alter my inputs to the bike to be less abrupt. Just like the pilot, when the riding becomes more intense, be mindful of the forces being felt. For example, brakes are less confidence inspiring than the throttle. Lean while on the gas feels better than lean on the brakes. As the pilot, make those transitions as smooth as possible, the clutch is your friend here. If you have the confidence to take a corner faster than the passenger, fine... get your jollies off on exit vs entrance. There will be less lean and that lean will be while on the throttle vs the brakes. Alter your riding to replace as much negative feeling forces with positive feeling forces, be very smooth with your transitions and your passenger will be happier.

Passengers fighting the bike is completely normal, the fear is completely normal, the secret is for you to adjust your riding to instill your passenger's confidence in YOU, then confidence in the bike, lean, ect will follow suit.

[Motofool]

Where she looks at is a very important point discussed above.

She may now be looking at the rapidly passing-by asphalt over the side that you, the bike and her are "falling onto."

If she closes her eyes while she rides as a passenger, she will not be able to feel other thing than the wind and the inertial forces (acceleration, deceleration and increased weight when leaned).

You don't have control over the wind, but you do over the smoothness and abruptness with which your passenger feels the transitions among those inertial forces.

There is no reality in Psychology, only perception.
Her sensation of falling over is just that, a perception of her eyes and preconceptions/instincts.

Ask her to close her eyes for a few corners and to tell you the difference.
Then, ask her to look as far away ahead as she can, resisting the urge of looking down and next to her.

Bonus tip: It will be hard for her to move around while she is hugging your torso tightly.

[bdavison]

To be perfectly honest....and blunt.

If she can't get with the program, then she can go get her own bike before she kills both of you.

A rear seat rider that is leaning off in the opposite direction of a corner is gonna get you both killed. It doesn't matter if it's 25mph or 70mph....the bike wont turn like that.

[twincam8888]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

Something that helped me with my girlfriend is telling her to look through the turns just like you're taught to do in the BRC.

Exactly keeps her from leaning the wrong way too.

[csmith12]

Welcome Steve!

[VaFish]

When my kids were smaller and rode on the back they had a tendency to move around. There wasn't much for them to hold onto and their arms were too short to reach around me.

One thing that really helps keep a passenger with the rider is if the passenger hugs the rider. That keeps their bodies together.

Your sister may not want to do the full body hug with you, here is an option.

When my kids were young I made a belt with hand grips on each side of me from a black military pistol belt. That gave them something solid to hold onto at my hips and kept them in line with me.

Looks like there are commercial versions now.

[Ghostt]

Another option I was considering was one of these, but I don't ride 2up that often, and it would interfere with my tankbag which I use often.

Link to original page on YouTube.

http://www.motorcycle-grips.com/moto...nger-grip.html

http://www.motorcycle-grips.com/kawa...andle-bar.html

[Khan]

The advice given by a lot of the members is pretty good. I will narrate my personal experience with my wife. She would squirm away when I would filter lanes with her at stopped lights to get to the front. What she didnt know was that I had to counter her squirming (as subtle as it was) by steering the bike bc there wasnt much space in between the stopped cars to begin with. So, I did what someone else suggested. When I was on an empty road, I asked her to shift her weight from foot to foot and notice the bike change direction. That helped her understand how much impact her movement can have. Also told her to look where we wanted to go.
That being said, she was eager to learn and is quite fearless by nature. Some people take more time.
Finally, if I was in your position I would just ask my sister what would make her more comfortable and do just that. I wouldnt feel just in forcing her to enjoy what I enjoy. Everyone should be entitled to their choices